Must The Book Of Mormon Be A Historical Text?

[cdowis]

The first thing you should know as someone outside of Mormonism is that Mormons don't follow the Book of Mormon and have been cursed (i.e. condemned) for not "doing" what it says (D&C 84:54-57)

 

There's was a promise that "if" those who received the Book of Mormon were faithful to it, they would be given additional ancient writings. This unfortunately never materialize. [No doubt those additional writings contained directions as to where archaeological proofs could be found.]

So the Book of Abraham, the book of Moses are not "ancient writings"?

 

Methinks you are confused.

Edited August 26, 2013 by cdowis

[Rivers]

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Edited August 26, 2013 by Rivers

[Rivers]

Can anyone show me the site of ONE Nephite City? Just one?

With populations in the millions there must be something left for archaeologists to find. After all, they have found campsites and wintering camps of Indian villages of a hundred or less that are much older than the Book of Mormon peoples. They have found hundreds of remnants of the Norse village in Greenland from a group fewer than a 6,000 people. At least 400 farms hve been identified.

All these locations and remnants from fewer than 6,000 people yet not one site from hundreds of thousands of Book of Mormon people - a people with advanced metallurgy, silk, horses and wheeled chariots.

As for the Book of Mormon, it is not history and the Fiction section(or religious fiction) is where it belongs.

It belongs in the religion section.

[cdowis]

Can anyone show me the site of ONE Nephite City? Just one?

 

 

It would be helpful if you could give us the actual names of ancient cities in mesoamerica?  In case you are unaware, the archeological sites are given modern names because the ancient names are largely unknown.

 

Now, there is one interesting exception -- in Belize there is an authentic city name of Lamanai, and we find the same name of a Lamanite king in the BOM.  The BOM also tells us that cities were named after personal names.

Edited August 26, 2013 by cdowis

[Robert F. Smith]

 

You could start by producing any location of one of the great cities of the Book of Mormon civilizations.

The book is supposed to be a record of certain civilizations. ALL civilizations leave a footprint on the land they occupy. It should be relatively easy for archaeologists to produce something from where these people lived and died.

This is the sort of statement one frequently hears from non-archeologists and assorted anti-intellectuals who have no idea what is and is not known about  Book of Mormon civilizations in an ancient American context,.  Since that is your presumed interest here, you might want to read John L. Sorenson's massive and detailed Mormon's Codex (now in press at Deseret Book).  A Preview of the contents is available at http://www.scribd.com/doc/161857993/MORMON-S-CODEX-PREVIEW .

 

If that is too difficult, why not get the bones of the Great White Lamanite Warrior I am named after(and who was the topic of a Sacrament Meeting talk last week in our Ward) and test them for DNA studies? It is one skeleton positively identified by Joseph Smith as a Lamanite and DNA testing would be of interest to many of us.

Nice idea.  The DNA testing of ancient skeletal remains is of great interest to archeologists (anthropologists), but is prohibited in the USA by a Federal law termed NAGPRA.  However, scientists are not prevented from testing elsewhere, and should be widely used in Mesoamerica.

 

I will add in that our local public Library has moved the Book of Mormon from the Religion section to the Fiction shelves. Religious fiction to be sure, but the move is troubling for some of our members who are trying to figure out how to get it put back.

The atavistic behavior of anti-Mormon or anti-intellectual librarians is of no relevance to the questions you pose.

[helaman38]

Can anyone show me the site of ONE Nephite City? Just one?

 

With populations in the millions there must be something left for archaeologists to find. After all, they have found campsites and wintering camps of Indian villages of a hundred or less that are much older than the Book of Mormon peoples. They have found hundreds of remnants of the Norse village in Greenland from a group fewer than a 6,000 people. At least 400 farms hve been identified.

 

All these locations and remnants from fewer than 6,000 people yet not one site from hundreds of thousands of Book of Mormon people - a people with advanced metallurgy, silk, horses and wheeled chariots.

 

As for the Book of Mormon, it is not history and the Fiction section(or religious fiction) is where it belongs.

 

Careful, the truth of your views is showing a little. Just remember, the Book of Mormon prophesied that little Colonial America would become the greatest nation on earth and it indeed came to pass. If you analyze BoM prophecies you will come away a believer.

[foster]

Can anyone show me the site of ONE Nephite City? Just one?

 

 

As for the Book of Mormon, it is not history and the Fiction section(or religious fiction) is where it belongs.

 

Zelp, undoubtedly, you read Smoot piece "The Imperative for a Historical Book of Mormon", the piece is not about "See this glyph, it is the name of Lehi, and this one is 'Brother of Jared'". 

[Robert F. Smith]

Can anyone show me the site of ONE Nephite City? Just one?

 

With populations in the millions there must be something left for archaeologists to find. After all, they have found campsites and wintering camps of Indian villages of a hundred or less that are much older than the Book of Mormon peoples. They have found hundreds of remnants of the Norse village in Greenland from a group fewer than a 6,000 people. At least 400 farms hve been identified.

Naturally you would discount the Icelandic sagas were it not for the discovery and archeological verification that they had settlements in Greenland.  Perhaps you still discount the Viking tales of visiting North America -- also proven archeologically, but something of which you appear to be unaware.

 

All these locations and remnants from fewer than 6,000 people yet not one site from hundreds of thousands of Book of Mormon people - a people with advanced metallurgy, silk, horses and wheeled chariots.

 

As for the Book of Mormon, it is not history and the Fiction section(or religious fiction) is where it belongs.

As pointed out decades ago by John L. Sorenson, the specific areas populated by millions of Jaredites, Nephites, and Lamanites is fairly certain, not only because the archeological sequences of the Olmec and subsequent cultures match up so well with those of Book of Mormon cultures, but also because the geography and singular technical capacities of these cultures appear nowhere else in the Americas.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[thesometimesaint]

That's a good point about Troy and many other cities of the Bible. Regarding where events in the Book of Mormon took place, we have it from the prophet himself and Moroni that Cumorah is in Palmyra and the final battle took place north of the hill there. Having said that, the gold record itself IS proof, it was physical and was attested to by MANY witnesses. 

 

So, in western NY we have the following proofs so far: cement (the box where the plates were laid) and gold (what the record was written on) and Moroni calling the area "Cumorah." There are not two Cumorahs, just one as President Joseph Fielding Smith taught.

 

What we also have after 2,000 years are the fortifications as described in the Book of Mormon. They are all over western NY and mounds full of the bones of giants and artifacts including a copper engraving of a mastodon in a harness pulling a plow.

 

We have no such thing. JS was undecided about the location.

http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/ash-Where_Did_the_Book_of_Mormon_Take_Place.pdf

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/New_World/Great_Lakes_geography/Mound_Builders

 

Evidences for Mesoamerica

http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

 

It wasn't made of cement it was made of stone.

http://www.mormonfortress.com/boxmetal.html

 

The only known ancient cities in the Americas made of cement are in Mesoamerica.

http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/kusx6iod/146%20Cement%20in%20Ancient%20America.htm?n=0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_architecture

 

The Mound Builders fortificaions of the central US are nothing like those discribed in the Book of Mormon.

http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/4qimqkix/JOSEPH%20SMITH%20AND%20THE%20PREHISTORIC%20MOUND.htm?n=0

[Robert F. Smith]

More than likely if it is part of a public system as it would have been given the classification to be used when receiving the book (at least that is what the three libraries I've worked or volunteered in did).  

The Library of Congress has a standard classification system which does not place the Book of Mormon in any fiction section.  Nearly all public libraries follow that LC system religiously.

[TAO]

Have you read the Book of Mormon, I mean all of it and prayed and asked God if it contains the complete gospel of Jesus Christ? Please understand that baptism is for those who need to repent:

 

Yes, I have read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it.  But where I received my biggest witness was in the temple.  And for that reason, I know I have to trust in the Spirit more than any piece of literature, regardless of how inspired it is.  The Spirit is my key form of knowledge, and though books can be useful, they do not dominate the Spirit's call.

 

 

 

When a person needs to repent and when the age of accountability begins are two entirely separate things. 

 

Why do Eight Year Olds not need to repent?  Do you not realize how conscious they are of their decisions?

 

 

 

Note, the curse was the result of not "doing" what the Book of Mormon said, not in sending more copies forth. I like the work of Royal Skousen and other professors.

 

I don't think there is a curse on the church.

[thesometimesaint]

Can anyone show me the site of ONE Nephite City? Just one?

 

With populations in the millions there must be something left for archaeologists to find. After all, they have found campsites and wintering camps of Indian villages of a hundred or less that are much older than the Book of Mormon peoples. They have found hundreds of remnants of the Norse village in Greenland from a group fewer than a 6,000 people. At least 400 farms hve been identified.

 

All these locations and remnants from fewer than 6,000 people yet not one site from hundreds of thousands of Book of Mormon people - a people with advanced metallurgy, silk, horses and wheeled chariots.

 

As for the Book of Mormon, it is not history and the Fiction section(or religious fiction) is where it belongs.

 

While not directly a Nephite city. NHM does qualify as a city visited by the Lehites. Also there are a couple of cities in mesoamerica described in the Book of Mormon.

 

As the Lamanites were anyone not a Nephite, and even those were just a political designation. How would we know it even if we found them?

 

The Book of Mormon doesn't claim advanced metallurgy, silk from silk worms, horses used for transportation, or wheeled chariots. Though they did know about the wheel.

 

Then you need to put all religious writings from every culture in the fiction section. I'm fine with that. Are you?

Edited August 26, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[mfbukowski]

If there were no Jaredites, Lamenites, or Nephites can the Church still go on? Must the Book of Mormon be a historical account of early civilizations for the Church to survive or for Joseph Smith to have restored the gospel? Can Joseph Smith be a Prophet if the "factual claims" in the Book of Mormon were not fact?

Would the creation story, Job, Jonah, the 10 plagues, provide a basis that not everything of God or written under the inspiration of God is actual historical fact?

It all depends on what you mean by "historical fact" but the answers to all these questions is "yes".

 

"Oswald killed Kennedy".  Fact or fiction?  It doesn't much matter- he is still just as dead as ever, and whoever did it is just as evil.  Facts don't matter much in moral teaching.

[mfbukowski]

Yes, absolutely.

 

If it's not, I'm outa here!

But that's unknowable, so you are on shaky ground anyway.  How do you know that Jesus saved you from sin?  Was that a historical fact?

 

Where's the proof that something called "sin" is even a historical reality?  If historical reality is so important to you, how can someone save you from something which doesn't exist as historically provable?

[mfbukowski]

I understand that it is not a history book, but wouldn't certain findings seriously bring to question 1)the validity of the prophet, and 2)the all important history of Christ and his appearances in the new world?

 

I ask out of pure ignorance because I don't know enough about the BofM or the Mormon faith to make this determination so please don't take this as any criticism, I genuinely want to know the answer.

 

Thanks.

OK then let's look at Catholicism or Christianity in general.

 

Does your salvation depend on the historical validity of the Bible?  Why not the Zoroastrian Avesta instead?  That is also a historical scripture and even older than the Bible.  So why not pray to Ahura Mazda if history is so important?

http://avesta.org/

Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)

"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.

[helaman38]

1. We have no such thing. JS was undecided about the location...

2. Evidences for Mesoamerica..It wasn't made of cement it was made of stone...

3. The only known ancient cities in the Americas made of cement are in Mesoamerica...

4. The Mound Builders fortificaions of the central US are nothing like those discribed in the Book of Mormon.

 

1. Joseph undecided? Not hardly, he said the record was about "our western tribes of indians" and the final battle was in Palmyra, NY.

 

2. The stones were "set in cement." Where did Moroni get ready made cement in western NY? There was plenty because that's where BoM lands are.

 

3. All cement building tumbled at the coming of Jesus therefore those cement/plaster cities in Mesoamerica could not possibly be BoM cities.

 

4. I am not defending central U.S., just western NY, and yes, their ancient dirt palisades are precisely as described in the BoM and Mesoamerican has nothing but motes which don't remotely resemble what is desribed, sorry to disappoint.

[ZelphtheGreat]

While not directly a Nephite city. NHM does qualify as a city visited by the Lehites. Also there are a couple of cities in mesoamerica described in the Book of Mormon.

 

As the Lamanites were anyone not a Nephite, and even those were just a political designation. How would we know it even if we found them?

 

The Book of Mormon doesn't claim advanced metallurgy, silk from silk worms, horses used for transportation, or wheeled chariots. Though they did know about the wheel.

 

Then you need to put all religious writings from every culture in the fiction section. I'm fine with that. Are you?

 

------------------------------

 

A Political Designation? With the curse of the dark skin so they would not be 'enticing' to the Nephites?

 

Once again, NO Nephite Civilization, city or remains have been found anywhere .

 

Defending myths must be tiring and lying to ones self about it even moreso.

 

If the Book of Mormon were true and historical we would have evidence for it in many forms just as we do for the Bible.

[helaman38]

 

If the Book of Mormon were true and historical we would have evidence for it in many forms just as we do for the Bible.

 

The Book of Mormon is a prized possession and I for one am glad that God has not let evidence to come forth as too many people would be without excuse and damned. Already Latter-day Saints have been cursed (i.e. condemned) for not following its teachings, could you imagine the whole world coming under condemnation for not believing it? 

[Questing Beast]

The Book of Mormon is a prized possession and I for one am glad that God has not let evidence to come forth as too many people would be without excuse and damned. Already Latter-day Saints have been cursed (i.e. condemned) for not following its teachings, could you imagine the whole world coming under condemnation for not believing it? 

Nope. I have no idea what that "condemnation" would look like. We are already condemned to ignorance about practically everything. I think that if there were genuine physical proof that Lehites existed as described in the BoM, the only argument would be over how the book got here, not over it being a historical record by a religious people....

[canard78]

I've got to ask, was I ever as hysterical as ZelphtheGreat during my "you don't like me when I'm angry" phase? If so, first: apologies and second thanks for your patience and persistence.

What with him and Helaman on the thread it's getting decidedly surreal.

[Kenngo1969]

The Library of Congress has a standard classification system which does not place the Book of Mormon in any fiction section.  Nearly all public libraries follow that LC system religiously.  [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

Pun intended?   (Sorry; couldn't resist!)

[Calm]

I've got to ask, was I ever as hysterical as ZelphtheGreat during my "you don't like me when I'm angry" phase? If so, first: apologies and second thanks for your patience and persistence.

What with him and Helaman on the thread it's getting decidedly surreal.

No, you weren't...

[thesometimesaint]

1. Joseph undecided? Not hardly, he said the record was about "our western tribes of indians" and the final battle was in Palmyra, NY.

 

2. The stones were "set in cement." Where did Moroni get ready made cement in western NY? There was plenty because that's where BoM lands are.

 

3. All cement building tumbled at the coming of Jesus therefore those cement/plaster cities in Mesoamerica could not possibly be BoM cities.

 

4. I am not defending central U.S., just western NY, and yes, their ancient dirt palisades are precisely as described in the BoM and Mesoamerican has nothing but motes which don't remotely resemble what is desribed, sorry to disappoint.

 

 

1. http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/ash-Where_Did_the_Book_of_Mormon_Take_Place.pdf

 

2. http://www.mormonfortress.com/boxmetal.html

 

3. Speculative at best.

 

4. http://www.thefurtrapper.com/mesoamerica.htm

http://www.scienceviews.com/squier/aboriginalmonumentsA-1.html

[Robert F. Smith]

Pun intended?   (Sorry; couldn't resist!)

You know it, man!  Glad you found it to be punny.

[cursor]

If there were no Jaredites, Lamenites, or Nephites can the Church still go on?

 

It might, but not credibly.

 

Must the Book of Mormon be a historical account of early civilizations for the Church to survive or for Joseph Smith to have restored the gospel?

 

Yes. Absolutely.

 

Can Joseph Smith be a Prophet if the "factual claims" in the Book of Mormon were not fact?

 

Nope. Not possible. 

 

However, the "fact" that one doesn't enjoy a full understanding of the written word, the ancient cultures with which it deals, or complexity of the the codex that is the Book of Mormon hardly precludes its veracity as a genuine, historical record. The world used to be flat, right? The sun used to revolve around the earth, right? All elements of the Book shouldn't/can't be decided by the current body of scientific knowledge. As that body continues to grow and new light is shed (discoveries made, and eyes widened), perspective becomes clearer.

Edited August 28, 2013 by cursor