Who Were The Jaredites

[Brant Gardner]

You said 

 

a) there is ample evidence that there were people of the culture level indicated in Ether who lived in the Gulf Coast region of Mexico,

b) there is evidence of warfare, though for a number of years it was less evident, and

c) there are (at least 4) credible archaeologists who believe this

 

I'd like to try and find their publications and read what they have to say.  What are their names?

Did I say that they wrote about the first two? However, John Clark has written a fair amount about the Olmec. Points a and b are independent of c.

[Gervin]

Did I say that they wrote about the first two? However, John Clark has written a fair amount about the Olmec. Points a and b are independent of c.

Well, what does "this" refer to?

("You might be surprised at the credible archaeologists who believe this")

Perhaps you're not being ubiquitous for any particular reason, but you'd certainly have the right to.

[helaman38]

Your "narrow neck" is the land that adheres to Niagara falls?? The first Nephites lived on an "isle of the sea", bounded by those lakes??? None of the subsequent textual use of "narrow neck" or "passage" that is bounded by east and west seas fits that spot. And you ignored Hagoth who had to build a very large ship and cram it with men and their families and sail off into the north and the unknown. The necessity of building ships in order to migrate is utterly non existent vis-a-vis the great lakes. Just take your packs and pack animals and start walking along the lake edge. Eventually you'll find a spot and spread out. Ship building is an arduous and enormous expense, necessary for ocean-going pilgrims, but not for land lubber Lehites. The text clearly signifies vast distances and months/years of travel time. Anyone can skitter across one of the great lakes in a matter of a few days and back again....

 

Now that was a laugh, no offense.  First, on which side of BoM lands do you imagine the Narrow Neck to be where Hagoth built ships and sailed north from?

 

Most modelers incorrectly place the Narrow Neck on the east in a warped hour glass figure leaving little room for a northward journey by boat. 

 

1. The correct lay of the land as described by Mormon is a land completely surrounded by water with a small narrow neck that could easily be blocked by poisonous snakes.

 

2. That Narrow Neck was located on the west of BoM lands, not the east.

 

3. The City of Bountiful was also on the west, not the east as most modelers incorrectly have it.

 

4. There must be plains from east to west along the line that Nephites used for travel from east to west and v.v. between the City of Bountiful and the City of Mulek. There are no such plains between the east and west anywhere but in western NY. In fact, they even built a rail road along it.

 

5. Next, there must be a natural harbor where Hagoth built and docked his large ships. Just so happens, right there north of Buffalo is a natural harbor with a pier called Black Rock and it is the same place they built and docked ships during colonial times but has since been destroyed.

 

6. There must be timber of a type that a person could use to build ships. All of which are still plentiful in western NY.

 

7. Hagoth sailed north up the Niagara Gorge and was not seen since. No doubt the Israelite dna found among the Ojibwa tribe came from Hagoth's people in Canada where he sailed to.

 

Of course the Niagara Falls did not exist until the after Christ.

[Anijen]

Of course the Niagara Falls did not exist until the after Christ.

I know what I said about not writing, but I couldn't help it.

 

helaman38 you have to be kidding, right? How do you accept the little amount absolute lack of archaeological evidence to support your theory (less than 2000 years old), but completely disregard the amount of evidence that shows the Falls were carved out from the Wisconsin glacial melting starting approx 22K years ago. As the melting occurred from 22k to about 12K years ago the river beds were carved and filled up and has been pouring over the falls since. The falls have moved via erosion however, the Falls at the youngest are 12K years old.

 

Your absolute posting of such an idea  is equal to priests in the 16th century refusing to look through a telescope because they refused to believe in anything but an earth centered universe. 

Edited August 28, 2013 by Anijen

[helaman38]

I know what I said about not writing, but I couldn't help it.

 

helaman38 you have to be kidding, right? How do you accept the little amount absolute lack of archaeological evidence to support your theory (less than 2000 years old), but completely disregard the amount of evidence that shows the Falls were carved out from the Wisconsin glacial melting starting approx 22K years ago. As the melting occurred from 22k to about 12K years ago the river beds were carved and filled up and has been pouring over the falls since. The falls have moved via erosion however, the Falls at the youngest are 12K years old.

 

Your absolute posting of such an idea  is equal to priests in the 16th century refusing to look through a telescope because they refused to believe in anything but an earth centered universe. 

 

There you go yet again demonstrating your preference for the arm of flesh rather than prophets of God. Joseph said the final Nephite battle was in Palmyra, why do you refuse to believe as him?

[rodheadlee]

There you go yet again demonstrating your preference for the arm of flesh rather than prophets of God. Joseph said the final Nephite battle was in Palmyra, why do you refuse to believe as him?

CFR. I'd like to read those words of Joseph Smith please. Were they second hand or his own words?

[Anijen]

There you go yet again demonstrating your preference for the arm of flesh rather than prophets of God. Joseph said the final Nephite battle was in Palmyra, why do you refuse to believe as him?

I am demonstrating no such thing. It appears whenever I show evidence to be against ones pet theory they question my faith. The two are different entities (spirituality and science). I am very faithful and I feel that I have been greatly blessed with such a desire to learn, I feel if I neglect my opportunities to learn then I am negating talents that I have been given and in doing so would not please God.

 

I do not refuse to believe him. I believe Joseph might have thought that to be true. I also know through study that Joseph was really excited about Mesoamerica and he regarded that area as also a true area for the people of the Book of Mormon. I know Joseph to be a prophet, but being a prophet does not make their opinions as divine revelation.

[Freedom]

It's the same Joseph who fell under the curse of condemnation wherein his mind "became darkened" for not having followed the Book of Mormon and it was under that darkened mind that he contradicted himself and not before. The further upstream you can go, the purer the water is!

Oh I see, you are fabricating history and doctrine in order to justify your beliefs.

[brightpath]

The Jaradites were ancient Hebrews that came from the old world during the Tower of Babel. They had white skin just like Lehi's group. They were not the Olmecs or Mayan. These 2 groups were the Lamanites.

[cdowis]

The Jaradites were ancient Hebrews that came from the old world during the Tower of Babel. They had white skin just like Lehi's group. They were not the Olmecs or Mayan. These 2 groups were the Lamanites.

 

1. The Jaredites were descendents of Abraham, but came from the Tower of Babel?

 

2. It appears that the Olmec civilization ended at about the same time as the Jaredites. 

 

You seem to have a problem with your time line.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

There you go yet again demonstrating your preference for the arm of flesh rather than prophets of God. Joseph said the final Nephite battle was in Palmyra, why do you refuse to believe as him?

Oh I am so convinced now. You are right the rest of us are wrong. Thank you for calling us to reprentance.

[Freedom]

The Jaradites were ancient Hebrews that came from the old world during the Tower of Babel. They had white skin just like Lehi's group. They were not the Olmecs or Mayan. These 2 groups were the Lamanites.

The Jaredites were not Hebrews, and Hebrews do not have white skin. The Olmecs are not a civilization, it is a style of art. Olmec is to Jaredite what baroque is to France.

[ERayR]

I am demonstrating no such thing. It appears whenever I show evidence to be against ones pet theory they question my faith. The two are different entities (spirituality and science). I am very faithful and I feel that I have been greatly blessed with such a desire to learn, I feel if I neglect my opportunities to learn then I am negating talents that I have been given and in doing so would not please God.

 

I do not refuse to believe him. I believe Joseph might have thought that to be true. I also know through study that Joseph was really excited about Mesoamerica and he regarded that area as also a true area for the people of the Book of Mormon. I know Joseph to be a prophet, but being a prophet does not make their opinions as divine revelation.

 

Don't you realize yet that to some Joseph was infallible and every idle speculation is doctrine?

[helaman38]

Don't you realize yet that to some Joseph was infallible and every idle speculation is doctrine?

 

There is a difference between which Josephs' words you choose to use - the young humble Joseph or the older arrogant Joseph.

 

The first official history of the church was produced before his mind became darkened by the curse of DC 84:54-57 so I would say go where the water is purest - upstream.

[ERayR]

There is a difference between which Josephs' words you choose to use - the young humble Joseph or the older arrogant Joseph.

 

The first official history of the church was produced before his mind became darkened by the curse of DC 84:54-57 so I would say go where the water is purest - upstream.

 

Or maybe young, bold and rash.  Or maybe he just liked to speculate like the rest of us.

[Freedom]

There is a difference between which Josephs' words you choose to use - the young humble Joseph or the older arrogant Joseph.

 

The first official history of the church was produced before his mind became darkened by the curse of DC 84:54-57 so I would say go where the water is purest - upstream.

Lets take a look at these verses:

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

So this condemnation rests upon the church, not Joseph Smith. But if we take your unjustified interpretation, it says that in times past so this would mean the early Joseph who presumed that the Nephite battle took place in New York. Your caricature of Joseph Smith is not supported by the facts, to such a degree that I am suspicious that you are trolling, and you are not an active member of the church at all.

[ERayR]

To address the question posed in the thread name I was wondering if maybe some of them were that large nomadic groupe that went through our area a few years back? 

[helaman38]

Lets take a look at these verses:

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

So this condemnation rests upon the church, not Joseph Smith. But if we take your unjustified interpretation, it says that in times past so this would mean the early Joseph who presumed that the Nephite battle took place in New York. Your caricature of Joseph Smith is not supported by the facts, to such a degree that I am suspicious that you are trolling, and you are not an active member of the church at all.

 

It's always a little entertaining to see how members react after reading they are under a curse from God. I think you ignored (or have a case of cognitive dissonance) the words "even all" which precludes the other response "well I'm not cause I follow the BoM"...right.

 

To be clear President Benson reiterated the fact that the WHOLE church was still condemned and I could cite a great many other church leaders who said the same. I've already said I had my name removed to get out from the curse - yes I took it that serious and you should too!

 

The fruit of Joseph is awful. No one can name the last time he performed a miracle or should we say manifested he had the Holy Spirit. The only thing we have is a man who was commanded to do nothing but a. dictate the English of the BoM and b. convince the world of the truth of it, not start a church. It's not my desire to sway anyone from the church, but I feel obligated to alert them to the curse. Please don't take offense, you are probably not ready to address the real truth yet. Hopefully you won't going into denial like the lifers here on this forum have done. Good luck!

[Freedom]

The fruit of Joseph is awful. No one can name the last time he performed a miracle or should we say manifested he had the Holy Spirit. The only thing we have is a man who was commanded to do nothing but a. dictate the English of the BoM and b. convince the world of the truth of it, not start a church. It's not my desire to sway anyone from the church, but I feel obligated to alert them to the curse. Please don't take offense, you are probably not ready to address the real truth yet. Hopefully you won't going into denial like the lifers here on this forum have done. Good luck!

oh good grief. You need to read some church history.

[Calm]

 

The fruit of Joseph is awful. No one can name the last time he performed a miracle....

What of the healings he performed in Nauvoo?

[Calm]

If JS was not to start a church, then wouldn't all the revelations he received after starting such be false revelations, including Sec 84 you based your claim on?

[helaman38]

What of the healings he performed in Nauvoo?

 

What healings? I truly would like to know if anyone looked into the matter and has identified the last direct miracle by Joseph. (I think I just gave some grad student a topic for their thesis, or "The documented miracles of Joseph Smith") Regardless, they should have been from time to time up until he died - unless he was a fallen prophet.

 

If JS was not to start a church, then wouldn't all the revelations he received after starting such be false revelations, including Sec 84 you based your claim on?

 

I could have taken that position but I simply say use discernment - if any revelation takes away from the gospel found in the BoM, it is not of God. That revelation returned focus to the BoM, therefore I believe they were inspired. Things like adding an age commandment for when children are to be baptized "for the remission of sins" and attaching polygamy to salvation are of course against the teachings of the BoM and have no other supports then themselves.

[Freedom]

I could have taken that position but I simply say use discernment - if any revelation takes away from the gospel found in the BoM, it is not of God. That revelation returned focus to the BoM, therefore I believe they were inspired. Things like adding an age commandment for when children are to be baptized "for the remission of sins" and attaching polygamy to salvation are of course against the teachings of the BoM and have no other supports then themselves.

So you treat the Book of Mormon they way evangelicals treat the bible. There is no more revelation, no more knowledge, no more than the basic precepts of the Book of Mormon. And you have doctrinal support for this where? Are you ever going to provide references for your claims?

[helaman38]

So you treat the Book of Mormon they way evangelicals treat the bible. There is no more revelation, no more knowledge, no more than the basic precepts of the Book of Mormon. And you have doctrinal support for this where? Are you ever going to provide references for your claims?

 

There are warnings by Jesus not to add to the doctrine that the Father gave. Understand, there is a difference between what the gospel says is required of us and gaining general knowledge about God. The gospel never changes and is simple, Jesus made that quite clear!

[Freedom]

There are warnings by Jesus not to add to the doctrine that the Father gave. Understand, there is a difference between what the gospel says is required of us and gaining general knowledge about God. The gospel never changes and is simple, Jesus made that quite clear!

Reference please.