Who Were The Jaredites

[helaman38]

1. You clearly have not.

2. I have access  to all of his unpublished works ... do you?

 

 

Um ... if you reasonably think that Ripliancum is Lake Ontario, then you've NOT read my father's works [apparently, even modestly].

 

Your father is responsible for a lot, I'll just leave it like that.

[cursor]

Actually, I can offer more.

[cursor]

sorry ... never mind. =D

Edited August 26, 2013 by cursor

[cursor]

Then he already knows that Sorenson said there is nothing north of the Land Northward, yet on the map he provided us, there is the entire continent north of his model with nothing bordering it or hindering anyone's travel there.

 

John L Sorenson says (via email today): 

 

The Gulf of Mexico/Gulf of Campeche, from the point of view of a person writing in Zarahemla [santa Rosa, Chiapas, Mexico], is the “sea north.” (Compare the “North Sea” near England, which is “north” from London even though it appears to be to the east in terms of the whole island group.) Conversely the portion of the Pacific Ocean to the south of Tehuantepec, Oaxaca and Guerrero is the Nephite “sea south”. The Spaniards referred consistently to the latter portion of the Pacific (off Guatemala) as the “South Sea."

 

[ ] mine

 

What did Mormon think? What was in HIS head? What was HIS geographic frame of reference?

Edited August 26, 2013 by cursor

[Freedom]

Thank you for sharing early a map from Sorenson's new book. I do think the word choice "plausible" Jaredite Lands is a far stretch of the imagination. Joseph said the final Nephite battle was in Palmyra and Omer, a Jaredite walked by there i.e. Palmyra. The Jaredites only inhabited the land north of the Narrow Neck so Palmyra is north of it and Ripliancum Lake Ontario.

 

Besides those poignant points, Sorenson's "plausible" Jaredite Lands map lacks the surrounding FOUR SEAS.

Why are these claims to be so poignant? Are you aware that Joseph considered other locations such as Central America? Are you also aware that he never claimed he was told by an angel or any other form of revelation where the Book of Mormon events took place?

[helaman38]

John L Sorenson says (via email today): 

 

The Gulf of Mexico/Gulf of Campeche, from the point of view of a person writing in Zarahemla [santa Rosa, Chiapas, Mexico], is the “sea north.” (Compare the “North Sea” near England, which is “north” from London even though it appears to be to the east in terms of the whole island group.) Conversely the portion of the Pacific Ocean to the south of Tehuantepec, Oaxaca and Guerrero is the Nephite “sea south”. The Spaniards referred consistently to the latter portion of the Pacific (off Guatemala) as the “South Sea."

 

[ ] mine

 

What did Mormon think? What was in HIS head? What was HIS geographic frame of reference?

 

Here's a problem, Zarahemla is in the Land Southward which land did not have a sea south of it. (well, we don't know what was south period) Modelers who did try to place the Sea South on their maps have put it south of the Land Southward when it was actually south of the Land Northward.

 

Now, to a person writing in Zarahemla, the only body of water north of them would have to be the Sea South of the Land Northward.

 

The Land Northward was only connected to the Land Southward by a tiny neck or passage. It literally was surrounded by FOUR seas and this is why they thought they were on an island.

 

We find that dynamic from eye level, i.e. Mormon's level in one place only and that is in western NY with Lake Ontario on the north, Lake Erie on the west, Lake Tonawanda on the south and Genesee River & Gorge on the east. 

 

Niagara means "neck" btw.

 

 

Why are these claims to be so poignant? Are you aware that Joseph considered other locations such as Central America? Are you also aware that he never claimed he was told by an angel or any other form of revelation where the Book of Mormon events took place?

 

Joseph never identified any other hill as "Cumorah." Joseph did claim he was told by an angel that the name of the hill was Cumorah and Whitmer reported that Moroni identified the land as "Cumorah" also. Early church members, after reading the first official history of the church came away knowing that the hill in Palmyra, NY was the hill where the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed. 

 

Between those first hand accounts and where land prophecies were fulfilled, the only thing confusing the matter (and weaken the faith of believers as President Joseph Fielding Smith warned would happen) are certain academics trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Now that FARMS has been disbanded and defunded, perhaps the area in western NY can be given equal attention with research and finances that the others received - since there is no official church position on the issue, there should be equal or more attention to where the first missionaries were sent - Buffalo, NY - imo.

[ZelphtheGreat]

One more mythical group of people who left absolutely NO record of their civilization that any independent researcher can find.

 

Those with some pathological need to believe think they are this or that people but no credible archaeologist even entertains the fiction.

[Brant Gardner]

One more mythical group of people who left absolutely NO record of their civilization that any independent researcher can find.

 

Those with some pathological need to believe think they are this or that people but no credible archaeologist even entertains the fiction.

 

Welcome to the board, though you might try to learn something before you make suggestions you clearly don't understand. For example, there is ample evidence that there were people of the culture level indicated in Ether who lived in the Gulf Coast region of Mexico during the times when the book of Ether suggests that there were people there. There is currently evidence of warfare, though for a number of years it was less evident. So there is a record of a civilization at the right time and place. Do you know who they were?

 

You might be surprised at the credible archaeologists who believe this. I know of at least 4 Mesoamericanists. Does the fact that I know who they are trump you assertion from assumption? It should.

 

If you really would like to participate, please spend just a little time to become educated before opining.

[Questing Beast]

...

 

 

If Lake Ontario is Ripliancum then the West Sea is Lake Erie and the East Sea is the Genesee River/Gorge.

And the south sea? The Gulf of Mexico isn't remotely in the neighborhood and nothing else offers. The geography between your other three seas lacks many features, including the necessary ruins of cities or anything else, to qualify as a BoM site, based on archaeology or "the map"....

[Questing Beast]

John L Sorenson says (via email today): 

 

The Gulf of Mexico/Gulf of Campeche, from the point of view of a person writing in Zarahemla [santa Rosa, Chiapas, Mexico], is the “sea north.” (Compare the “North Sea” near England, which is “north” from London even though it appears to be to the east in terms of the whole island group.) Conversely the portion of the Pacific Ocean to the south of Tehuantepec, Oaxaca and Guerrero is the Nephite “sea south”. The Spaniards referred consistently to the latter portion of the Pacific (off Guatemala) as the “South Sea."

 

[ ] mine

 

What did Mormon think? What was in HIS head? What was HIS geographic frame of reference?

Then where is the east sea and where is the west sea? The narrow neck has these seas defining it....

[cursor]

Damn .. I swear, I read the package before opening ... and it said "no instructions necessary."

[Gervin]

 

You might be surprised at the credible archaeologists who believe this. I know of at least 4 Mesoamericanists. Does the fact that I know who they are trump you assertion from assumption? It should.

 

 

Being credible, and all, in their belief in [something having to do with] warfare, are they credible enough to have names?

[helaman38]

And the south sea? The Gulf of Mexico isn't remotely in the neighborhood and nothing else offers. The geography between your other three seas lacks many features, including the necessary ruins of cities or anything else, to qualify as a BoM site, based on archaeology or "the map"....

 

It is Lake Tonawanda and yes, there are more ancient fortifications there per square mile as described in the Book of Mormon than anywhere else:

 

More than 1,000 sites in Ontario, Livingston, Genesee and Monroe Counties [Western New York]. Nearly 500 sites chartered in Monroe County alone. In Genesee County are over 100 fortified hilltops and strongholds, and similar number of burial sites, and nearly 50 true mounds. It thus appears that long before the coming of the white man, this region was settled by active and vigorous peoples. Their camps upon the hills, their fortifications in strategic places difficult to assault. There is not an area of like size in the United States east of Ohio and north of the Mason and Dixon Line where evidences of aboriginal occupation are so abundant. (E. G. Squire, Aboriginal Monuments of the state of New-York: comprising the results of original surveys and explorations; with an illustrative appendix, 1849) 

[Questing Beast]

It is Lake Tonawanda and yes, there are more ancient fortifications there per square mile as described in the Book of Mormon than anywhere else:

 

More than 1,000 sites in Ontario, Livingston, Genesee and Monroe Counties [Western New York]. Nearly 500 sites chartered in Monroe County alone. In Genesee County are over 100 fortified hilltops and strongholds, and similar number of burial sites, and nearly 50 true mounds. It thus appears that long before the coming of the white man, this region was settled by active and vigorous peoples. Their camps upon the hills, their fortifications in strategic places difficult to assault. There is not an area of like size in the United States east of Ohio and north of the Mason and Dixon Line where evidences of aboriginal occupation are so abundant. (E. G. Squire, Aboriginal Monuments of the state of New-York: comprising the results of original surveys and explorations; with an illustrative appendix, 1849) 

Forts are not cities with walls.

 

How can this area be mistaken for an "isle of the sea"?

 

And how can "Hagoth" be gone and return and then be gone for good, when all anyone would have to do is walk around the silly lake? Inland lakes do not equate to the oceans required in the textual descriptions. You are twisting to grasp an already accepted theory, and anyone can do that, but the danger is in ignoring the fallacious bits that don't fit....

Edited August 27, 2013 by Questing Beast

[helaman38]

Forts are not cities with walls.

 

How can this area be mistaken for an "isle of the sea"?...

 

Actually they were. Squire in his book drew many maps of said cities that were in fact fortified just as described. Even the ancient city of current day Buffalo was surrounded by a wall when the colonists arrived. Hundreds and thousands of artifacts and weapons were pulled from mounds right in it.

 

From eye level, not map level, you could stand at the Narrow Neck (just north of Buffalo) and see three bodies of water from that vantage point - Sea West (Lake Erie), Sea South (Lake Tonawanda) and Sea North (Lake Ontario). And because BoM lands were only 1.5 days wide everyone knew where the Sea East was (current day "Grand Canyon of the East, the Genesee River/Gorge).

 

Incidentally, the Niagara Falls are the lasting testament of the coming of Jesus as prophesied:

 

 21 Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass, shall be broken up;

 22 Yea, they shall be rent in twain, and shall ever after be found in seams and in cracks, and in broken fragments upon the face of the whole earth, yea, both above the earth and beneath. (Helaman 14)

[Anijen]

It is Lake Tonawanda and yes, there are more ancient fortifications there per square mile as described in the Book of Mormon than anywhere else:

 

More than 1,000 sites in Ontario, Livingston, Genesee and Monroe Counties [Western New York]. Nearly 500 sites chartered in Monroe County alone. In Genesee County are over 100 fortified hilltops and strongholds, and similar number of burial sites, and nearly 50 true mounds. It thus appears that long before the coming of the white man, this region was settled by active and vigorous peoples. Their camps upon the hills, their fortifications in strategic places difficult to assault. There is not an area of like size in the United States east of Ohio and north of the Mason and Dixon Line where evidences of aboriginal occupation are so abundant. (E. G. Squire, Aboriginal Monuments of the state of New-York: comprising the results of original surveys and explorations; with an illustrative appendix, 1849) 

I too have the Smithsonian's work of Squier. The fortifications mentioned are not those mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

Challenge for you;

Name a specific just one of these 1000 sites (it should be easy there are so many) which date back to the Book of Mormon and provide citation for your evidence that supports a fort or stronghold.

 

Hundreds and thousands of artifacts and weapons were pulled from mounds right in it.

 

Where are they? "Hundreds and thousands" I have studied many, many projectile points, I have studied under a great anthropologist who is an expert in pottery, I have been to Niagara, Palmyra, Nauvoo, Cahokia, most the mounds near Columbus Ohio. I have spoken personally and continually email William Iseminger [the nations number one expert on Cahokia], I have held the Bat Creek stone in my hands. I have visited the number one ranked anthropology school in the nation [stony brook University] and toured its collection and read many of its papers. This is my cup of tea and what I study everyday when I have free time away from my other studies.  

 

I am a paid member of the New York State Archaeological Society as well as the Archaeological Society of Ohio (much like being a member of FAIR). I have access to to many papers etc. I have found many papers on camp sites, the rock sources of projectile points,  some that date before the Book of Mormon some during and some that date after, not one supports the Book of Mormon, but interesting enough they counter such arguments that place such a large population of a civilized complex society, or had gigantic warfare as mentioned in the BofM.

 

Incidentally, the Niagara Falls are the lasting testament of the coming of Jesus as prophesied:

 

Just an FYI Niagara Falls was formed from the last ice age, 22,000 years ago.

 

Even the ancient city of current day Buffalo was surrounded by a wall when the colonists arrived. Hundreds and thousands of artifacts and weapons were pulled from mounds right in it.

 

CFR. 

[helaman38]

I too have the Smithsonian's work of Squier...

 

Unfortunately I don't have the time to go the rounds with you and repeat what's already been said over and over again. On the one hand you seem to be a defender of truth but on the other hand you totally ignore where land prophecies were fulfilled and where Joseph said the final Nephite battle was, so it's pointless to have this discussion.

[Anijen]

Unfortunately I don't have the time to go the rounds with you and repeat what's already been said over and over again. On the one hand you seem to be a defender of truth but on the other hand you totally ignore where land prophecies were fulfilled and where Joseph said the final Nephite battle was, so it's pointless to have this discussion.

Ignored? Not really, I just do not place "land prophecies" in the tier that you do. As far as our modern day church leaders I have read their own words for myself and can see where their own opinions had changed over time. 

 

However in the spirit of non contention (and exhaustion) something I am trying to learn from the most errable Dr. Mark Wright I am going to give you an olive branch and quit these threads for a little bit. Adieu my friends.

[Freedom]

Unfortunately I don't have the time to go the rounds with you and repeat what's already been said over and over again. On the one hand you seem to be a defender of truth but on the other hand you totally ignore where land prophecies were fulfilled and where Joseph said the final Nephite battle was, so it's pointless to have this discussion.

Is this the same Joseph who although thought it took place in Peru and later in Central America? Is he the prophet that restored the church that, led by a prophet today, declares that there is no revelation on where the events took place and that Joseph did often express an opinion not based on divine knowledge? Is that the one?

[helaman38]

Is this the same Joseph who although thought it took place in Peru and later in Central America? Is he the prophet that restored the church that, led by a prophet today, declares that there is no revelation on where the events took place and that Joseph did often express an opinion not based on divine knowledge? Is that the one?

 

No, it's the Joseph who rightly brought forth the Book of Mormon and proclaimed it was Moroni who called the hill in Palmyra "Cumorah." It is the same Joseph who dictated the first official history of the church wherein he emphatically AGAIN identified the same hill in Palmyra as "Cumorah" and in fact stated that it was where the final Nephite and Jaredite battles were.

 

It's the same Joseph who fell under the curse of condemnation wherein his mind "became darkened" for not having followed the Book of Mormon and it was under that darkened mind that he contradicted himself and not before. The further upstream you can go, the purer the water is!

[Brant Gardner]

How, exactly, does upper state NY satisfy the requirement of "four seas?" I don't see anywhere other than the entire Western Hemisphere where "four seas" surrounds the required land masses. This is one issue that even Sorensen did not provide an adequate answer for....

Perhaps not, but Clark did and having gone through the evidence I believe his answer is correct. There is no physical north or south sea. They are mentioned only once in a passage that delineates "the whole earth." The conception was that a people would be located in the center, and bounded on all sides by wilderness and sea.

 

The key determination is that in the action of the text no sea north or sea south is ever mentioned. If they were there and part of the physical environment, they should show in the action of the text in the way that the east and west sea do.

[Brant Gardner]

Being credible, and all, in their belief in [something having to do with] warfare, are they credible enough to have names?

Credible enough to have names and to have well-respected publications. There may be more that I don't know. Most simply do very good archaeology and don't talk about their beliefs. So if you are looking for publications concerning the Book of Mormon, that wasn't the question I was answering. There are very competent and well respected Mesoamerican archaeologists who are LDS.

[Gervin]

For example, there is ample evidence that there were people of the culture level indicated in Ether who lived in the Gulf Coast region of Mexico during the times when the book of Ether suggests that there were people there. There is currently evidence of warfare, though for a number of years it was less evident. So there is a record of a civilization at the right time and place. Do you know who they were?

 

You might be surprised at the credible archaeologists who believe this. I know of at least 4 Mesoamericanists.

 

You said 

 

a) there is ample evidence that there were people of the culture level indicated in Ether who lived in the Gulf Coast region of Mexico,

b) there is evidence of warfare, though for a number of years it was less evident, and

c) there are (at least 4) credible archaeologists who believe this

 

I'd like to try and find their publications and read what they have to say.  What are their names?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Unfortunately I don't have the time to go the rounds with you and repeat what's already been said over and over again. On the one hand you seem to be a defender of truth but on the other hand you totally ignore where land prophecies were fulfilled and where Joseph said the final Nephite battle was, so it's pointless to have this discussion.

Translation: I cannont really provider the refrences so I wll just ignore you and claim victory. I would like a CFR and under board guide lines you are required to provider that refrence. And the CFR is to this point.

 

 

"Even the ancient city of current day Buffalo was surrounded by a wall when the colonists arrived. Hundreds and thousands of artifacts and weapons were pulled from mounds right in it."

[Questing Beast]

Actually they were. Squire in his book drew many maps of said cities that were in fact fortified just as described. Even the ancient city of current day Buffalo was surrounded by a wall when the colonists arrived. Hundreds and thousands of artifacts and weapons were pulled from mounds right in it.

 

From eye level, not map level, you could stand at the Narrow Neck (just north of Buffalo) and see three bodies of water from that vantage point - Sea West (Lake Erie), Sea South (Lake Tonawanda) and Sea North (Lake Ontario). And because BoM lands were only 1.5 days wide everyone knew where the Sea East was (current day "Grand Canyon of the East, the Genesee River/Gorge).

 

Incidentally, the Niagara Falls are the lasting testament of the coming of Jesus as prophesied:

 

 21 Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass, shall be broken up;

 22 Yea, they shall be rent in twain, and shall ever after be found in seams and in cracks, and in broken fragments upon the face of the whole earth, yea, both above the earth and beneath. (Helaman 14)

Your "narrow neck" is the land that adheres to Niagara falls?? The first Nephites lived on an "isle of the sea", bounded by those lakes??? None of the subsequent textual use of "narrow neck" or "passage" that is bounded by east and west seas fits that spot. And you ignored Hagoth who had to build a very large ship and cram it with men and their families and sail off into the north and the unknown. The necessity of building ships in order to migrate is utterly non existent vis-a-vis the great lakes. Just take your packs and pack animals and start walking along the lake edge. Eventually you'll find a spot and spread out. Ship building is an arduous and enormous expense, necessary for ocean-going pilgrims, but not for land lubber Lehites. The text clearly signifies vast distances and months/years of travel time. Anyone can skitter across one of the great lakes in a matter of a few days and back again....