Predestination. You Asked For It Here It Is.

[Vance]

We need God to draw us to Himself as in and of ourselves we would never choose God (Romans 3:10-12) so without this "irresistible grace" all people would be lost.

So therefore no one comes to Christ unless the Father draws Him (John 6:44) . . . .

How do you square that with this?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

[Vance]

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Yes, Sin is a transgression of the law. So, sin is a transgression, but NOWHERE does it say that all transgressions are sins. So, as I said, the word "sin" is not associated with Eve (in the KJV).

[MrG]

Yes, Sin is a transgression of the law. So, sin is a transgression, but NOWHERE does it say that all transgressions are sins. So, as I said, the word "sin" is not associated with Eve (in the KJV).

1 John 3:4........sin is the transgression of the law.

Huh?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

1 John 3:4........sin is the transgression of the law.

Huh?

Sin is the trangression of the law. Is that the same as saying trangression of the law is Sin? In other words, all sins are trangressions. Are all trangression sins?

[MrG]

Sin is the trangression of the law. Is that the same as saying trangression of the law is Sin? In other words, all sins are trangressions. Are all trangression sins?

Yes because Sin is the transgression of the law, so to transgress is to sin, because sin is transgression.

[Vance]

But we LDS have used the word "salvation" ambiguously forever- for us it can mean anything from what we call "immortality"- a free gift to all- or "eternal life" which means, for us, exaltation.

Not making excuses, but the usage in the Bible is also ambiguous. Just saying.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

How do you square that with this?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

This is very valid when discussion the 5 points.

We have a verse of scripture that is telling us that Christ will be lifted up to draw all men (not just the elect) unto him. If I understand my Calvinism, only the elect that are predestined will draw unto Christ. Christ appears to be contradicting this. Why would Christ say this if he knew only those that were predestined and acted on the call would draw unto him to be saved, when he is clearly talking to all people everywere.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[MrG]

How do you square that with this?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

I guess this is where context comes in.

John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I would take the verse you quoted to mean all kinds of people, people from every tribe and tongue etc.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.

There is too much other teaching about the divide between being Christs people or not to take this verse in any kind of universalistic sense.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yes because Sin is the transgression of the law, so to transgress is to sin, because sin is transgression.

But that is not what the scriptures say. They say that to sin is to trangress the law, specifically the law is trangressed. It does not say that a sin is a trangression only that it is a transgression of the law. Do you see this distinction? This is some what similar to the scripture that says a Bishop is an Elder. Some people think that because it says this that if you are an elder that is the same as a bishop.

[MrG]

But that is not what the scriptures say. They say that to sin is to trangress the law, specifically the law is trangressed. It does not say that a sin is a trangression only that it is a transgression of the law. Do you see this distinction? This is some what similar to the scripture that says a Bishop is an Elder. Some people think that because it says this that if you are an elder that is the same as a bishop.

Im afraid I dont, I am simply just reading this for what it says.

[Vance]

Does this indicate he's a changing God?

With respect to his relationships, yes. With respect to his nature, no.

So, God was/is always lonely?

For God it indicates a desire to share based on the foreknowledge of joy he will get and give.

Why did He wait forever before He started the creation? What changed Him?

So it doesn't indicate loneliness but rather like someone who is an extravert who gains satisfaction from sharing his love and life.

If He was always an "extravert", why did He wait forever before He created us?

Why the need to share? I wouldn't call it a "need" so much as a desire or his pleasure.

Did he always have this "pleasure"? If so, why did he wait forever before he did the creation thing?

There is only one way to create a perfect love based on free will. That is to allow those created to actually choose the love offered. The net result is that some will reject that love, and that is their choice, and it is the cost of getting the end results of a love relationship based on free will.

Why not just put that in their will to start with? Can't he make a free willed person that will choose him 100% of the time? Is his power limited to creating free willed people that ALWAYS fail him in some way?

IF NO ONE can please God, it seems OBVIOUS that the reason is God doesn't have the power to create a free willed individual that will choose him 100% of the time. So, God, apparently, IS limited to what he can do.

[Vance]

Yes because Sin is the transgression of the law, so to transgress is to sin, because sin is transgression.

Your logic is flawed. Sin, based upon the scriptural definition, is a transgression of the law. Therefore Sin is a subset of transgression of the law. But that leaves open the possibility that there are some transgressions of the law that are not sins. All sin is transgression, but that doesn't require that all transgressions are sins.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Im afraid I dont, I am simply just reading this for what it says.

Translation: you are just reading it how you interpret it how it fits in with your theology. That is fine. We will just have to agree to disagree on this point. Not that I think this side topic really matters that much. IE sin= trangression. Edited August 12, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Vance]

I guess this is where context comes in.

John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I would take the verse you quoted to mean all kinds of people, people from every tribe and tongue etc.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.

There is too much other teaching about the divide between being Christs people or not to take this verse in any kind of universalistic sense.

So, that verse doesn't mean what is says??????? If some verses don't mean what they say, because they conflict with your theology, then any scriptural discussion is useless. Just saying.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Then, according to Calvinism, why doesn't God elect to save everyone?

As it has been explained to me...God needs people to punish so the saved will give him praise.

[Vance]

Im afraid I dont, I am simply just reading this for what it says.

??????????????????????Twice here this afternoon you have basically claimed that the verses don't mean what they say.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I guess this is where context comes in.

John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I would take the verse you quoted to mean all kinds of people, people from every tribe and tongue etc.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.

There is too much other teaching about the divide between being Christs people or not to take this verse in any kind of universalistic sense.

You are suggesting "all" means all types instead of "all people", how convenient.

[Vance]

Your logic is flawed. Sin, based upon the scriptural definition, is a transgression of the law. Therefore Sin is a subset of transgression of the law. But that leaves open the possibility that there are some transgressions of the law that are not sins. All sin is transgression, but that doesn't require that all transgressions are sins.

Pink is a color, . . . . . Therefore all colors are pink. Just using your logic.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I guess this is where context comes in.

John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I would take the verse you quoted to mean all kinds of people, people from every tribe and tongue etc.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.

There is too much other teaching about the divide between being Christs people or not to take this verse in any kind of universalistic sense.

Context? From a totally diffent part of the bible. I think this is called cherry picking. I do appreciate your view of what you think the bible says with regards to what Vance brought up. I just disagree with it. Mainly because it says that " he would draw all men" Not "all type of men" as you seem to be insinuating.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So my question comes from the earlier refrenced 5 points. If man can do nothing of him self, in otherwords it seems that he cannot even have faith God has to give it to him, then would not God be the ultimate deciding factor in who is saved or not? I know this has been asked. But how does God decide who is saved and who isn't? And what is the purpose of salvation?

So I didn't see any responces to my questions. I was only bringing these back up because I know this is a busy thread.

[MrG]

Pink is a color, . . . . . Therefore all colors are pink. Just using your logic.

If it said sin is A transgression you would have a point.

[bluebell]

So I didn't see any responces to my questions. I was only bringing these back up because I know this is a busy thread.

As far as I understand it, God doesn't save everyone because He has to show justice (by damning a WHOLE bunch of people) so that the few who get saved recognize how merciful He is being to them.

It also appears, from what's been explained to me, that who get's saved/doesn't get saved is random-the saved people don't deserve it anymore than the unsaved ones, they just got lucky.

And according to Calvinism (if I'm understanding it correctly), the purpose of salvation is to bring more glory to God. Everything is all about Him.

What I still don't understand is why a God of love is o.k. sending billions of people to suffer beyond our imaginations for all of eternity--especially since He could have saved each one of them since it's ultimately His decision--just to make Himself more glorious.

[Vance]

If it said sin is A transgression you would have a point.

Ok, Running a stop sign is transgression of the law, therefore all transgression of the law is running a stop sin. Got it. Edited August 12, 2013 by Vance

[mfbukowski]

Not making excuses, but the usage in the Bible is also ambiguous. Just saying.

Yup.

[mfbukowski]

Im afraid I dont, I am simply just reading this for what it says.

To you.