Predestination. You Asked For It Here It Is.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So why this mortality? Why not create us as heavenly creatures to immediately share existence with him? Why did he create us in such a way that would condemn a vast majority of his creation to the burning pits of hell. Because let's be honest here most of the people that will/have ever lived on this planet will never hear of the Christian god, so explain how this merciful god would create a species of life to share his existence with but will do so in a way that an overall majority of them will be damned before they're even born for want of even knowing this god exists. And this god is a loving god you say?

I feel like I am on a merry go round.

[danielwoods]

So why this mortality? Why not create us as heavenly creatures to immediately share existence with him? Why did he create us in such a way that would condemn a vast majority of his creation to the burning pits of hell. Because let's be honest here most of the people that will/have ever lived on this planet will never hear of the Christian god, so explain how this merciful god would create a species of life to share his existence with but will do so in a way that an overall majority of them will be damned before they're even born for want of even knowing this god exists. And this god is a loving god you say?

Why not create us as Heavenly creatures?

Some he did. For us he didn't. Why? I can only speculate that his plan for us was slightly different. We are fellow worshipers of God, yet we are slightly different as well.

God is just and doesn't condemn people based on what they don't know. Rather, he only judges us based on what we do know. As it says in, Romans 1:^{20 "}For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

We are all without excuse.

As for the idea that the vast majority of his creation will be burning in the pits of Hell. I'm not convinced that is the case. We shall see though. I suspect it will be similar to the 1/3 to 2/3 ratio though (1/3 fallen).

[bluebell]

Oh yeah. So then we really don't have a will of our own only that which God created. So why did God not create us so that all of us would return to Him?

Another note it seems you are saying that if you are one of the damned you wont even have the ability to ask for salvation.

According to the Total Depravity doctrine of Calvinism, there is no such thing as free will. Danielwoods is an Arminian I believe, so he believes in free will.

It's one of the points of contention between the two schools of thought (if I'm understanding this right).

[LordUther]

Why not create us as Heavenly creatures?

Some he did. For us he didn't. Why? I can only speculate that his plan for us was slightly different. We are fellow worshipers of God, yet we are slightly different as well.

God is just and doesn't condemn people based on what they don't know. Rather, he only judges us based on what we do know. As it says in, Romans 1:^{20 "}For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

We are all without excuse.

As for the idea that the vast majority of his creation will be burning in the pits of Hell. I'm not convinced that is the case. We shall see though. I suspect it will be similar to the 1/3 to 2/3 ratio though (1/3 fallen).

But all must turn to Christ to be saved, how can they do this if they've never even heard of him?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

According to the Total Depravity doctrine of Calvinism, there is no such thing as free will. Danielwoods is an Arminian I believe, so he believes in free will.

It's one of the points of contention between the two schools of thought (if I'm understanding this right).

That was what I thought, on both points. You don't have free will. Which I think is demonstrably false. I think it could be easy to prove you have a will to do things on your own. Which this is one of the biggest points I disgaree with on the 5 points. Further more if one does not have a free will they cannot be held responsible for what they do and if they were created "bad" then it is the creators fault when that thing does something bad. I mean you can't have your cake and eat on the idea that God is not resposible for creating evil. Edited August 13, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Why not create us as Heavenly creatures?

Some he did. For us he didn't. Why? I can only speculate that his plan for us was slightly different. We are fellow worshipers of God, yet we are slightly different as well.

Don't you think it would be imortant to know this? It sounds like he was capable of doing so according to your theology but chose not to give slavtion for all for some reason. Edited August 13, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[bluebell]

That was what I thought, on both points. You don't have free will. Which I think is demonstrably false. I think it could be easy to prove you have a will to do things on your own. Which this is one of the biggest points I disgaree with on the 5 points. Further more if one does not have a free will they cannot be held responsible for what they do and if they were created "bad" then it is the creators fault that thing does something bad. I mean you can't have your cake and eat on the idea that God is not resposible for creating evil.

I agree that it doesn't seem like a person can be held responsible for things that they do (sins) if they have no free will.

And if it's someone else's fault that you have sinned, then how is it just to condemn you?

And if it's not just to condemn someone for something they could not help, then how can God be just?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Love/Life/existence in relationship with him.

To what point? I don't understand the point. Why? I mean it sounds like God was missing something. I know you are going to say he wasn't but that would be the motivating factor that would cause some one or something to act in that way. He was lonely so he created us.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I agree that it doesn't seem like a person can be held responsible for things that they do (sins) if they have no free will.

And if it's someone else's fault that you have sinned, then how is it just to condemn you?

And if it's not just to condemn someone for something they could not help, then how can God be just?

Well hopefully we can get off the merry go round and get some answers that work. I just have not seen them and I have never in all my debates with Calvinist have ever recieved answers to this. I mean they have answers but to me they are very circular.

[Calm]

While I understand that what you've written above, Bluebell, is a sincere and ''good faith'' effort to understand what you've heard from Calvinist posters here, I see it as quite a reductionist summary.

Of course, I'll leave it to the actual Calvinists to comment on whether your summary accurately reflects their beliefs.

And I think that what appears to me to be an over-emphasis on God's sovereignty and under-emphasis on His selfless, sacrificial love as well as His choosing to limit Himself to allow genuine and effective free will on the part of the people He's created, leads to much more of a deterministic and apparently cruel view of God than is the reality.

I do believe that the Calvinist Christians who are responding in this thread, believe God to be not only sovereign and just but also tender-hearted, loving, gracious and merciful. And that's where I see some disconnect between what they've expressed that leads to your summary, and the harsh implications of how you've interpreted their explanations. I don't see any fault on your part here, Bluebell, and I understand and appreciate your attempt to understand and to repeat what you've heard.

I grew up learning the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Shorter Catechism of which reads: "Q. What is the chief end of man? A. Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.".

And so I identify a lot with the expressed emphasis on our "glorifying God". As with the concept of God's "sovereignty", I find these ideas very honouring to God and personally comforting. If either of these ideas were to be divorced from God's tenderness and sacrificial love, I can see how they would be very harsh and off-putting.

Actually, I've just pulled the Primary Catechism off my bookshelf (which is what very young children learned in Reformed [i.e. Calvinist] church congregations when I was a child) and the first 3 questions there are: "Q. Who made you? A. God made me.; Q. Who is God? A. God is my heavenly Father.; Q. What kind of a Father is God? A. God is a good and loving Father."

I mention this because I think it's important to put a faith system that we're trying to understand into the context of those living it. I think that's what you ARE attempting to do here, but I'm trying to enlarge that context beyond some of the very specific questions and responses that are being exchanged here.

Some well-known Reformed Christian authors and speakers such as Ravi Zacharias, J. I. Packer, Francis Schaeffer, and R.C. Sproule as well as many others have embodied and illustrated the Reformed mindset. If you ever have a chance to read some of their very thoughtful writings it would give further insight into Reformed theology.

Well 'argued', imo.

[stemelbow]

This is only true if conceiving of something actually makes it happen.

Are you saying something could happen that God did not first conceive of? I don't think you could say that, but well see, I guess.

[danielwoods]

But all must turn to Christ to be saved, how can they do this if they've never even heard of him?

For those who have never heard about the name or person of Christ, they aren't judged based on what they don't know, rather what they do know, and what they do with that limited knowledge.

[danielwoods]

Don't you think it would be imortant to know this? It sounds like he was capable of doing so according to your theology but chose not to give slavtion for all for some reason.

Not sure how the two are connected. In one case God chose some to be created in Heaven (the details of which aren't known), and some to be created on Earth. Those in Heaven who fell, aren't able to be saved, those on Earth are.

[Paloma]

Oh yeah. So then we really don't have a will of our own only that which God created. So why did God not create us so that all of us would return to Him?

Another note it seems you are saying that if you are one of the damned you wont even have the ability to ask for salvation.

I should have put a smiley on my last post, to show that I was writing from a Calvinist point of view that I don't fully embrace!

Personally, I don't see God 'damning' anyone, only people choosing to reject God.

[danielwoods]

To what point? I don't understand the point. Why? I mean it sounds like God was missing something. I know you are going to say he wasn't but that would be the motivating factor that would cause some one or something to act in that way. He was lonely so he created us.

I agree it "sounds like" God was missing something. In our existence, we have bouts of loneliness and other things that affect us that don't affect an infinite being. So from our perspective, it "sounds like" he did it out of loneliness but I don't think that could be supported using scripture.

[danielwoods]

Are you saying something could happen that God did not first conceive of? I don't think you could say that, but well see, I guess.

Nope. Only saying that thinking/conceiving of something doesn't equal doing or making that thing. Even in the Creation event, God is recorded as speaking, "Let there be light..." for example. It doesn't say, He thought it, and it was so.

It's my opinion, that the moment that God thought about creating us, he knew all, down to every tiny detail. He knew everything that would happen. However, just because he knows what will happen, doesn't indicate that he controlled those who were given the freedom to make their own choice.

[Paloma]

Well 'argued', imo.

Thanks, Calmoriah!

[LordUther]

For those who have never heard about the name or person of Christ, they aren't judged based on what they don't know, rather what they do know, and what they do with that limited knowledge.

So Christ didn't mean it when he said "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."?

[stemelbow]

Nope. Only saying that thinking/conceiving of something doesn't equal doing or making that thing.

The point is, though, nothing could possible happen unless God conceives of that thing happening. Thus, anything that does happen only happens because God conceives of it. Indeed, if God conceived of Cain to not kill his brother, then he wouldn't have killed his brother. But, as troubling as it is, assuming the traditional Christian position, Cain killed only because God conceived of the kill before Cain was ever around to make that decision. You say that was Cain's decision, but sadly that decision was already made before Cain existed.

Even in the Creation event, God is recorded as speaking, "Let there be light..." for example. It doesn't say, He thought it, and it was so

But even in this He had to conceive of teh concept of creation before creating. He also had to conceive of your choices in order for your actions to have been taken, throughout your life.

It's my opinion, that the moment that God thought about creating us, he knew all, down to every tiny detail. He knew everything that would happen. However, just because he knows what will happen, doesn't indicate that he controlled those who were given the freedom to make their own choice.

But freedom is superfluous. You simply can't make a choice. Each thoht you have, each action you perform is only performed because God conceived of them before you were created.

[Vance]

Nope. Only saying that thinking/conceiving of something doesn't equal doing or making that thing.

It happened because He didn't do anything to prevent it. So, if you knew that some terrorists were going to blow up a school in your city of residence, and if you knew how to prevent it, and if you didn't do anything to prevent it, then wouldn't you be responsible for it occurring?

It's my opinion, that the moment that God thought about creating us, he knew all, down to every tiny detail. He knew everything that would happen. However, just because he knows what will happen, doesn't indicate that he controlled those who were given the freedom to make their own choice.

If he knew how to prevent it and he let it happen anyway, then he is responsible.

[danielwoods]

So Christ didn't mean it when he said "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."?

Nope. Not what I am saying.

Let's say for example, if you didn't know the name of the "Check out lady" at the store, yet it was the rule that she was the only one you could use to exit the store. You of course didn't know this rule, or her name. But, you could tell from the lay out of the store, that all roads to the exit, went through her. So, you went to her to check out. Even though you didn't know her name or really the rules that you had to go through her.

I see a similar scenario with people who haven't heard the gospel preached in their language or even explained properly to them. God judges based on what they know, and as evidenced by Romans 1, there is enough evidence in Creation alone to understand that there is a God who loves us.

So, in essence, all go through Christ (to get to heaven), but not everyone understands that's what they are doing.

[danielwoods]

The point is, though, nothing could possible happen unless God conceives of that thing happening. Thus, anything that does happen only happens because God conceives of it. Indeed, if God conceived of Cain to not kill his brother, then he wouldn't have killed his brother. But, as troubling as it is, assuming the traditional Christian position, Cain killed only because God conceived of the kill before Cain was ever around to make that decision. You say that was Cain's decision, but sadly that decision was already made before Cain existed.

But even in this He had to conceive of teh concept of creation before creating. He also had to conceive of your choices in order for your actions to have been taken, throughout your life.

But freedom is superfluous. You simply can't make a choice. Each thoht you have, each action you perform is only performed because God conceived of them before you were created.

Unfortunately I've never heard of this particular "traditional Christian position" maybe you can tell me where it comes from?

Under this idea (that God's thoughts control our life) means that Jesus was responsible for Judas' betrayal, since he knew before hand that it was going to happen.

Of course this isn't what I believe, nor do I think that our freedom is superfluous.

[Calm]

Nope. Not what I am saying.

Let's say for example, if you didn't know the name of the "Check out lady" at the store, yet it was the rule that she was the only one you could use to exit the store. You of course didn't know this rule, or her name. But, you could tell from the lay out of the store, that all roads to the exit, went through her. So, you went to her to check out. Even though you didn't know her name or really the rules that you had to go through her.

I see a similar scenario with people who haven't heard the gospel preached in their language or even explained properly to them. God judges based on what they know, and as evidenced by Romans 1, there is enough evidence in Creation alone to understand that there is a God who loves us.

So, in essence, all go through Christ (to get to heaven), but not everyone understands that's what they are doing.

The scriptures teach that the creation itself (nature) testifies of God.

I see I am saying exactly what you are, this is what I get for replying when I am too tired to read to the end of the post, lol.

Edited August 14, 2013 by calmoriah

[danielwoods]

It happened because He didn't do anything to prevent it. So, if you knew that some terrorists were going to blow up a school in your city of residence, and if you knew how to prevent it, and if you didn't do anything to prevent it, then wouldn't you be responsible for it occurring?If he knew how to prevent it and he let it happen anyway, then he is responsible.

Prevent what? Prevent people from rejecting God's love?

If the purpose is to gather those who are willing to follow/love him based on the situation we are in (on earth) then God is doing exactly what he wanted, and gathering exactly those who want him, which appears to be his goal.

Preventing people from rejecting God's love, would lead to gathering people who aren't really interested, but have selfish reasons for loving God (which is't really love), which would be counter productive to God's plan.

[Calm]

Unfortunately I've never heard of this particular "traditional Christian position" maybe you can tell me where it comes from?

Under this idea (that God's thoughts control our life) means that Jesus was responsible for Judas' betrayal, since he knew before hand that it was going to happen.

Of course this isn't what I believe, nor do I think that our freedom is superfluous.

He is talking about the logical implication of the traditional view that God has perfect foreknowledge before creation occurs.

By creating mankind as he conceived him, it is not God's thought that controls men, but the nature he conceived for them...much like a programmer conceives a program, then writes it up and runs it.

It all goes back to the two assumptions: 1) knowing the future means it is determined and cannot be changed and thus there is no free will and 2) God cannot create a free will individual out of nothing, iow if he is the only source, he is fully responsible.

Edited August 14, 2013 by calmoriah