Vance Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 So wouldn't creating a free willed person that will not choose him 100% of the time be the same thing? Good point. He created the devil. Can we assume that the devil obeys Him 0% of the time? So, does He create some to obey 5%, 10%, 30%, 50%, 80%, 95%, 99%???? But He can NOT create one that will obey 100%. It is just something He doesn't have the power to do.
Vance Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) Creating a free willed person that *will* not choose or *will* choose something, is antithetical to actually creating a *free* willed person.NOW WAIT JUST A MINUTE!!!!Are you saying it is impossible for God to create a free willed person that *will* not choose or *will* choose something???? I thought God could do ANYTHING. And now you are saying He can't. What gives? If God's goal was to share his love (that he already had among the trinity), then if it was not based on freedom it wouldn't be what he wanted, or satisfactory. Essentially creating a robot to love you doesn't really satisfy the desire or goal he was seeking. Right, but when you create ex nihilo, a robot is what you get. Edited August 13, 2013 by Vance
Stone holm Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 More of the simple logic stuff. If God has existed forever/eternity/infinite time, and if we have not, then God waited forever before He created us. He certainly did not create us near the beginning of "infinite" because there is no beginning of infinite.So God is incapable of creating a "free willed person" who will obey Him 100%. It looks like we have found another thing impossible for God to do.On this we can agree. And when you start with nothing, a robot is what you end up with. Creatio ex nihilo is a false doctrine.When taking a Mormon view, it is important to be very clear about what you are talking about as to "existence". If you are referring to "intelligences", then yes it is reasonable to talk about existence have been eternal -- as we have no doctrine as to how intelligences came into being. If you are talking about beings existing as either spirits or gods, then it is not reasonable to talk having existed forever since according to the Snow Couplet even Heavenly Father at one time existed as something other than a god, and our spirit bodies did not exist. Before somebody starts throwing all the loose Scriptural verbiage about spirits being eternal etc. just remember that the term "spirits" has many meanings and here I am specifically referring to a spirit with a spirit body, not an intelligence which is sometimes referred to as a spirit. 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 13, 2013 Author Posted August 13, 2013 Good point. He created the devil. Can we assume that the devil obeys Him 0% of the time? So, does He create some to obey 5%, 10%, 30%, 50%, 80%, 95%, 99%???? But He can NOT create one that will obey 100%. It is just something He doesn't have the power to do.Can God create a person that will obey him 100% of the time?
danielwoods Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 "How did evil exist if all of Creation was sustained by the mind of God?" Rachael Slick, a Christian turned atheist.This is why I think that a created being by ex nihlo precludes free will. Free agency assumes the existence of a choice -- evil vs good. Her question is that if everything was created by God, where did it that choice for evil come into existence. Anger, hatred,lust, greed would also be part of the creation process ex nihlo.Bottom line -- the concept of creation ex nihlo requires that God would be the creator of evil.False. You are defining Ex nihlo creation as meaning, God must have created this because he can't have created freedom. If God was able to create a being that had the potential for evil, he's not creating evil.
danielwoods Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 NOW WAIT JUST A MINUTE!!!!Are you saying it is impossible for God to create a free willed person that *will* not choose or *will* choose something???? I thought God could do ANYTHING. And now you are saying He can't. What gives?Right, but when you create ex nihilo, a robot is what you get.I've never said that God can do anything. By your definition, when you create ex nihilo, then a robot is what you get.
stemelbow Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 NOW WAIT JUST A MINUTE!!!!Are you saying it is impossible for God to create a free willed person that *will* not choose or *will* choose something???? I thought God could do ANYTHING. And now you are saying He can't. What gives?Right, but when you create ex nihilo, a robot is what you get.I think daniel is approaching this in reverse. He accepts the assumptions of the traditional Christian position. Those being creation ex nihilo, God is Omniscent. With that said, he also accepts free will for God's creations. Which in the end is just a contradiction. So he has to work backwards. Yes God created ex nihilo. Yes God is omniscient, but it is also true that we choose for ourselves even if God conceived of our choices before we existed. Therefore even though He conceived of our choices before we existed those choices atually originate with the individual creature and not in God's conception. Its a contradiction he must ignore, it seems. No point in arguing it further now though. he won't listen beyond his own construct, I've learned.
stemelbow Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 False. You are defining Ex nihlo creation as meaning, God must have created this because he can't have created freedom.If God was able to create a being that had the potential for evil, he's not creating evil.Evil is an interesting thing in lighof the traditional assumptions of creation ex nihilo and omniscience. Take any evil act. It was conceived of by God before anything was created. Thus evil originates, given the traditional assumptions of ex nihiilo and omniscience, within God. Satan is evil because God conceived of him to be evil. Cain murdered his brother because before either was created God conceived of the notion and created knowing murder would be the outcome. Sadly the logical conclusion in this regard is very troublesome. Given the assumptions of the traditional position to say evil did not originate with God would be a contradiction.
cdowis Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) False. You are defining Ex nihlo creation as meaning, God must have created this because he can't have created freedom.If God was able to create a being that had the potential for evil, he's not creating evil.You are missing my point.Where did evil come from -- anger, hatred, lust, selfishness, pride etc. Did these attributes exist before God created the universe ex nihlo? Clearly not because nothing existed except God, so hatred, lust, selfishness, etc came into existence after the creation.Bottom line -- they did not exist before the creation of all things, so they existed immediately after the creation. These are all the attributes of Satan when he was created ex nihlo, and there is only one Creator.The logic is inescapable, if you accept ex nihlo. Edited August 13, 2013 by cdowis
Vance Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 Can God create a person that will obey him 100% of the time?Apparently it is beyond His power to do so.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 13, 2013 Author Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) False. You are defining Ex nihlo creation as meaning, God must have created this because he can't have created freedom.If God was able to create a being that had the potential for evil, he's not creating evil.Can he create a being that doesn't have the potential for evil? Edited August 13, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
Paloma Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) As far as I understand it, God doesn't save everyone because He has to show justice (by damning a WHOLE bunch of people) so that the few who get saved recognize how merciful He is being to them.It also appears, from what's been explained to me, that who get's saved/doesn't get saved is random-the saved people don't deserve it anymore than the unsaved ones, they just got lucky.And according to Calvinism (if I'm understanding it correctly), the purpose of salvation is to bring more glory to God. Everything is all about Him.What I still don't understand is why a God of love is o.k. sending billions of people to suffer beyond our imaginations for all of eternity--especially since He could have saved each one of them since it's ultimately His decision--just to make Himself more glorious.While I understand that what you've written above, Bluebell, is a sincere and ''good faith'' effort to understand what you've heard from Calvinist posters here, I see it as quite a reductionist summary. Of course, I'll leave it to the actual Calvinists to comment on whether your summary accurately reflects their beliefs.And I think that what appears to me to be an over-emphasis on God's sovereignty and under-emphasis on His selfless, sacrificial love as well as His choosing to limit Himself to allow genuine and effective free will on the part of the people He's created, leads to much more of a deterministic and apparently cruel view of God than is the reality.I do believe that the Calvinist Christians who are responding in this thread, believe God to be not only sovereign and just but also tender-hearted, loving, gracious and merciful. And that's where I see some disconnect between what they've expressed that leads to your summary, and the harsh implications of how you've interpreted their explanations. I don't see any fault on your part here, Bluebell, and I understand and appreciate your attempt to understand and to repeat what you've heard.I grew up learning the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Shorter Catechism of which reads: "Q. What is the chief end of man? A. Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.".And so I identify a lot with the expressed emphasis on our "glorifying God". As with the concept of God's "sovereignty", I find these ideas very honouring to God and personally comforting. If either of these ideas were to be divorced from God's tenderness and sacrificial love, I can see how they would be very harsh and off-putting.Actually, I've just pulled the Primary Catechism off my bookshelf (which is what very young children learned in Reformed [i.e. Calvinist] church congregations when I was a child) and the first 3 questions there are: "Q. Who made you? A. God made me.; Q. Who is God? A. God is my heavenly Father.; Q. What kind of a Father is God? A. God is a good and loving Father." I mention this because I think it's important to put a faith system that we're trying to understand into the context of those living it. I think that's what you ARE attempting to do here, but I'm trying to enlarge that context beyond some of the very specific questions and responses that are being exchanged here.Some well-known Reformed Christian authors and speakers such as Ravi Zacharias, J. I. Packer, Francis Schaeffer, and R.C. Sproule as well as many others have embodied and illustrated the Reformed mindset. If you ever have a chance to read some of their very thoughtful writings it would give further insight into Reformed theology. Edited August 13, 2013 by Paloma
Vance Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 I agree, that the programing will dictate and will reflect what the designer intended (Which is why I believe in Intelligent Design). And if the designer intended for the program to have moral agency (at say age 12), then why is it impossible for him to have designed it that way? What is the limitation here for God the ultimate programer? What is limiting him? What exactly is stopping him from programing his creations in this way?To me, this indicates that you believe God can do anything he wants. Am I wrong?
Vance Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 Instead of reposting the same ideas. Let's separate them.1) Can God create a free-will being?2) Does the process by which God created, limit what he creates? Or does it effect it at all?My answers are Yes and no.God isn't limited by the process at all. If he chose to create out of nothing, that's his prerogative. If he created out of something, that's his prerogative as well.To me this indicates that you believe God can do anything. Am I wrong?
danielwoods Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 You are missing my point.Where did evil come from -- anger, hatred, lust, selfishness, pride etc. Did these attributes exist before God created the universe ex nihlo? Clearly not because nothing existed except God, so hatred, lust, selfishness, etc came into existence after the creation.Bottom line -- they did not exist before the creation of all things, so they existed immediately after the creation. These are all the attributes of Satan when he was created ex nihlo, and there is only one Creator.The logic is inescapable, if you accept ex nihlo.False. Only if you accept your definition for God and what it means to create out of nothing. In my view God has the ability to create a truly free moral agent. Satan and his followers were the first to fall (create evil).
danielwoods Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 Can he create a being that doesn't have the potential for evil?Yes. It's called a robot. Or Animal that only operates based on it's instincts.
danielwoods Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 To me, this indicates that you believe God can do anything he wants. Am I wrong?Can God do anything he wants? Yes. Can he violate his nature, as in not exist? Not be God? NO.
danielwoods Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 To me this indicates that you believe God can do anything. Am I wrong?"anything" in what context? God can create anything he wishes or desires. You seem to want to make a point that God is limited in some way, because in order to create a free will based loving relationship he has to create a free will being first? I don't understand why that's so surprising or difficult to understand. Any creator would have to go through the same process to achieve the same results.
danielwoods Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 Evil is an interesting thing in lighof the traditional assumptions of creation ex nihilo and omniscience. Take any evil act. It was conceived of by God before anything was created. Thus evil originates, given the traditional assumptions of ex nihiilo and omniscience, within God. Satan is evil because God conceived of him to be evil. Cain murdered his brother because before either was created God conceived of the notion and created knowing murder would be the outcome. Sadly the logical conclusion in this regard is very troublesome. Given the assumptions of the traditional position to say evil did not originate with God would be a contradiction.This is only true if conceiving of something actually makes it happen.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 13, 2013 Author Posted August 13, 2013 Yes. It's called a robot. Or Animal that only operates based on it's instincts.So this begs the question. What is the point of creating a being that can do evil?
danielwoods Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 I think daniel is approaching this in reverse. He accepts the assumptions of the traditional Christian position. Those being creation ex nihilo, God is Omniscent. With that said, he also accepts free will for God's creations. Which in the end is just a contradiction. So he has to work backwards. Yes God created ex nihilo. Yes God is omniscient, but it is also true that we choose for ourselves even if God conceived of our choices before we existed. Therefore even though He conceived of our choices before we existed those choices atually originate with the individual creature and not in God's conception. Its a contradiction he must ignore, it seems. No point in arguing it further now though. he won't listen beyond his own construct, I've learned.It's only a contradiction if foreknowledge equals control. In the end, we have a mystery either way. LDS: Origin of the design of intelligences (why are they the way they are?) MysteryOrthodoxy: Origin of Free Will and Evil, in light of Ex Nihilo Mystery
Vance Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) I've never said that God can do anything.Can God do anything he wants? Yes.Why doesn't God want to create a "free willed person" who will be 100% obedient? Don't you want your children to be 100% obedient? Edited August 13, 2013 by Vance
danielwoods Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 So this begs the question. What is the point of creating a being that can do evil?To create a being that will want to love you. A love that is forced isn't love worth having, but a love that is freely chosen is worth more than anything in the world.
Vance Posted August 13, 2013 Posted August 13, 2013 This is only true if conceiving of something actually makes it happen.If he had not of conceived of it, would that mean that it would not have happened?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 13, 2013 Author Posted August 13, 2013 To create a being that will want to love you. A love that is forced isn't love worth having, but a love that is freely chosen is worth more than anything in the world.Why is there a need to create a being that will want to love you. So in this topic of the 5 points how can man give this love if he is not worth anything and God does it all?
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