Predestination. You Asked For It Here It Is.

[BlueDreams]

Got busy. But I did read the article, wanting a better understanding of your beliefs.

Thanks for being patient with me on this.

Regarding your first paragraph I toatally understand this. I was not expecting my statement that I see it in the Bible to be in anyway persuasive, but rather just laying the foundation of why I have this view. Some people (non LDS) I find are against this view simply because they dont like it. I hear phrases like "I couldnt worship a God like that". For me you worship God like He is, as He is God and worthy of all worship regardless of whether He does things how you like, I was simply just showing that (at least in my mind) I have come to this conclusion not just because I like it etc.

Regarding your 2nd paragraph I appreciate and respect that you have come to this conclusion in a similar way.

Ok, gotcha.

I can understand how others could say that. I don't think that is necessarily a wrong reaction. It can be (like assuming god would never punish anyone for anything they've ever done....a feel good idea, but robs justice and definitely hard to find in scripture)....but I also think it can be a way of figuring when things are actually wrong. Why, though should always be fleshed out and with actual support for a belief beyond just gut reaction IMO.

So how does this glorify God, my favourite preacher explains it excellently here. (not an anti-Mormon site in anyway)

My reaction to it was still a little confusion….certain parts I had to read twice. But I think I understood his main points. To summarize (correct me if I’m wrong): The first part he talks about how many actually find comfort in the “sovereignty of God” as he quoted which I took to mean the absolute control the Lord has over all, especially sin and suffering. It appeared that many viewed the sufferings as what God had designed for them. And he described this as what many needed to know when they were suffering. He then went one to describe it as absolute control over who was saved/not. He pointed to criticism of this as having less understanding of God and His ways. That this means shows god’s Glory absolutely. Basically his power and wrath gives greater backdrop to his (undeserved) mercy on those he chooses to save. Does this sound about right?

As I read, I could see how he got to those conclusions.....but I disagreed with them and I strongly dislike any reasoning that points to how little we can really understand God's reasons for doing things as an argument for something. To me, I could find valid arguments with scriptural evidence that could easily lead to a different interpretation one that does not have to remove the desire for an emotional cushion (as it described). I prefer the God who will "not blot out his name out of the book of like" to the person who "overcomes...." which also infers to me that we were already in it at one point. A God who acknowledges and places in us something divine....that our actions and choices decide our fates. I can see the draw to it as he mentioned: a feeling that God is in absolute control of everything is comforting...but it's an idea best balanced IMO to allow more capacity for moral agency and less fatalism for the individuals.

To me, as I read, I dislike how it makes mankind more like objects than relational to God. I don't mean this harshly....but it reminded me of painting. Where humanity is deduced to colors: some dark to recede and some light to highlight....all for the pleasure of the painter, nothing more. I prefer one that is more relational, filled with the depths of God's love and emotion of all seeing in each child the potential for something divine.

Basically, in finding comfort and strength in the idea of a God who's in control of our lives, this philosophy diminishes meaning in our existence, potential, and relationship to God. I can see how it can be seen as a way to describe a glorious God....but I see a better way, that is still scriptural, and greatly expands our relationship to Him while increasing my understanding of Him, leading to less need of relying on the argument that he's so mysterious we can't understand why He would be something that feels more callous, and still maintains an appropriate balance between both mercy and justice.

That's my overall reaction to the article. If this has been mentioned before, sorry....I haven't read the last few pages yet. Take care.

With luv,

BD

Edited August 12, 2013 by BlueDreams

[danielwoods]

He was God because he was more intelligent than the rest.

What made him more intelligent?

[danielwoods]

So your will was in existence before you were in existence?

That's an interesting notion, but I would suggest impossible particularly given your premises.

You say God knew your choices before you existed. Thus, your choice was made before you were created--meaning your will pre-existed creation. Indeed, God could have made you to make the opposite choices you've made, given your premises. Given your premises He is the ultimate decider of what choices each of His creations will make. How so? Because only He pre-existed creation. Only He conveived of each choice that each of His creations would make.

Didn't say my will was in existence before I was.

And just because God has fore-knowledge, doesn't mean he controls our choices.

[Calm]

He was God because he was more intelligent than the rest.

A scripture reference supporting this:

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/3.18?lang=eng#17

[Calm]

He is not subject too anything, I am saying that He is perfectly Holy and therefore could never do anything to go against that Holiness.

And how is this different to why he is committed to the Plan of Salvation?

He could violate the Plan of Salvation if he so desired, but he would never desired to do so because of his godly attributes of love and mercy and purity and holiness.

Edited August 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[stemelbow]

Didn't say my will was in existence before I was.

And just because God has fore-knowledge, doesn't mean he controls our choices.

So you said that God knew your choices before you existed. Then you said that your choices originate with your will. That is a contadction if you say your will was not in existence before you. As it is God knew of your choices before you existed. In that God created you out of nothing, and could have designed your will and thus choices anyway He wanted, this would suggest your choices did not originate with your will. Your choices pre-existed you, as you suggested.

[Calm]

If God is subject to Laws it is a massive difference to Him actually setting the laws. Its the difference between their being one God and many, and our Heavenly Father having a heavenly Father and so on, its the difference between Mormonism and Christianity.

I think you are making assumptions about what many LDS believe as opposed to what is considered official doctrine. Edited August 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

because of this ALL humanity was affected from that point on. All of humanity born after that point are sinful by nature

And yet it seems to me this is not what the verse is saying, that we were sinful from the moment we were created as opposed to 'turning aside from righteousness to sin', 'becoming' sinful rather than starting out that way.

12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;

[Calm]

a feeling that God is in absolute control of everything is comforting

I would think this would only be comforting if one was absolutely certain that in the end one was one of the saved...but then what if one was wrong? What if one had convinced oneself one was saved and wasn't? What is stopping people from doing this? (not asking you, BD, but the Calvinists who are responding on the thread. ) Edited August 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

What made him more intelligent?

His eternal nature. (intelligence is not identical to what is measured with an IQ test)

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/93.29?lang=eng#28

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.

36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

Edited August 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[danielwoods]

So you said that God knew your choices before you existed. Then you said that your choices originate with your will. That is a contadction if you say your will was not in existence before you. As it is God knew of your choices before you existed. In that God created you out of nothing, and could have designed your will and thus choices anyway He wanted, this would suggest your choices did not originate with your will. Your choices pre-existed you, as you suggested.

No where in your reply have you addressed the concept of foreknowledge. IF God prophecies that this or that will happen. Does that mean he's controlling this or that?

Just because God foreknew my choices doesn't indicate that my will or I existed. Nor does it indicate that he created my will to act as he foresaw.

[danielwoods]

His eternal nature.

And how is that different from everyone else then? Doesn't everyone have an eternal nature?

[Calm]

And how is that different from everyone else then? Doesn't everyone have an eternal nature?

Yes, but not everyone has the same kind.

Intelligence is our eternal nature, I added to the post, please reread it.

[Stone holm]

So you said that God knew your choices before you existed. Then you said that your choices originate with your will. That is a contadction if you say your will was not in existence before you. As it is God knew of your choices before you existed. In that God created you out of nothing, and could have designed your will and thus choices anyway He wanted, this would suggest your choices did not originate with your will. Your choices pre-existed you, as you suggested.

No. The intelligence(s) that make up your spirit body are co-eternal with Heavenly Father. However some on this thread are arguing that God knows what choices each individual will make before they are sent to Earth to receive a body. Others, like myself, say no this is inconsistent with free will and places Heavenly Father in a very awkward moral position -- thus we reject this form of Ominiscience as tantamount ot predestination. Personally although I do not agree with ex nihilo -- I do not think it is relevant to the debate over predestination since there is no reason why god couldn't design a being to have free will -- I just don't think he designed any beings in that sense.

[Calm]

So you said that God knew your choices before you existed. Then you said that your choices originate with your will. That is a contadction if you say your will was not in existence before you. As it is God knew of your choices before you existed. In that God created you out of nothing, and could have designed your will and thus choices anyway He wanted, this would suggest your choices did not originate with your will. Your choices pre-existed you, as you suggested.

It would be so helpful if we could all sit in front of a white board and be able to draw timeline diagrams that chart out what happens when and have arrows pointing to cause, etc.

[danielwoods]

Yes, but not everyone has the same kind.

Intelligence is our eternal nature, I added to the post, please reread it.

I reread that, but didn't understand all of it.

My question is who determined what sort of intelligences we'd have?

The reason for my question (I don't mean to badger) is that what I see happening is what is often called an infinite regress.

Where I have been hearing from the LDS that God can't create a free willed being, due to his having all the control. So ultimately it's a mystery as to how exactly God was able to create us free willed beings.

On the other hand the LDS claim that our intelligences existed eternally, just like God, yet how did that happen? I'm suspecting that ultimately that is seen as a mystery as well.

[Stone holm]

I reread that, but didn't understand all of it.

My question is who determined what sort of intelligences we'd have?

The reason for my question (I don't mean to badger) is that what I see happening is what is often called an infinite regress.

Where I have been hearing from the LDS that God can't create a free willed being, due to his having all the control. So ultimately it's a mystery as to how exactly God was able to create us free willed beings.

On the other hand the LDS claim that our intelligences existed eternally, just like God, yet how did that happen? I'm suspecting that ultimately that is seen as a mystery as well.

No we just kick certain issues down the road a ways, possibly eternally if you study Hie Onto Kolob carefully.

[Calm]

daniel, I can't remember if I have recommended to you this before or not, but it should be helpful with putting LDS concepts together. Plus generally speaking, this does not contain where leaders have added their personal interpretation to what has actually been revealed, revelation being what most consider to be official doctrine as opposed to certain extrapolated beliefs:

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng

Here is the chapter on God the Father:

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-1-our-father-in-heaven?lang=eng

Reading the additional scriptures at the end of the lesson is recommended for a more complete understanding.

[Calm]

More info on "intelligence":

http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-90-100/section-93-truth-is-knowledge-of-things--?lang=eng

D&C 93:29. How Is the Word Intelligence Used?

Elder John A. Widtsoe noted that “intelligence as used by Latter-day Saints has two chief meanings. … First, a man who gathers knowledge and uses it in harmony with the plan of salvation is intelligent. He has intelligence. … Second, the word when preceded by the article an, or used in the plural as intelligences, means a person, or persons, usually in the spiritual estate. Just as we speak of a person or persons, we speak of an intelligence, orintelligences.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 3:74; see alsoAbraham 3:22–23.)

We know very little about the concept of intelligence. President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual.” (Progress of Man, p. 11.)

[Calm]

I reread that, but didn't understand all of it.

My question is who determined what sort of intelligences we'd have?

No one, they have always existed.

Where I have been hearing from the LDS that God can't create a free willed being, due to his having all the control. So ultimately it's a mystery as to how exactly God was able to create us free willed beings.

On the other hand the LDS claim that our intelligences existed eternally, just like God, yet how did that happen? I'm suspecting that ultimately that is seen as a mystery as well.

And I would agree completely. I think I've already mentioned that we have our mysteries...our "articles of faith" if you will, just as you have. This is one of them. Hopefully the quotes I gave help explain this.

If any LDS states "we have all the answers", they have just not thought of all the questions yet. There is a lot out there we have to say "we don't know, the Lord has promised further revelation when it is time". We do believe that we will comprehend at sometime, but as my signature says it will be a long, long time into the next life in all probability before we reach that level of understanding...at least if the process of learning continues to be about the same in the next life as it is now. I can see that we might have access to this knowledge once we become truly one with the Father as he has promised us in the scriptures through something besides what we usually think of as learning. It might be like plugging into a vast database and having instant connection the moment we need it or our minds simply having the 'light' turned on all at once, flooding us with the knowledge that God shares with us.

[Calm]

No we just kick certain issues down the road a ways, possibly eternally if you study Hie Onto Kolob carefully.

As daniel says, "an infinite regress". Thus making it a mystery at this point in time.... Edited August 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[stemelbow]

Daniel woods:

No where in your reply have you addressed the concept of foreknowledge. IF God prophecies that this or that will happen. Does that mean he's controlling this or that?

If God conceived of every choice you would make before you or your will was in existence, then yes, it would logically follow that your will and thus your choices were made for you before you existed. The choices were not wrought by your will originally, they came because God conceived of them for you.

Just because God foreknew my choices doesn't indicate that my will or I existed. Nor does it indicate that he created my will to act as he foresaw.

So are you suggesting that God did not create you as He pleased?

The problem here is in yoru claim to a free will. You simply can't choose something different from what God conceived of you choosing. Thus, it's not your will, but what God conceived.

[stemelbow]

No. The intelligence(s) that make up your spirit body are co-eternal with Heavenly Father. However some on this thread are arguing that God knows what choices each individual will make before they are sent to Earth to receive a body. Others, like myself, say no this is inconsistent with free will and places Heavenly Father in a very awkward moral position -- thus we reject this form of Ominiscience as tantamount ot predestination. Personally although I do not agree with ex nihilo -- I do not think it is relevant to the debate over predestination since there is no reason why god couldn't design a being to have free will -- I just don't think he designed any beings in that sense.

Stone holm,

I was explaining the problem with the traditional Christian concept on this point to Daniel in this post you quoted. The traditional Christian perspective has nothing to do with eternal intelligences.

But I am LDS and agree with your overall point.

[danielwoods]

Daniel woods:

If God conceived of every choice you would make before you or your will was in existence, then yes, it would logically follow that your will and thus your choices were made for you before you existed. The choices were not wrought by your will originally, they came because God conceived of them for you.

So are you suggesting that God did not create you as He pleased?

The problem here is in yoru claim to a free will. You simply can't choose something different from what God conceived of you choosing. Thus, it's not your will, but what God conceived.

So, you don't think that foreknowledge exists?

God can't foreknow what people will do, and prophecy based on that foreknowledge?

[danielwoods]

No one, they have always existed.

And I would agree completely. I think I've already mentioned that we have our mysteries...our "articles of faith" if you will, just as you have. This is one of them. Hopefully the quotes I gave help explain this.

If any LDS states "we have all the answers", they have just not thought of all the questions yet. There is a lot out there we have to say "we don't know, the Lord has promised further revelation when it is time". We do believe that we will comprehend at sometime, but as my signature says it will be a long, long time into the next life in all probability before we reach that level of understanding...at least if the process of learning continues to be about the same in the next life as it is now. I can see that we might have access to this knowledge once we become truly one with the Father as he has promised us in the scriptures through something besides what we usually think of as learning. It might be like plugging into a vast database and having instant connection the moment we need it or our minds simply having the 'light' turned on all at once, flooding us with the knowledge that God shares with us.

Thanks, having this confirmed makes it easier to understand the "No that's not logical..." statements.