Predestination. You Asked For It Here It Is.

[jwhitlock]

Not at all. This is false, unless you believe that God is unable to create a free willed being.

He is unable to do so out of nothing.

[jwhitlock]

But your still not answering my question about whether the Potter has a right to do what the passage says.

The potter has no right or ability to be arbitrary in His actions. I do not see that passage of scripture as justifying the view of an arbitrary God. He saves according to a set of rules, including taking into account the free will of all individuals. And He can do so because He did not create us out of nothing.

In effect, interpreting Romans 9 as you do while coupling it with the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo paints a picture if an unjust God - one that does not exist. In reality He judges us by the rules and is not arbitrary at all.

[Calm]

You'll notice I put, "within limits" because when we sin, we aren't being what we were designed to be.

Isn't that a logical consequence of being an imperfect free will being though?

[Calm]

By putting your faith in Christ you are saved as the Bible says, however you only put that faith in Christ because you were drawn by God to do so. (John 6:44)

And even if one desires to be drawn to God, if one isn't one isn't saved?

There are a lot of people over the years who have believed in hellfire and eternal damnation and desire heaven over hell, they see that gift of God, to be saved as a good thing...yet they cannot receive it unless God wills it so, no matter how they humble themselves and ask God for it?

[Calm]

That goes back to the earlier issue of going against His will lying etc, so the answer is no, He cannot go back on His word, as that would not please Him.

So how is this different than the Plan of Salvation where he created a plan for man that pleases him and is carrying it out?

[danielwoods]

I apologize in advance for my response. I mean this as a sincere question ==>>

Is it possible that God can create a stone so large, so heavy that he cannot lift it?

LDS would say that God cannot contradict himself, cannot violate natural law. So, the answer is that he cannot create a being, ex nihlo, that would have free will.

No. Logical contradictions God is not. Can he violate natural law? Of course. Did he part the Red Sea? Stop the Sun? Heal the sick?

He is unable to do so out of nothing.

In the past (In this thread) I've asked why this is, and the answer I've gotten is that it is contradictory. Which doesn't make sense to me. I don't see the contradiction. Anymore than a human couple can pro-create a free willed being. Why is God so limited in your view?

IF all that existed for eternity was God, before he created the angels and then the Universe. I don't see the difficulty with creating a free-willed being out of nothing initially, for God.

Now, if we all existed for eternity as did God, then I don't know, but it seems if God is still in control, the contradiction would remain since he's still the one controlling everything.

[danielwoods]

Daniel,

I understand that we have a very different view of God, and his Plan for us. I see many difficulties with your position, and I'm sure you feel the same way about mine. The time will certainly come when the truth of the matter will become evident, either in this life or the next.

In the meantime, we can simply respect each other's views, even if we do not agree or even understand them.

It basically comes down to sola scriptura (only the Bible), or continuing revelation from those claiming to be prophets.

It appears that we do believe in a different God (a different view is a different God in my view).

I do respect your view and that you thoughtfully hold it. Understanding your view to the point that I could defend it, if asked to, is one of my goals.

I do agree that the crux of our differences comes down to where we get truth from.

[danielwoods]

Isn't that a logical consequence of being an imperfect free will being though?

Not sure what you mean by imperfect free will being?

I believe that we have a perfectly free moral will, able to choose right and wrong, as God designed.

[MrG]

So how is this different than the Plan of Salvation where he created a plan for man that pleases him and is carrying it out?

You dont see a difference between all I have said and the LDS plan of salvation? You must be a Calvinist, my answer would be that God is able to set all laws that He wishes rather than being subject to Laws that precede Him.

[MrG]

And even if one desires to be drawn to God, if one isn't one isn't saved?

There are a lot of people over the years who have believed in hellfire and eternal damnation and desire heaven over hell, they see that gift of God, to be saved as a good thing...yet they cannot receive it unless God wills it so, no matter how they humble themselves and ask God for it?

This is where Total depravity comes in.

Romans 3:10-12

10 as it is written,

“There is none righteous, not evenone;

11 There is none who understands,

There is none who seeks for God;

12 All have turned aside,together they have become useless;

There is none who does good,

There is not even one.”

According to this there is no one really seeking God, so therefore no one will truly humble themselves before God to accept Christ unless they are drawn first. So then if they do truly put their faith in Christ its by virtue of being among the elect.

Free will comes in here in that because people are by nature children of wrath (Eph 2:3) they are not seeking God as their will does not allow for it due to their depraved nature, God changes this nature in the elect and draws them to Himself.

Edited August 11, 2013 by MrG

[jwhitlock]

No. Logical contradictions God is not. Can he violate natural law? Of course. Did he part the Red Sea? Stop the Sun? Heal the sick?

In the past (In this thread) I've asked why this is, and the answer I've gotten is that it is contradictory. Which doesn't make sense to me. I don't see the contradiction. Anymore than a human couple can pro-create a free willed being. Why is God so limited in your view?

Free will, by definition, must contain an aspect of total independence from God. In creatio ex nihilo, it is impossible for God's influence to NOT be in any part of something He creates - including the will of that individual. So in creatio ex nihilo, an individual can have will, but not free will. It is what ever will God created - from nothing - in that person.

The analogy of a human couple is invalid, because it's not creatio ex nihilo in that case.

IF all that existed for eternity was God, before he created the angels and then the Universe. I don't see the difficulty with creating a free-willed being out of nothing initially, for God.

Now, if we all existed for eternity as did God, then I don't know, but it seems if God is still in control, the contradiction would remain since he's still the one controlling everything

Free will means we allow ourselves to submit to God. In creatio ex nihilo, we cannot make that choice since God is in total and perfect control over the process of creation. If a part of us exists independently of God, then if we submit ourselves to His judgments, then His judgments are just - because we have the free will and power to make our own choices ultimately. That ultimate power is denied to a being created out of nothing; whatever will that being has is ultimately subject to the God who created it out of nothing.

[jwhitlock]

Not sure what you mean by imperfect free will being?

I believe that we have a perfectly free moral will, able to choose right and wrong, as God designed.

We are deeply constrained in this life in our ability to choose. We have free will to choose from limited options with our limited understanding. That's why it's imperfect.

Nonetheless, we do have true free will because there is part of us that was not created by God. Even with the limited choices we have, we still can truly exercise a choice and call it our own, not something God designed into us.

[jwhitlock]

This is where Total depravity comes in.

Romans 3:10-12

10 as it is written,

“There is none righteous, not evenone;

11 There is none who understands,

There is none who seeks for God;

12 All have turned aside,together they have become useless;

There is none who does good,

There is not even one.”

According to this there is no one really seeking God, so therefore no one will truly humble themselves before God to accept Christ unless they are drawn first. So then if they do truly put their faith in Christ its by virtue of being among the elect.

Free will comes in here in that because people are by nature children of wrath (Eph 2:3) they are not seeking God as their will does not allow for it due to their depraved nature, God changes this nature in the elect and draws them to Himself.

Interesting scripture. What I have bolded indicates that there must have been a time when we were useful and unified with God; otherwise we could not have turned from it and BECOME useless. Yet you have indicated that God made us to be sinful beings by nature. A bit of a contradiction there on your part, but support for the LDS doctrine that we existed before this life.

[MrG]

Interesting scripture. What I have bolded indicates that there must have been a time when we were useful and unified with God; otherwise we could not have turned from it and BECOME useless. Yet you have indicated that God made us to be sinful beings by nature. A bit of a contradiction there on your part, but support for the LDS doctrine that we existed before this life.

Yes they were called Adam and Eve.

[jwhitlock]

Yes they were called Adam and Eve.

That's a bit of a stretch, since I see no reference to Adam and Eve, and the scripture is quite specific about ALL (that would include the rest of us) having turned aside.

[MrG]

That's a bit of a stretch, since I see no reference to Adam and Eve, and the scripture is quite specific about ALL (that would include the rest of us) having turned aside.

Humanity my friend. Here are the results of Adams sin

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

[jwhitlock]

Humanity my friend. Here are the results of Adams sin

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Still a stretch since in order to turn from something,we (including us) must have been in compliance with it in the first place. Otherwise the scripture would have been phrased differently, such as telling us that we were created sinful out of nothing because Adam sinned.

However, it doesn't do that.

[MrG]

Still a stretch since in order to turn from something,we (including us) must have been in compliance with it in the first place. Otherwise the scripture would have been phrased differently, such as telling us that we were created sinful out of nothing because Adam sinned.

However, it doesn't do that.

Lets face it mate there is nothing I or the Bible could say to convince you of this one, and thats fine, Im done for the night now and got 5 long days of work coming so talk soon!

[Calm]

Not sure what you mean by imperfect free will being?

I believe that we have a perfectly free moral will, able to choose right and wrong, as God designed.

But are we perfect outside of that free will or are we capable of sin/imperfections/mistakes?

[Calm]

You dont see a difference between all I have said and the LDS plan of salvation? You must be a Calvinist, my answer would be that God is able to set all laws that He wishes rather than being subject to Laws that precede Him.

I am just referring to this specific comment of yours:

God is subject in the plan of salvation that He puts His children

No, I am not a Calvinist. There are many LDS that believe God set the laws himself, not that laws preceded him. Some believe that he set some laws while being coeternal with others.

If God created the laws that are specifically involved in why the Plan of Salvation works to bring man back to God, then would you say that God is subject to the Plan anymore than your interpretation of God has him subject to the laws that he has created?

[jwhitlock]

Lets face it mate there is nothing I or the Bible could say to convince you of this one, and thats fine, Im done for the night now and got 5 long days of work coming so talk soon!

More accurately, I do not agree with your interpretation of the Bible. The BIble tells me quite a bit; I just don't see it supporting Calvinist theology.

[Calm]

This is where Total depravity comes in.

Romans 3:10-12

10 as it is written,

“There is none righteous, not evenone;

11 There is none who understands,

There is none who seeks for God;

12 All have turned aside,together they have become useless;

There is none who does good,

There is not even one.”

According to this there is no one really seeking God,....

Free will comes in here in that because people are by nature children of wrath

They aren't seeking because God created them that way, giving them a "free will" that will never choose him, but always choose to reject him?

If a pair of dice alway lands on double sixes and no matter what you try to do to them, they continue to land on double sixes, would you describe that as the dice having the nature of being able to come up with multiple answers or just one?

A cable company offers unlimited TV to anyone who watches (and it is all there in the listings) and then gives them a control that only allows them to access one channel, do these customers have the free will to choose whatever is in the unlimited channels or just the one channel?

A hotel offers an all you can eat buffet breakfast of a thousand dishes but when you get there you find that while the tables are filled with all these dishes just as advertised, they are all behind unaccessible glass and you can only reach the mushy oatmeal with no raisins. Unlimited buffet to choose freely from or not?

Free giveaway at the local clothing store...choose whatever suit you want....and then you get there and find out the whole store is packed full of a pea green suit that is size extra extra extra large and not only that but by taking it, you have to sign a paper that gives your salary for the rest of your life, all your possessions and relationship to the owner of the store for whom you work for, plus get fired....but what a deal! It's free. And it doesn't really matter anyway because you are working for the owner and the house and your family were given to you by him anyway, so it's surely just for him to take it away whenever he wants even though he told you that you could keep it all and he wouldn't fire you if you came to the next interview in a sharp, three piece pinstriped suit which he said he would give to a few....only you were one of those chosen to get it. But no worries, you still get to choose that awful pea green suit three sizes bigger than you that smells as if it was taken off a four day old corpse....no wonder you want it.

Now this is how it appears to me, perhaps I have it wrong since as I said before I know some pretty great people who tell me they are calvinists and love God...but they've never been able to explain their belief to me in such a way that I see God as the ultimate expression of love as they say he is.

Edited August 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Lets face it mate there is nothing I or the Bible could say to convince you of this one, and thats fine, Im done for the night now and got 5 long days of work coming so talk soon!

But you were the one who said "all" applied to all of mankind, but then you said "Adam and Eve" only when asked when we all turned aside.

Were we created in spirit before Adam and Eve fell and when they fell, did we make that same choice to turn aside or did we come into being after the Fall with our sinful natures operational at the time we came into being? If the first, why did we all make that same choice? If the second, how can you then say we "all " turned aside when we were never going down the path of righteousness in the first place? And if we had a pure nature originally, at what time then after creation (does this occur at conception or before) do we acquire that sinful nature and is it a choice that we choose or one that just happens to us due to God's Will?

I am really trying to understand the full Calvinist view and greatly appreciate your willingness to answer questions. I hope that you return in five days and keep trying to help us understand....even those of us certain we get it already.

Edited August 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[danielwoods]

Free will, by definition, must contain an aspect of total independence from God. In creatio ex nihilo, it is impossible for God's influence to NOT be in any part of something He creates - including the will of that individual. So in creatio ex nihilo, an individual can have will, but not free will. It is what ever will God created - from nothing - in that person.

The analogy of a human couple is invalid, because it's not creatio ex nihilo in that case.

How are the two different?

One God creates the will out of nothing, it didn't exist before.

The other the Parents create the will from their own loins, the child born didn't exist before.

In the first, God creates the will is patterned after his own (based on his desire to share his love/relationship).

In the second, Parents do the same, although they don't have the ability to create a will outside of what God designed.

Free will means we allow ourselves to submit to God. In creatio ex nihilo, we cannot make that choice since God is in total and perfect control over the process of creation. If a part of us exists independently of God, then if we submit ourselves to His judgments, then His judgments are just - because we have the free will and power to make our own choices ultimately. That ultimate power is denied to a being created out of nothing; whatever will that being has is ultimately subject to the God who created it out of nothing.

If we existed for an eternity, as God did, what makes him greater than us? Who decided that he should be God?

[danielwoods]

We are deeply constrained in this life in our ability to choose. We have free will to choose from limited options with our limited understanding. That's why it's imperfect.

Nonetheless, we do have true free will because there is part of us that was not created by God. Even with the limited choices we have, we still can truly exercise a choice and call it our own, not something God designed into us.

I'd call our will limited to morality, not imperfect. If it's not something designed by God, then who designed it?

But are we perfect outside of that free will or are we capable of sin/imperfections/mistakes?

We aren't perfect except through Christ.