Some Mormons Search The Web And Find Doubt

[ERayR]

As I've said, and I'll keep saying it, go ahead and continue the mantra that we don't need to change and we will continue to see NYT articles like this one.

We will continue to see NYT type articles, change or no change.

As I have said before this is a time for each to sift and sort themselves to a place where they are most comfortable.If that comfort level is as a doubter then something will come up to allow them to be doubters. It is a matter of choice. Some will choose to let themselves be swayed by doubt some will not. "Choose ye this day. . .".

[rockpond]

The church's authority in a person's life stems from personal revelation. A testimony can be gained without knowing anything of the church's history. It's history is interesting and important but I'm not understanding how it is authoritative.

You are conflating authority and testimony. Yes, a testimony comes from personal revelation and can be sufficient to weather anything. (Questions 1 & 2 in the TR interview.)

The church's authority is derived through its historical narrative: the Restoration. (Questions 3 & 4 in the TR interview.)

[bluebell]

70-80 minutes over the course of 50 weeks per year seems like plenty of time to me. Or, like I've said, we can just keep doing what we are doing and let Givens/Prince/Dehlin/Reel take the helm on the more difficult stuff.

And this is where we disagree.

As I said before, 70-80 minutes over the course of 50 weeks isn't enough time to cover what we are supposed to be covering right now. If we add more to that, other things are going to have to be removed-things which serve the mission of the church much better than teaching history.

I do believe there are other routes that the church can and probably should take to make it's history and these controversial topics easier to learn about through church sources (and I think they are definitely moving that direction already), but I disagree that Sunday is the place or time to do so or that we need to give more authority to men like Givens/Prince/Dehlin/Reel (nothing against them) than they warrant to accomplish it.

[rockpond]

We will continue to see NYT type articles, change or no change.

As I have said before this is a time for each to sift and sort themselves to a place where they are most comfortable.If that comfort level is as a doubter then something will come up to allow them to be doubters. It is a matter of choice. Some will choose to let themselves be swayed by doubt some will not. "Choose ye this day. . .".

I don't disagree that agency is at play in all of this but, I think there are things that can be done to help prevent cases like Brother & Sister Mattson.

[rockpond]

And this is where we disagree.

As I said before, 70-80 minutes over the course of 50 weeks isn't enough time to cover what we are supposed to be covering right now. If we add more to that, other things are going to have to be removed-things which serve the mission of the church much better than teaching history.

I do believe there are other routes that the church can and probably should take to make it's history and these controversial topics easier to learn about through church sources (and I think they are definitely moving that direction already), but I disagree that Sunday is the place or time to do so or that we need to give more authority to men like Givens/Prince/Dehlin/Reel (nothing against them) than they warrant to accomplish it.

Okay -- if there is another place to do it, that's great.

But right now, Given/Prince/Dehlin/Rell are being given more authority because they are addressing the problems.

[Tacenda]

You really can talk about all of these 'secrets' (which actually aren't secrets at all of course), you just have to know where to do it.

Any member of the church can teach about church history during Family Home Evening, for example, and the curriculum for that really is endless. Or they can attend Institute (JS's plural marriage-though not all the particulars--is taught as part of the Institute courses). Maybe taking a religion class online from a church school if possible is option.

Though the church does not teach its history very in-depth on Sundays, there are other options a person can choose from if they really want to learn more and discuss these subjects with others.

Tacenda, perhaps one of these options would be a good avenue for you.

Yes, these might be helpful, and I appreciate your mentioning them. But the dysfunctional part comes in when I can't discuss with friends, some family, well most family and neighbors. Because if I did then I would be some kind of fiend. How come? Would you bring up the fact to anyone like I mentioned without reservation? That's how it's hidden. I was reading somewhere, now can't think, it may have been the recent transcript with Bro. Jensen & Turley. That Joseph Smith's wives will be listed in the JS's Papers Project. Or somewhere, now I wish I could go back and refer. This is progress, but more needs to be done. So that one can discuss and give kudos to these many polygamist wives. Just like the scriptures not many women are mentioned too often. Now we have the wives of JS that aren't mentioned much, if at all. Just in geneology. Not their story until the book "In Sacred Loneliness" came out, which btw isn't available any longer through Deseret Bookstore. Unless online only, not sure. Edited July 23, 2013 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

You are conflating authority and testimony. Yes, a testimony comes from personal revelation and can be sufficient to weather anything. (Questions 1 & 2 in the TR interview.)

The church's authority is derived through its historical narrative: the Restoration. (Questions 3 & 4 in the TR interview.)

I'm not conflating the two. I'm trying to deal with the realities of what this issue means in a person's life since that seems to be the issue of the OP-how the history impacts people.

I'm saying that for a person, it doesn't matter what happened in the church's past, it only matters what they believe about it. Without a confirmation of it's truth, the history is irrelevant.

The restoration (as it pertains to authority) isn't the church's history. If that wasn't the case, no one could answer questions 3 & 4 of the temple recommend interview without first having a firm grasp on the history. But people answer those questions (sincerely and truthfully) all the time with almost no real understanding of the church's actual history.

Apparently Elder Mattsson himself had done so for years for example.

[bluebell]

Okay -- if there is another place to do it, that's great.

But right now, Given/Prince/Dehlin/Rell are being given more authority because they are addressing the problems.

There are many more people and places on the internet than those who are addressing the problems though, and that is what I meant by not giving only a handful of people more relevance than they actually deserve.

[rockpond]

I'm not conflating the two. I'm trying to deal with the realities of what this issue means in a person's life since that seems to be the issue of the OP-how the history impacts people.

I'm saying that for a person, it doesn't matter what happened in the church's past, it only matters what they believe about it. Without a confirmation of it's truth, the history is irrelevant.

And if they believe that they have been betrayed by the church because it hid its history from them? Sometimes that can override the spiritual confirmation they had received.

The restoration (as it pertains to authority) isn't the church's history.

When I was on my mission (pre-Preach My Gospel) the first discussion included Joseph Smith's vision.

Visitations by John the Baptist and Peter, James, & John.

The succession to Brigham Young.

The authority of the church is rooted in these historical events. If you feel like the history has been manufactured it throws all of these into question.

[bluebell]

Yes, these might be helpful, and I appreciate your mentioning them. But the dysfunctional part comes in when I can't discuss with friends, some family, well most family and neighbors.

Of course you can discuss this issues with such people. I do.

Because if I did then I would be some kind of fiend. How come?

I really have no idea.

Would you bring up the fact to anyone like I mentioned without reservation?

Yes. Its never been an issue.

[rockpond]

There are many more people and places on the internet than those who are addressing the problems though, and that is what I meant by not giving only a handful of people more relevance than they actually deserve.

I'm not giving them the authority. Their audience is. If there are others with significant audiences that are discussing the problems, feel free to name them here.

[Johnnie Cake]

Suppositions piled on suppositions with a bit of mind reading and condescension thrown in. All packaged up to appear obvious. You are not a bad dissembler.

I have a minor in economics.

and from an earlier thread...we learned...

I am a writer and a linguist.

What a truly impressive educational array you bring to the various posts and threads you have chosen to bless us with here at MD&D. How fortunate we should all be that you have selected this board to share your superior genius with. I for one am very grateful. Rarely do mortals get the opportunity to bask in the light of true genius; I for one do not feel myself worthy…but do want to express my sincere indebtedness to you. What a blessing it is to all of us. And while I dare say we are not worthy of your contribution…we do appreciative that you have chosen this forum to share a portion of your vast knowledge, wisdom and experience with…how truly fortunate we all are.

I doubt that we will ever be able to put into words and be able to fully express how truly indebted we are to you for imparting your wisdom to us through your contributions here but please know that it does not go unappreciated by me. My only hope is that others in this community will take the time to express their wholehearted gratitude to you…just knowing that someone with such an impressive educational resume’ would take their time away from truly more important matters to enlighten us with their wisdom and knowledge really speaks volumes to your love of this community. Thank you for that. It goes a long way to show us all who the real Nehor is, the man behind the name. Rarely are posters such as us able to get a peek behind the curtain. Thank you for enlightening all of us…

Edited July 23, 2013 by Johnnie Cake

[Calm]

Not their story until the book "In Sacred Loneliness" came out, which btw isn't available any longer through Deseret Bookstore. Unless online only, not sure.

It's not, at least wasn't when I just looked, but that could be a decision based on how much it is bought as it is over 15 years old and may not be selling enough in their view to justify carrying it. There are a lot of more faith promoting books put out by FARMS and other publishers that aren't offered by DB as well that came out even after ISL. Edited July 23, 2013 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

Yes, these might be helpful, and I appreciate your mentioning them. But the dysfunctional part comes in when I can't discuss with friends, some family, well most family and neighbors. Because if I did then I would be some kind of fiend. How come? Would you bring up the fact to anyone like I mentioned without reservation? That's how it's hidden. I was reading somewhere, now can't think, it may have been the recent transcript with Bro. Jensen & Turley. That Joseph Smith's wives will be listed in the JS's Papers Project. Or somewhere, now I wish I could go back and refer. This is progress, but more needs to be done. So that one can discuss and give kudo's to these nameless women.

Two possible answers to your question comes to mind. 1) There is a possibility that your approach is the problem or 2) Perhaps your family and friends find these issues irrelevant and a possible 3) is your tendency to go round and round the bush.

Whether you bring it up without reservation depends on your approach.

Edited July 23, 2013 by ERayR

[bluebell]

And if they believe that they have been betrayed by the church because it hid its history from them? Sometimes that can override the spiritual confirmation they had received.

I agree that doubt, however it is introduced, can be a very dangerous thing. Like I said, i'm all for the church making it's history more available.

When I was on my mission (pre-Preach My Gospel) the first discussion included Joseph Smith's vision.

Visitations by John the Baptist and Peter, James, & John.

The succession to Brigham Young.

The authority of the church is rooted in these historical events. If you feel like the history has been manufactured it throws all of these into question.

Same when I served my mission. But that history is only provided to give the person receiving the lesson a way to pray to gain a testimony of the truth claims they are learning. It's the witness that is important and getting that witness is the objective of the lessons.

The church doesn't use it's history to try to convince people of it's authority.

[The Nehor]

What a truly impressive educational array you bring to the various posts and threads you have chosen to bless us with here at MD&D. How fortunate we should all be that you have selected this board to share your superior genius with.

I had no idea having a dual major and a minor was that awe-inspiring to you. You will find many on this board who have achieved much more academically. Be careful. You may develop an inferiority complex and then your whole house of cards about the highly educated and wealthy such as yourself fleeing the church might collapse.

[rockpond]

Same when I served my mission. But that history is only provided to give the person receiving the lesson a way to pray to gain a testimony of the truth claims they are learning. It's the witness that is important and getting that witness is the objective of the lessons.

The church doesn't use it's history to try to convince people of it's authority.

Really? It doesn't say that it has authority because that authority came through heavenly visitations? Alright.

[bluebell]

I'm not giving them the authority. Their audience is. If there are others with significant audiences that are discussing the problems, feel free to name them here.

I think that FAIR and others like that (Jeff Lindsay for example) also have very significant audiences, but that those audiences tend to be a much 'quieter' presence on the internet.

Since the squeaky wheels get the grease, I think that some audiences can seem more significant, important, or authoritative than they actually are (again, not trying to take anything away from the people you mentioned).

Those are my thoughts on that issue anyway.

[bluebell]

Really? It doesn't say that it has authority because that authority came through heavenly visitations? Alright.

Of course it says that, but it says that because it wants people to pray about it and find out for themselves. The history is important, but it's worthless to a person if they don't believe it.

(I think we're probably talking past each other on this topic at this point).

[bluebell]

and from an earlier thread...we learned...

What a truly impressive educational array you bring to the various posts and threads you have chosen to bless us with here at MD&D. How fortunate we should all be that you have selected this board to share your superior genius with. I for one am very grateful. Rarely do mortals get the opportunity to bask in the light of true genius; I for one do not feel myself worthy…but do want to express my sincere indebtedness to you. What a blessing it is to all of us. And while I dare say we are not worthy of your contribution…we do appreciative that you have chosen this forum to share a portion of your vast knowledge, wisdom and experience with…how truly fortunate we all are.

I doubt that we will ever be able to put into words and be able to fully express how truly indebted we are to you for imparting your wisdom to us through your contributions here but please know that it does not go unappreciated by me. My only hope is that others in this community will take the time to express their wholehearted gratitude to you…just knowing that someone with such an impressive educational resume’ would take their time away from truly more important matters to enlighten us with their wisdom and knowledge really speaks volumes to your love of this community. Thank you for that. It goes a long way to show us all who the real Nehor is, the man behind the name. Rarely are posters such as us able to get a peek behind the curtain. Thank you for enlightening all of us…

Johnny, you should check out Nehor's posts. He rarely takes himself seriously. He rarely takes anything seriously.

[Tacenda]

Two possible answers to your question comes to mind. 1) There is a possibility that your approach is the problem or 2) Perhaps your family and friends find these issues irrelevant and a possible 3) is your tendency to go round and round the bush.

Whether you bring it up without reservation depends on your approach.

When I mentioned it about 5 or so years ago, it was first to my neighbor, moments after seeing the josephsmithswives website, a few weeks later to my VT's, and then to my bishop. First my neighbor said it's all anti information, her mom is non LDS and tries to get her to see anti things all the time. The VT's were friends and one of them said she didn't want to hear anything that might hurt her testimony and I felt extremely guilty for even mentioning it to her and wrote her a note afterwards and apologized. The 4th person, my bishop, I had emailed him turning down a calling that one of his counselors had called me to, and he had me think about the calling to teach Primary first before turning it down. I decided to just email the bishop and tell him where I was at with my testimony and why, mentioning JS's wives, blood atonement, and Mountain Meadows Massacre and that they were troubling to me after reading about these things on the internet. I never received an email back. So now I keep my mouth shut. The only person I mention it to now is my husband and you wonderful people on the board and NOM (in the past) and Staylds.com. Edited July 23, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Johnny, you should check out Nehor's posts. He rarely takes himself seriously. He rarely takes anything seriously.

Yes, it's not his educational level only that I find awe-inspiring, but his twisted sense of humour which at times passes beyond all understanding into the truly demented.

[Calm]

First my neighbor said it's all anti information, her mom is non LDS and tries to get her to see anti things all the time.

That is understandable if her past and current experiences have been so negative she doesn't want to revisit them, even if one presents ideas in a positive way (though if you talked to her like you do sometimes on the board, I can see why it might have appeared anti to her as you some of the times come across that way due to your choice of language and ideas). I have a sister who hates coming to visit us in Utah, not because she doesn't have a great time when she gets here, but because this is where her disastrous marriage occurred and it brings back harsh memories for her that she really, really, really doesn't want to have to remember.

[Johnnie Cake]

I had no idea having a dual major and a minor was that awe-inspiring to you. You will find many on this board who have achieved much more academically. Be careful. You may develop an inferiority complex and then your whole house of cards about the highly educated and wealthy such as yourself fleeing the church might collapse.

I've always felt inferior to your superior intellect Nehor...and why shouldn't I. You are after all superior. And what an impressive academic résumé' you bring to MD&D ... No wonder I feel so inferior

[Tacenda]

That is understandable if her past and current experiences have been so negative she doesn't want to revisit them, even if one presents ideas in a positive way (though if you talked to her like you do sometimes on the board, I can see why it might have appeared anti to her as you some of the times come across that way due to your choice of language and ideas). I have a sister who hates coming to visit us in Utah, not because she doesn't have a great time when she gets here, but because this is where her disastrous marriage occurred and it brings back harsh memories for her that she really, really, really doesn't want to have to remember.

She was the one I talked to immediately after seeing it on the web. I stood up and was trying to make it register in my mind, and went outside for something and she was across the street and she walked over to visit and I told her what I had seen, and in my mind it was just so new that I wondered if she knew about it. So no, I was still very TBM and not angry or negative.