The Economy Of Heaven

[Stone holm]

I am intrigued by the comments of several Europeans on this board who seem to think American LDS have a fixation on capitalism as being nigh unto doctrine. I realise it is almost impossible to discuss Mormon economic views without getting a thread locked, but feel this a sufficiently important topic to take it up again. Capitalism as practiced in America seems to require a certain amount of greed, ambition and competition to function. I find it difficult to locate doctrine that treats any of these as truly important virtues. Although one commentator has suggested that competition may extend to heavenly spheres there seems to be little support for the concept. When you bring up the United Order in Church any praise for the system is quickly followed by condemnation of socialism based on the idea that even democratic socialism violates agency. So. Is economics simply irrelevant from an eternal perspective or not?

[Calm]

Capitalism as practiced in America seems to require a certain amount of greed, ambition and competition to function.

I disagree about the greed. Having talked to many successful entrepreneurs including a number of millionaires and a few eventually to be billionaires (imo), few come across as greedy to me though this may be related to the business culture here in Utah as well as up in Canada and perhaps it is different in New York or LA. Instead, they seem to become obsessed with the responsibility they have taken upon themselves by creating their companies and thus jobs for their employees. They fear the failure of their companies not for the loss of status or money...they see themselves as quite capable of starting from scratch again if needed, but rather for the impact it will have on the individuals and their families that are now dependent on them (in their eyes).

There is a common characteristic of individualism as well as willingness to make extreme personal sacrifices.

Capitalism itself isn't a monolithic system in America. You have the businesses that are risktakers, innovators and those who push for the status quo as well as those that are a mix of both, for example.

Edited July 6, 2013 by calmoriah

[Stone holm]

I disagree about the greed. Having talked to many successful entrepreneurs, few come across as greedy to me. Instead, they seem to become obsessed with the responsibility they have taken upon themselves by creating their companies and thus jobs for their employees. They fear the failure of their companies not for the loss of status or money...they see themselves as quite capable of starting from scratch again if needed, but rather for the impact it will have on the individuals and their families that are now dependent on them (in their eyes).

Yeah, I have seen that occasionally especial amongst new startup entrepreneurs , it is much less common elsewhere. It's more the, its nothing personal , just business elsewhere.

[JarMan]

Oh look. . . Stone holm has started yet another thread to teach us all of the evils of capitalism. (Nothing personal, SH, but this is a topic that really is not well-suited for this board.)

[Calm]

Yeah, I have seen that occasionally especial amongst new startup entrepreneurs...

Then you can't conclude it is something inherent within/required by the system, even if it is common in your view. Edited July 6, 2013 by calmoriah

[Storm Rider]

It is difficult to discuss the topic when your question makes so many assumptions about the topic that are really more gross generalization from a narrow perspective than reality. I am a capitalist, but I acknowledge there are many other systems that can function; each system has its strengths and weaknesses. Though I am a citizen of the US I also realize there are other forms of government that can function quite well and as with economic systems, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Greed, in your context of moral standard, has as much to do with capitalism as charity and brotherly kindness has to do with socialism.

[Sleeper Cell]

I am intrigued by the comments of several Europeans on this board who seem to think American LDS have a fixation on capitalism as being nigh unto doctrine. I realise it is almost impossible to discuss Mormon economic views without getting a thread locked, but feel this a sufficiently important topic to take it up again. Capitalism as practiced in America seems to require a certain amount of greed, ambition and competition to function.

The same can be said about universities, European-style parliamentary democracy, amateur sports, the performing arts, and many other non-capitalist institutions. Obsession with power and gain is hardly unique to capitalism.

[Sine Saw Square]

Greed, competition, and ambition- Those are components of the human condition, not products of any system. Economic systems seem to be attempts to respond to these tendencies, IMO. I don't think any system can remove them from the human heart, that's the business of God.

[Sine Saw Square]

Isn't ambition, pursuit of personal betterment (perhaps competition with our selves?) and spiritual comfort that which motivates us to achieve confidence before the Lord?

Eternal life and Exaltation is pretty ambitious.

[Stone holm]

Oh look. . . Stone holm has started yet another thread to teach us all of the evils of capitalism. (Nothing personal, SH, but this is a topic that really is not well-suited for this board.)

And why is that ? Because discussing the religious aspects of economics is more uncomfortable than say the religious aspects of say sex?

[changed]

... When you bring up the United Order in Church any praise for the system is quickly followed by condemnation of socialism based on the idea that even democratic socialism violates agency.

Do you understand the difference between socialism and the UO? That the UO was VOLUNTARILY entered into, while socialism is forced upon citizens who may not agree with it?

Here is a good page for you that explains many conservative LDS ideaologies:

http://www.latterdayconservative.com/videos/

It comes down to the premortal war in heaven - Satan forcing everyone to be good, vs. God giving everyone freedom to choose for themselves what they would do... ie - should charity be provided by the gov? or should people voluntarily (without a middleman) serve one another? etc.

Edited July 6, 2013 by changed

[Stone holm]

Do you understand the difference between socialism and the UO? That the UO was VOLUNTARILY entered into, while socialism is forced upon citizens who may not agree with it?

Here is a good page for you that explains many conservative LDS ideaologies:

http://www.latterdayconservative.com/videos/

It comes down to the premortal war in heaven - Satan forcing everyone to be good, vs. God giving everyone freedom to choose for themselves what they would do... ie - should charity be provided by the gov? or should people voluntarily (without a middleman) serve one another? etc.

Yep, that is the answer always given. Tell me why it is evil for the majority of the people to vote to make sure everyone is taken care of, but it is good to support a proposition which prevents people from entering into a marriage that God does not condone?

[changed]

Yep, that is the answer always given. Tell me why it is evil for the majority of the people to vote to make sure everyone is taken care of

The most efficient way to take care of others is without a middle-man... If you were given the choice of supporting a charity that has 90% overhead, vs. one (like the church) that has only a 3-4% overhead, which would you prefer? or better yet, just take care of your family and friends directly.

but it is good to support a proposition which prevents people from entering into a marriage that God does not condone?

It's not about someone's rights - it's about re-defining an institution.

Edited July 6, 2013 by changed

[Sevenbak]

While I don't know of any specific doctrine on capitalism, I do know that there has been preaching from the pulpit against those who would eliminate capitalism. Here's a sample:

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1979/10/a-witness-and-a-warning?lang=eng

Communism introduced into the world a substitute for true religion. It is a counterfeit of the gospel plan. The false prophets of Communism predict a utopian society. This, they proclaim, will only be brought about as capitalism and free enterprise are overthrown, private property abolished, the family as a social unit eliminated, all classes abolished, all governments overthrown, and a communal ownership of property in a classless, stateless society established.

Since 1917 this godless counterfeit to the gospel has made tremendous progress toward its objective of world domination.

[thesometimesaint]

Greed, competition, and ambition- Those are components of the human condition, not products of any system. Economic systems seem to be attempts to respond to these tendencies, IMO. I don't think any system can remove them from the human heart, that's the business of God.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed (for lack of a better word) is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms: greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind, and greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.

• Michael Douglas as Gordon Gekko in the film, Wall Street, directed by Oliver Stone, screnplay by Stanley Weiser.
  

[thesometimesaint]

Do you understand the difference between socialism and the UO? That the UO was VOLUNTARILY entered into, while socialism is forced upon citizens who may not agree with it?

Here is a good page for you that explains many conservative LDS ideaologies:

http://www.latterday...ive.com/videos/

It comes down to the premortal war in heaven - Satan forcing everyone to be good, vs. God giving everyone freedom to choose for themselves what they would do... ie - should charity be provided by the gov? or should people voluntarily (without a middleman) serve one another? etc.

Democratic Socialism as practiced in Europe is voluntary.

[rpn]

I read just today of an outfit that is very capitalist, that is also trying to do good for humanity (individuals and the environment). Thought some of the rest of you might see how the two can co-exist. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/scotfrank/solsource-cook-anything-under-the-sun

Edited July 6, 2013 by rpn

[CV75]

So. Is economics simply irrelevant from an eternal perspective or not?

God certainly produces, distributes and gathers His children, as His work and glory is to bring to pass their immortality and eternal life. This is kind of an economy, except nothing is consumed; all He has, and everyone like Him, exists, progresses, and accumulates. So the economy of heaven is definitely a different kind of thing than those economies we find on earth.

I would not say from His perspective that our earthly economies, while not like what He enjoys, are not irrelevant since they are a part of how we learn to become like Him. Some systems are more effective in accomplishing this than others, but even those which are revealed by Him often fail due to human frailty and sin.

I would say that most generally and ideally, private or personal ownership under the influence of the Light of Christ leads to common/community or even state ownership that also operate under the influence of the Light of Christ -- and which would therefore maintain elements of private or personal ownership as a learning mechanism. This process has to start with the individual; nothing in this world magically arises as a gestalt, so capitalism in my opinion is where group success begins, based on individual success.

As abusively as either system has been implemented in this world, I think it is easier to identify elements of freedom in the roots of capitalism than in the origins of other systems, which have typically relied on or co-opted the fruits of individual production, distribution and consumption through a displacement of someone’s freedom. "Pure" capitalism has to exist before "pure" communism just like an innocent child has to exist before a mensch -- but unfortunately, "sin conceiveth in their hearts" interrupting the desired transition.

[Stone holm]

Democratic Socialism as practiced in Europe is voluntary.

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of confusion over the difference between Marxist Communism as practiced after the overthrow of the aristocracy. In Russia as it eventually morphed into something truly despicable under Stalin, and democratic socialism. The democratic socialism arose as those of the poorer classes who did the majority of the bleeding in WWII demanded an economic system that treated everyone with dignity. It did not involve communally owned property or even state owned industry, and certainly was not atheistic. But once you launch a crusade, its hard to get it to stop. The real response is that in fact with the U of O's stewardships and turning over of surpluses to the Bishops it was closer to communism, than democratic socialism which is more capitalistic. The odd thing now is the ardent capitalists are taking advantage of a police state labor force in a communist country, so you don't hear much about the civil rights abuses of communism anymore.

[JarMan]

And why is that ? Because discussing the religious aspects of economics is more uncomfortable than say the religious aspects of say sex?

I am particularly annoyed by SSM threads and those that are similar to it. And it has nothing to do with comfort. In fact I love discussing economics. But my experience on this board tells me that these types of threads don't last long.

[JarMan]

Yep, that is the answer always given. Tell me why it is evil for the majority of the people to vote to make sure everyone is taken care of, but it is good to support a proposition which prevents people from entering into a marriage that God does not condone?

This is an improper analogy. The proper analogy involves forced redistribution of wealth vs. laws that prohibit sexual behavior between consenting adults. Laws that criminalize homosexuality do "force morality" onto people and should be done away with. In the same way, laws that "force morality" by requiring us to give our substance to others need to be done away with, as well. Resistance to SSM has nothing to do with "forcing morality" onto others, in my view. There are several legitimate reasons to oppose it that having nothing to do with morality, per se. But I really don't want to go down the SSM rabbit hole in this thread because there are a hundred and one other threads to discuss that issue.

[JarMan]

Democratic Socialism as practiced in Europe is voluntary.

Really?????? What happens in Europe if you don't pay your taxes?

[Sleeper Cell]

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed (for lack of a better word) is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms: greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind, and greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.

• Michael Douglas as Gordon Gekko in the film, Wall Street, directed by Oliver Stone, screnplay by Stanley Weiser.
  

Isn’t trying to gain insights into capitalism from an Oliver Stone movie kind of like watching “The Godmakers” to learn about Mormonism?

Re: Oliver Stone, et al., I am reminded of the classic “Lil Abner“ quote: “a body can sure make lots of money singing songs against poverty.”

[Stone holm]

Really?????? What happens in Europe if you don't pay your taxes?

Same as here. And if you don't pay your tithing you don't go to the Temple, point being?

[Sleeper Cell]

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of confusion over the difference between Marxist Communism as practiced after the overthrow of the aristocracy. In Russia as it eventually morphed into something truly despicable under Stalin, and democratic socialism.

Solzhenitsyn would strongly disagree. He repeatedly pointed out that Marxist Communism as practiced under Lenin was something truly despicable from the beginning. (e.g., Gulag, pt 3, p 9-25).

The democratic socialism arose as those of the poorer classes who did the majority of the bleeding in WWII demanded an economic system that treated everyone with dignity. It did not involve communally owned property or even state owned industry, and certainly was not atheistic. But once you launch a crusade, its hard to get it to stop. The real response is that in fact with the U of O's stewardships and turning over of surpluses to the Bishops it was closer to communism, than democratic socialism which is more capitalistic. The odd thing now is the ardent capitalists are taking advantage of a police state labor force in a communist country, so you don't hear much about the civil rights abuses of communism anymore.

Wasn’t the majority of the bleeding in WW II done by the Russians, the Germans and the eastern Europeans? Neither democratic socialism (nor democratic anything else) arose in any of these countries (other than W. Germany) until the Reagan/Bush era.

BTW, the US did the majority of the bleeding compared to its Western European allies, yet the US rejected democratic socialism.

Just as democratic socialism should never be compared to Marxist communism, “democratic capitalism“ should never be compared to “police state capitalism.”

I agree that there is a fundamental tension between democratic capitalism and the united order/law of consecration. Can you agree that there is also a fundamental tension between democratic socialism and the united order/law of consecration?