Popular Post Nevo Posted June 30, 2013 Popular Post Posted June 30, 2013 (edited) As Kevin Christensen noted in another thread, "the LDS [priesthood] ban was put in place . . . based on some odd goings on in Winter Quarters."1 Recent scholarly discussion has focused on the person of William McCary as playing a pivotal role in the origin of the ban.McCary was, by all accounts, a strange fellow. As Connell O'Donovan writes, McCary was "a half-African, half-Indian Mormon musician" who entertained the Saints at Winter Quarters in February and March 1847. "An accomplished ventriloquist, McCary was expelled from Winter Quarters for dressing as an Indian, claiming to be Adam 'the ancient of days,' and then throwing his voice to announce that 'God spake unto him and called him Thomas.'"2 On February 26, Wilford Woodruff recorded in his journal: "we recieved a visit from A man from New orleans formally. He professed to be an Indian. Most of persons believed him to be a descendant of Ham. Br Hyde Baptized him in Nauvoo. He was an eccentric character. He was the most perfect natural musician I ever saw on a flute fife, sauce pan, ratler, whistle &c. . . . His name was Wm Carey."3 A month later, Woodruff recorded another encounter with McCary: "After this I met with the quorum of the Twelve And Wm McCary the Coolurd man. Met with them & showed his body to the company to see if he had not a rib gone &c."4The following account of the meeting appears in the latest issue of the Journal of Mormon History:[McCary's] racial status remained shrouded in mystery. Nelson Whipple thought him to be a 'mulatto or quarterrun [quadroon].' The camp clerk, Robert Campbell, thought him to be a 'Chocktaw Indian.' Lorenzo Brown described him as a 'half breed Indian negro.' On March 26, 1847, the Quorum of the Twelve met with McCary to help him determine his racial status. 'We were all white once,' he believed, so he wondered: 'why [h]av[e] I the stain now.' McCary knew what the Saints were saying about them: 'There go the old n——r & his White Wife.' McCary feared that fellow Mormons would 'get up a mob to drive me out of the city.' Hamon Cutler had publicly threatened to kill McCary for making alleged sexual advances to Cutler’s daughter. McCary appealed to the Twelve. 'I want to understand, whe[the]r I am protected if I do right.'The minutes record McCary’s anguish and confusion over his racial status. McCary arranged for Dr. John Robinson to examine him in the presence of the quorum, hoping it would tell him whether he was Choctaw or black. Nineteenth-century folk wisdom held that black men had an extra rib that (inexplicably) endowed them with natural athletic ability. If the doctor could determine his race, 'then I will tell you what God sent me here for.' . . . Dr. Robinson carefully examined McCary’s ribs and did not 'discover any thing novel.' McCary quickly corrected the doctor: 'Mine is here,' he said, then he launched a clever defense of polygamy. Since Lucy, as his wife, was his 'odd rib,' his 'extra rib' would justify taking plural wives. Brigham corrected him: 'Your body is not what is your mission.'During the course of the hearing, McCary apparently abandoned claims to be Choctaw and freely embraced his status as a black: 'I’ve come here & given myself to be your servant. . . . If I am a darky, I want to serve God.' Brigham responded with a resounding 'Amen.' McCary begged to be seen as a 'common brother' even though he was 'a little shade darker.'Brigham Young: We don’t care about the color.McCary: Do I hear that from all?All: Aye.Heber C. Kimball: Don’t you feel a good spirit here William?McCary then entertained the men with a tune on his 'little thirty six cents flute,' casually chatted in Dutch with one of the men, and poked fun at American colloquialisms. Brigham enjoined him to ignore the name-calling: 'Shew by your actions that you don’t care for what they say—all we do is to serve the Lord with all our hearts.' Brigham directed his fellow apostles to donate $12.50 each to assist McCary in purchasing an outfit for the trek westward. The atmosphere was friendly and reassuring. Young promised McCary that he need not be concerned over having African ancestry: 'It’s nothing to do with blood for of one blood has God made all flesh.' Believing that repentance would literally whiten one’s countenance, Young maintained that the Saints had only to 'repent & regain what we have lost,' presumably referring to man’s luminescent glory from Edenic times. Young pointed to a black priesthood holder as an exemplar: 'We have one of the best Elders an African in Lowell—a barber.' Young was referring to Walker Lewis, a black Latter-day Saint whom William Smith, then an apostle in good standing, had ordained in 1843–44.5Brigham Young's statements in this meeting provide a tantalizing glimpse of what could have been (in a better world) a rationale for continuing the practice of ordaining blacks to the priesthood:"Your body is not what is your mission.""It's nothing to do with the blood for of one blood has God made all flesh""We have one of our best Elders[,] an African...""We don't care about the color.""Shew by your actions that you don’t care for what they say."In any case, Brigham Young's attitude towards black people seems to have been more nuanced than I had given him credit for.______________________________________________________1 http://www.mormondia...entry12092700652 Connell O'Donovan, "The Mormon Priesthood Ban and Elder Q. Walker Lewis: 'An Example for His More Whiter Brethren to Follow,' John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 26 (2006): 81. McCary also later had himself sealed to several white Mormon women in Springville, Iowa, in the spring or fall of 1847.3 Wilford Woodruff Journal, 26 February 1847, LDS Church Archives (accessed on New Mormon Studies CD-ROM, 2009 Edition).4 Wilford Woodruff Journal, 26 March 1847, LDS Church Archives (accessed on New Mormon Studies CD-ROM, 2009 Edition).5 Russell W. Stevenson, "'A Negro Preacher': The Worlds of Elijah Ables," Journal of Mormon History 39, no. 2 (2013): 223-226. See the original transcript of the meeting here: page 1, page 2, page 3. Edited July 1, 2013 by Nevo 5
Questing Beast Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 Like polygamy, if continued, ordaining "blacks" would have broken up the Church over the racism issue. I believe that B. Young would have personally been alright with black priesthood holders, but too many of the Saints were bigoted to a great degree, and so the time was not then to treat all men as "one blood"....
canard78 Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 Like polygamy, if continued, ordaining "blacks" would have broken up the Church over the racism issue. I believe that B. Young would have personally been alright with black priesthood holders, but too many of the Saints were bigoted to a great degree, and so the time was not then to treat all men as "one blood"....Why was that not manifest when Joseph was prophet?Why was that not manifest among the other splinters post 1844?And why did it 'stick' for 130 years? Unfortunately ongoing prejudice among at least some of the 15 may be the key issue. But thanks Nevo, interesting quotes. It gives useful context. It's a shame that BY could not convince the rest of his peers that "we do not care about color," if that was really his perspective.
canard78 Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 (edited) Delete duplicate Edited July 1, 2013 by canard78
Stone holm Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 Like polygamy, if continued, ordaining "blacks" would have broken up the Church over the racism issue. I believe that B. Young would have personally been alright with black priesthood holders, but too many of the Saints were bigoted to a great degree, and so the time was not then to treat all men as "one blood"....For once I agree with the beast
Duncan Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 I have a comment but in saying so would probably get me the chop! and I don't want that so
Kenngo1969 Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 (edited) Why was that not manifest when Joseph was prophet?...Joseph ordained Elijah Abel, a black man, to the priesthood. See here, and scroll down to 1836 in the timeline. http://www.blacklds.org/history Edited July 1, 2013 by Kenngo1969
Kenngo1969 Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 I have a comment but in saying so would probably get me the chop! and I don't want that soYou mean, you can get banned here merely for saying you have a comment, even if you don't disclose the substance of the comment? Man, the mods here sure are sensitive! (Sorry; couldn't resist! Carry on!)
Nevo Posted July 1, 2013 Author Posted July 1, 2013 (edited) Like polygamy, if continued, ordaining "blacks" would have broken up the Church over the racism issue. I believe that B. Young would have personally been alright with black priesthood holders, but too many of the Saints were bigoted to a great degree, and so the time was not then to treat all men as "one blood"....You may be right. John Turner wrote in his recent biography of Brigham Young that "given the racial context of the mid-nineteenth-century United States and the attitudes of other Mormon leaders, it makes little sense to lay the entire blame for the church's discriminatory policies at the feet of Brigham Young. Only a leader with an ardent commitment to racial egalitarianism, which Young did not possess, would have maintained the church's early relative openness to black Americans" (Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 229).As noted earlier, William McCary did feel discriminated against by his fellow Saints. Part of the reason he was meeting with the Twelve was to ask for their protection. The Twelve, for their part, treated McCary with kindness and compassion on that occasion (though perhaps without a full knowledge of his history). This is all the more remarkable since McCary was married to a white woman. Apostle Orson Hyde not only baptized McCary in Nauvoo in 1846 but also married him to Lucy Stanton, "daughter of Daniel Stanton, formerly a high counselor in Daviess County, Missouri, and a stake president in Quincy, Illinois" (see Stevenson, "A Negro Preacher," 222). Brigham Young was certainly aware of McCary's interracial marriage because Lucy accompanied him to the meeting. Yet, writes Turner, Young "apparently raised no objection" (Turner, 221). This is noteworthy given Brigham Young's later statements on the subject.McCary fell out of the good graces of the leadership a few weeks after the 26 March meeting. Before McCary's move to Far West he had lived in Cincinnati "where he began 'proclaiming himself to be Jesus Christ' while wearing 'Indian garb.' He displayed 'scars and wounds received on the cross,' and took credit for 'caus[ing] the whirlwind which destroyed Natchez,' his Mississippi home town, in May 1840. . . . He was allegedly forced out of the city for promoting polygamy" (see Stevenson, 223). McCary apparently returned to his old ways in Far West. Soon the Springville branch president was complaining that McCary was practicing polygamy with local women: “He had a number of women sealed to him. . . he had a home in which this ordinance was performed. His wife, Lucy Stanton was in the room at the time of the performance, no others were admitted. The form of the sealing was for the women to bed with him, in the daytime as I am informed three different times by which they were sealed to the fullest extent" (quoted in Stevenson, 227-228).Whatever the exact nature of McCary's activities, by April 25, Parley P. Pratt was castigating the members at Winter Quarters for allowing themselves to be led astray by a "black man who has got the blood of Ham in him which linege was cursed as regards the priesthood" (quoted in Stevenson, 228). This theme was of course picked up by Brigham Young and others in subsequent years.Yet as late as December 1847, responding to a branch president's query "if [it] is the order of God or tolerated in this Church, i.e., to ordain Negroes to the Priesthood, and allow amalgamation," Young responded: "If a black man & white woman come to you & demand baptism can you deny them? the law is their seed shall not be amalgamated . . . but if they will be Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake they may have a place in the Temple" (quoted in Turner, 222). Had Young stuck with this position, I think he probably could have persuaded the Church to follow. Placing black men in positions of authority over whites was probably never going to fly, but it seems to me that it would still have been possible to ordain blacks without necessarily making them bishops.But as it happens, Brigham Young ended up taking a hardline stance that excluded black men from priesthood ordination, and black men and women from a place in the temple. Not only that, but as Turner points out "Young's adamant contention that such discrimination rested upon 'eternal principles' fostered a policy of exclusion that his successors saw little choice but to perpetuate" (Turner, 229).. Edited July 1, 2013 by Nevo
canard78 Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 Joseph ordained Elijah Abel, a black man, to the priesthood. See here, and scroll down to 1836 in the timeline. http://www.blacklds.org/historyI know. That's exactly my point. There was no huge rebellion or exodus after his ordination. People sometimes excuse the ban as it met the needs of "the weakest" (most prejudiced) of the saints. If that's the case, where were the mass protestations/resignations in 1832 when Abel was ordained. Where were the complaints when Phelps published his anti-slavery statement in 1833 or Joseph in 1836 (there was a mob that attacked his printing press in 33, opposition from without but not from within)?Where was the opposition to the other black ordinations in the 1830s and 1840s?Where were the voices against a non-discriminatory temple Kirkland policy?If Joseph had continued as prophet I find it highly unlikely that the ban would have ever happened at all. A man who says that slavery makes "my blood boil" probably wouldn't have allowed it to continue as it did, shamefully, in Utah. I also doubt he would have worried about the sensitivities of prejudiced members. If it meant the work progressed a little slower or we had more black members and few slave owners in our early membership, then surely that would have been something to celebrate. It's not as is, 170 years on, with 0.05% of the world as Mormons, the concessions to the early racist members has made a difference. 1
canard78 Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 I think you're right about that. As the First Presidency wrote to a member in 1947, "From the days of the Prophet Joseph until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel" (First Presidency letter to Lowry Nelson, 17 July 1947, copy at Brigham Young University Library, quoted in Lester Bush, "Mormonism's Negro Doctrine: An Historical Overview," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 8, no. 1 [1973]: 284). I am not sure how readily the Lord can reverse a "doctrine" that no Church leader questions.Even Elder Stapely's letter in 1964 shows that he (and perhaps others) were not actively seeking a resolution to the issue. He says: "The position of the church cannot change until The Lord changes it himself." He discourages Senator Romney from actively seeking a resolution almost at pain of death. The implication that 3 presidents and a friend all met a sticky end for the black campaigning is among the most unpleasant things I've read from an Apostle. It leaves very little doubt that prejudice prevented the ban being lifted earlier. The fact he cites Joseph Smith of all people in defence of his position is almost tragic. It seems to me that there's a fundamental tension between the notion that the prophet is the Lord's mouthpiece on earth and will never lead the Church astray and the idea of continuing revelation. Continuing revelation is only possible if the Church is doing or believing at least some things incorrectly or incompletely at any given moment. For example, when Joseph Smith revealed that hell fire didn't actually exist he contradicted the teachings of numerous biblical and Book of Mormon prophets and even Jesus himself. All of these previous authorities, though inspired, apparently taught incorrect/incomplete doctrine regarding future punishment (at least as it has been transmitted to us through the scriptures).Grant Underwood treats this subject at the end of an excellent article on the development of LDS soteriology:D&C 19:7 makes the point that 'eternal punishment' had always been used as a phrase or concept because it was "more express" up to that point. An admission of teaching literally that which was actually only ever figurative.I guess we can trust that the priesthood ban was part of the "adding, subtracting, and refining process" of a mysterious Providence..I'm afraid I don't trust that Providence had anything to do with it at all. 2
Stone holm Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 I know. That's exactly my point. There was no huge rebellion or exodus after his ordination. People sometimes excuse the ban as it met the needs of "the weakest" (most prejudiced) of the saints. If that's the case, where were the mass protestations/resignations in 1832 when Abel was ordained. Where were the complaints when Phelps published his anti-slavery statement in 1833 or Joseph in 1836 (there was a mob that attacked his printing press in 33, opposition from without but not from within)?Where was the opposition to the other black ordinations in the 1830s and 1840s?Where were the voices against a non-discriminatory temple Kirkland policy?If Joseph had continued as prophet I find it highly unlikely that the ban would have ever happened at all. A man who says that slavery makes "my blood boil" probably wouldn't have allowed it to continue as it did, shamefully, in Utah. I also doubt he would have worried about the sensitivities of prejudiced members. If it meant the work progressed a little slower or we had more black members and few slave owners in our early membership, then surely that would have been something to celebrate. It's not as is, 170 years on, with 0.05% of the world as Mormons, the concessions to the early racist members has made a difference.I don't know both Jefferson and Madison knew slavery was wrong but couldn't seem to find a way to let loose of it. Having grown up in one of the most racist states in the Midwest, I think you may not understand how much attitudes have changed since the cultural revolutions of the 60s.
Kenngo1969 Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 ...If Joseph had continued as prophet I find it highly unlikely that the ban would have ever happened at all. ... Then how do you explain the fact that Brigham Young ordained Walker Lewis?
Stone holm Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 Then how do you explain the fact that Brigham Young ordained Walker Lewis?There was increased concern about "amalgamation" at least one of the later Prophets expressed his paranoia about "amalgamation", and in fact I think the fact that white women of my generation began crossing the marital taboo line, including the mother of our current POTUS, finally started breaking down the racial phobias as more and more people had nieces and nephews, grandchildren and cousins who were of mixed race. Even as they extended the Priesthood, there was lingering concerns about amalgamation that it somehow heralded the end of times or something, but the Church was ready, possibly more ready than some of its leaders, to accept the cultural change in 1978. They were not ready, however, before the cultural revolutions of the 1960's.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 Like polygamy, if continued, ordaining "blacks" would have broken up the Church over the racism issue. I believe that B. Young would have personally been alright with black priesthood holders, but too many of the Saints were bigoted to a great degree, and so the time was not then to treat all men as "one blood"....The other Branches of the church formed after the martyrdom ordained blacks and never had any issue with racism. So, if you are correct, the Utah church was full of a bunch of racists that were not had in the other churches.
Alan Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 The other Branches of the church formed after the martyrdom ordained blacks and never had any issue with racism. This is not entirely true.The RLDS had an issue and JSIII iproduced a revelation advising that great care should be exercised when ordaining Blacks. It also intimates that blacks should minister to blacks (as opposed to whites).
Questing Beast Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 ...with 0.05% of the world as Mormons,...Sorry for drawing attention off topic over this, but my bad math sense cannot let this go. I keep seeing various assertions about what percentage of world population Mormons are. I think the actual number is more like .002% (15 million out of 7 billion). Do I have that right?...
Questing Beast Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 The other Branches of the church formed after the martyrdom ordained blacks and never had any issue with racism. So, if you are correct, the Utah church was full of a bunch of racists that were not had in the other churches.That is a "colored" pov. Did any of these "other branches of the church" appoint black men to leadership, that to say "general authority" positions? If so I am unaware of them. A few "ordained" black men does not show "never had any issue with racism"....
Kenngo1969 Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 There was increased concern about "amalgamation" at least one of the later Prophets expressed his paranoia about "amalgamation", and in fact I think the fact that white women of my generation began crossing the marital taboo line, including the mother of our current POTUS, finally started breaking down the racial phobias as more and more people had nieces and nephews, grandchildren and cousins who were of mixed race. Even as they extended the Priesthood, there was lingering concerns about amalgamation that it somehow heralded the end of times or something, but the Church was ready, possibly more ready than some of its leaders, to accept the cultural change in 1978. They were not ready, however, before the cultural revolutions of the 1960's.So, just to be clear, are you saying that concern about "amalgamation" increased following Brigham Young's ordination of Walker Lewis?
Whiskeypete Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 Sorry for drawing attention off topic over this, but my bad math sense cannot let this go. I keep seeing various assertions about what percentage of world population Mormons are. I think the actual number is more like .002% (15 million out of 7 billion). Do I have that right?...15,000,000 / 7,000,000,000,000 = 0.00214 which is 0.214% or about 1/5th of one percent
Questing Beast Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 (edited) 15,000,000 / 7,000,000,000,000 = 0.00214 which is 0.214% or about 1/5th of one percentAch! I keep forgetting to move the decimal two places to the right to turn the decimal into a percentage. Thanks! Still, a whole lot less than .5% of world population. Let's not get hasty ...(edit to add: "0.05%" is NOT .5%. It looks to my feeble numeric "intuition" that 0.05% = .2%, but at this point I have no clue... help....) Edited July 1, 2013 by Questing Beast
Alan Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 (edited) Post deleted - mistake Edited July 1, 2013 by Alan
Alan Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 That is a "colored" pov. Did any of these "other branches of the church" appoint black men to leadership, that to say "general authority" positions? If so I am unaware of them. A few "ordained" black men does not show "never had any issue with racism"....You're right.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 (edited) That is a "colored" pov. Did any of these "other branches of the church" appoint black men to leadership, that to say "general authority" positions? If so I am unaware of them. A few "ordained" black men does not show "never had any issue with racism"....Glad you asked... from the wiki entry for the Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)The Church of Jesus Christ has advocated full racial integration throughout all aspects of the church since its organization in 1862. While America disputed over civil liberties and racial segregation, the church claimed their message was for all races.[27] In 1905, the church suspended an elder for opposing the full integration of all races.[12]Historian Dale Morgan wrote in 1949: "An interesting feature of the Church's doctrine is that it discriminates in no way against ... members of other racial groups, who are fully admitted to all the privileges of the priesthood. It has taken a strong stand for human rights, and was, for example, uncompromisingly against the Ku Klux Klan during that organization's period of ascendancy after the First World War."[28]At a time when racial segregation or discrimination was commonplace in most institutions throughout America, two of the most prominent leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ were African American. Apostle John Penn, member of the Quorum of Twelve from 1910 to 1955, conducted missionary work with many Italian Americans, and was often referred to as "The Italian's Doctor".[12] Matthew Miller, an evangelist ordained in 1937, traveled throughout Canada establishing missions with Native AmericansPS... One of their current Apostles, James Crudup, is black. Edited July 1, 2013 by BookofMormonLuvr
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