Calm Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 Have you read the protests that Harold B. Lee raised against building the Temple in Washington, DC? CFR please.
canard78 Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 Oh I agree on the prejudice part. And I don't want you to think that I am saying The Lord approved of the racism anymore than He approved of the drinking and smoking that continued until the W of W became a commandment. But, I think that He knew that the Blacks would not get treated well. I travelled to Salt Lake City in 1977. While we were there we attended a Stake Conference near Temple Square. The Stake President made some of the most bigoted statements in reference to the Native Americans that I have heard in my life over the pulpit. I was aghast. The next year they extended the Priesthood to the Brethern of African descent. I am thinking we were barely ready for it even then. My entire youth was spent amongst racists in Indiana. It is still prevalent there. But, I have never seen a religious group which had had our practices so readily and willingly change directions as did the Saints when the word came down from on high. I think The Lord had prepared the nation and the nation had prepared the Saints to make the change without contention. But a large part of a generation had to die off first.And if that's the sort of prejudice and limitations our church is built on, one wonders what other minority groups are being limited in their opportunities because "a generation has to die off first."The idea that the black members were being denied the priesthood and temple blessings because of the bigotry of white Mormons (even into the 1960s) makes me feel sick. How can we have confidence in leaders who supported a policy (taught as doctrine) built on the basis of prejudice?It appears their paradigm and prejudice takes precedence over seeking the will of God. Don't we believe in a God who speaks truth through his prophets even if it goes against the received wisdom of the day instead of withholding truth to accomdate bigotry and error?Why not take the same approach today? 1
Stone holm Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 CFR please.David O McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism
Stone holm Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 And if that's the sort of prejudice and limitations our church is built on, one wonders what other minority groups are being limited in their opportunities because "a generation has to die off first."The idea that the black members were being denied the priesthood and temple blessings because of the bigotry of white Mormons (even into the 1960s) makes me feel sick. How can we have confidence in leaders who supported a policy (taught as doctrine) built on the basis of prejudice?It appears their paradigm and prejudice takes precedence over seeking the will of God. Don't we believe in a God who speaks truth through his prophets even if it goes against the received wisdom of the day instead of withholding truth to accomdate bigotry and error?Why not take the same approach today?You have something particular in mind? Like women and the Priesthood, maybe. SSM , I don't think so. Remember the Africans had been promised the priesthood eventually, and there were some of the original Apostles who resisted the idea of Gentiles.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 You have something particular in mind? Like women and the Priesthood, maybe. SSM , I don't think so. Remember the Africans had been promised the priesthood eventually, and there were some of the original Apostles who resisted the idea of Gentiles.The fact that apparently not a single Black American is qualified for any GA position is troublesome. (Is there even one black American Seventy? In any of the Quorums?)
omni Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 The fact that apparently not a single Black American is qualified for any GA position is troublesome. (Is there even one black American Seventy? In any of the Quorums?)Likewise, the idea that God has never called a non white as an apostle is equally troublesome. 1
Stone holm Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 Likewise, the idea that God has never called a non white as an apostle is equally troublesome.Well as I recall he called one non white prophet, I believe his name was Samuel. I seem to recall a lot of arrows flying at him.
Stone holm Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 JBS?John Birch Society, an ultra right wing Organization favoured by ETB. It was formed in Indiana and was highly paranoid anti communist group that supported McCarthy and preached that Martin Luther King, Jr and Pres Kennedy were closet communists.
emarkp Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 John Birch Society, an ultra right wing Organization favoured by ETB.Are you sure it wasn't super-duper right wing? sigh.
canard78 Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 John Birch Society, an ultra right wing Organization favoured by ETB. It was formed in Indiana and was highly paranoid anti communist group that supported McCarthy and preached that Martin Luther King, Jr and Pres Kennedy were closet communists.That's very useful. I'd wondered about this speech: http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=85Puts it into context. (Red light: I'm not going to discuss this article on this thread... Politics usually reaches a quick thread lock.Mods, if even this is too much just say and I'll delete it rather than get the thread locked).
Stone holm Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 Likewise, the idea that God has never called a non white as an apostle is equally troublesome.Troublesome possibly, but understandable given the process which brings candidates up to the radar screen for consideration.
omni Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but if you look at most of the past apostles in the.modern church they are all white, almost all American, and many were related or well connected. President Utchdorf is a noted exception to this.
volgadon Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but if you look at most of the past apostles in the.modern church they are all white, almost all American, and many were related or well connected. President Utchdorf is a noted exception to this.And Widstoe, Penrose, Lund, Talmage, Taylor, and others.
Stone holm Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but if you look at most of the past apostles in the.modern church they are all white, almost all American, and many were related or well connected. President Utchdorf is a noted exception to this.Well once you get past the ones related to early pioneers or the Smith family, there is a General Authority track which usually goes Stake President, Mission President, General Authority -- but can go near celebrity status in profession or business then General Authority and also significant educational administrator, Church affilitated college president, then General Authority. Given Western culture it may take awhile before many non-whites get far enough along that track to make General Authority, although one would have expected at least a few more Hispanic and Native American candidates having reached that level. I remember eating lunch with the Navaho, I think his name was Elder Lee, while he was a 70 and before he got bounced during Pres. Benson's tenure. The cultural barrier may just be too great in some cases.
USU78 Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 Well once you get past the ones related to early pioneers or the Smith family, there is a General Authority track which usually goes Stake President, Mission President, General Authority -- but can go near celebrity status in profession or business then General Authority and also significant educational administrator, Church affilitated college president, then General Authority. Given Western culture it may take awhile before many non-whites get far enough along that track to make General Authority, although one would have expected at least a few more Hispanic and Native American candidates having reached that level. I remember eating lunch with the Navaho, I think his name was Elder Lee, while he was a 70 and before he got bounced during Pres. Benson's tenure. The cultural barrier may just be too great in some cases.You imply that somehow former Elder Lee's excommunication was not warranted. Why do you do this? 1
Stone holm Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 You imply that somehow former Elder Lee's excommunication was not warranted. Why do you do this?Didn't imply one thing or the other. He had a disagreement with Pres. Benson over the switch in attention from Native American programs to Internationalization . The official reason for getting bounced was something about family issues. I think he might have been a not very easy person for some to deal with, very quiet in person. I remember him because I had promised my eldest who was like a first grader or something the opportunity to meet him and had completely forgotten, but he had this very, very sad face and was near tears when we went to leave and asked him why and my wife reminded me. So I took him back through the exited crowds until we found him in the HC room and he graciously shook my sons hand.
Calm Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 The official reason for getting bounced was something about family issues. On September 1, 1989, the Church announced that Lee had been excommunicated for "apostasy and other conduct unbecoming a member of the Church."[4http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_P._Lee
USU78 Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 Didn't imply one thing or the other. He had a disagreement with Pres. Benson over the switch in attention from Native American programs to Internationalization . The official reason for getting bounced was something about family issues. I think he might have been a not very easy person for some to deal with, very quiet in person. I remember him because I had promised my eldest who was like a first grader or something the opportunity to meet him and had completely forgotten, but he had this very, very sad face and was near tears when we went to leave and asked him why and my wife reminded me. So I took him back through the exited crowds until we found him in the HC room and he graciously shook my sons hand.He was excommunicated after pleading guilty to child abuse.His status was never at issue prior to the events coming to light.You are either mis-stating things or are ignorant of these things.
Stone holm Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 He was excommunicated after pleading guilty to child abuse.His status was never at issue prior to the events coming to light.You are either mis-stating things or are ignorant of these things.Zing! You got me!
USU78 Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 Zing! You got me!So where do we go from here? You are plainly either making things up or ignoring truth . . . unless there's a third option that won't come to mind just now. Just what are we to do with you, SH?
BookofMormonLuvr Posted July 3, 2013 Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) So where do we go from here? You are plainly either making things up or ignoring truth . . . unless there's a third option that won't come to mind just now. Just what are we to do with you, SH?I think it would behoove us all to excuse SH's lak of information on Lee's excommunication. None of us are in full possession of the facts on every topic. Edited July 3, 2013 by BookofMormonLuvr
Stone holm Posted July 3, 2013 Posted July 3, 2013 And Widstoe, Penrose, Lund, Talmage, Taylor, and others.Taylor, why was Taylor in your list? He was there early on, wounded at the Jail in Carthage?
volgadon Posted July 3, 2013 Posted July 3, 2013 Taylor, why was Taylor in your list? He was there early on, wounded at the Jail in Carthage?Where was he born?
Stone holm Posted July 3, 2013 Posted July 3, 2013 Where was he born?I confess, don't know. I do know that reputedly he and Brigham Young did not have personalities which mixed well.
volgadon Posted July 3, 2013 Posted July 3, 2013 I confess, don't know. I do know that reputedly he and Brigham Young did not have personalities which mixed well.https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/06/young-john-taylor?lang=eng
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