Trouble In Africa: Fb Conversation With Prospective Afican Missionary

[ERayR]

That's the problem, people feel they put too much faith in an institution run by men and not in God, atleast I did.

I feel cheated out of a belief system I'd have given my life for, even made promises to give everything for the institution. The institution may not have lied outright but the sin of omission could be close to it.

I don't think I am all that special but I have never had a real crisis of faith. That spiritual affirmation I received from the Holy Ghost keeps getting in the way of any good crisis. I really do see the irrelevancy of these things when measured against that. I have written before of my warehouse 13, waiting for more info place. That is the way I work. Is it relevant measured against that Holy Spirit affirmation? If not it goes to warehouse 13. Like warehouse 13 on TV there is some fairly dangerous things on the shelves.

It all comes down to not putting your faith in an institution but in your revelation that affirmed the Book of Mormon and the restitution of the Gospel and the ordinances of salvation.

Edited June 21, 2013 by ERayR

[Johnnie Cake]

Thank you for verifying that you are a fraud and a transparent and not very bright one. If the mods want to ding me again for saying so so be it. That conversation did not take place between two real people. It is a perfect "compassionate" Antimormon fantasy. Please stop validating this weirdo by believing him.

"Lord, we thank thee for this Johnnie Cake and ask thee to send us something better so we can toss this one out."

I would kindly ask the moderators not to kick Nehor from this thread...but I would also ask him/her to engage the issues posed by my OP.

What exactly have I done/said that would bring such ire towards me? Ive been honest and forthright and have shared my FB convo here in an effort to help the disaffected and doubters. They alone are my concern.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Johnnie Cake

[ERayR]

I would kindly ask the moderators not to kick Nehor from this thread...but I would also ask him/her to engage the issues posed by my OP.

What exactly have I done/said that would bring such ire towards me? Ive been honest and forthright and have shared my FB convo here in an effort to help the disaffected and doubters. They alone are my concern.

And there are those who condemn Paul Dunn. Go figure.

[Johnnie Cake]

And there are those who condemn Paul Dunn. Go figure.

Don't know what u mean by that exactly ERayR....it that a slur

[The Nehor]

I would kindly ask the moderators not to kick Nehor from this thread...but I would also ask him/her to engage the issues posed by my OP.

What exactly have I done/said that would bring such ire towards me? Ive been honest and forthright and have shared my FB convo here in an effort to help the disaffected and doubters. They alone are my concern.

Alright buddy, let's play. The issues in the OP:

You can't convince me the kid is African unless he was raised in the United States. He writes perfect colloquial American English. I would eve take a stab at Midwest American but not so sure on that. That would not happen to be where you are from is it? Not a chance unless he is an internet junkie who only talks to Americans. You can often tell this stuff even with the British and Aussies because of how they use verbiage. South Africans and other English-speaking Africans are even further removed. I am a writer and a linguist. You are not good at this.

The time jumps. Why were there such long pauses in the beginning of the conversation?

The timestamps....why do they jump around and some have a timestamp and some do not? At first you could believe there is only one in a new minute but some repeat. Then there is the large chunk at the beginning that would have had to take place within a minute. You both would have to type and think very fast to get that back and forth in that quickly.

I am supposed to believe a young adult male voluntarily watched a Lifetime movie?

He buys everything you say almost without question. Oh, he bewails it a little bit so you convey the emotional effect and we are meant to feel bad but he does not mention fact checking.

He expects you to throw the Book of Mormon under the bus. Why?

He is supposedly ignorant of church history but never liked Brigham Young? On what basis if he is so naive? Perhaps you projected too much into your character here?

The spacing is off. If you cut and pasted from a chatlog I do not see that happening either.

He is a perfect strawman. You pick someone from a disadvantaged area of the globe as your victim. In your first thread he was a black African. why the specificity in a way that is usually offensive here and there? He knows just enough to play along with your script but none of the details. His hurt is perfectly timed and you try to comfort him so you are the good guy.

Do you routinely talk to young men of about 19? Why is he conversing with an apostate? Why does he seem to trust you so much?

Add on that his whole thing reads like a "How to Tell Mormons the Truth about their Religion" dialogue pamphlet passed out by anti ministries complete with the completely conforming strawman stooge and the whole thing is patently ridiculous.

You are a liar and a fraud and not a very good one. You really need to work on this if you want to pull it off. Hopefully these tips will help. Good luck.

[Kenngo1969]

Miami up 6. :-(

Eh, what? You're not a Miami fan? OK. You can't be all bad!

[Johnnie Cake]

Alright buddy, let's play. The issues in the OP:

You can't convince me the kid is African unless he was raised in the United States. He writes perfect colloquial American English. I would eve take a stab at Midwest American but not so sure on that. That would not happen to be where you are from is it? Not a chance unless he is an internet junkie who only talks to Americans. You can often tell this stuff even with the British and Aussies because of how they use verbiage. South Africans and other English-speaking Africans are even further removed. I am a writer and a linguist. You are not good at this.

The time jumps. Why were there such long pauses in the beginning of the conversation?

The timestamps....why do they jump around and some have a timestamp and some do not? At first you could believe there is only one in a new minute but some repeat. Then there is the large chunk at the beginning that would have had to take place within a minute. You both would have to type and think very fast to get that back and forth in that quickly.

I am supposed to believe a young adult male voluntarily watched a Lifetime movie?

He buys everything you say almost without question. Oh, he bewails it a little bit so you convey the emotional effect and we are meant to feel bad but he does not mention fact checking.

He expects you to throw the Book of Mormon under the bus. Why?

He is supposedly ignorant of church history but never liked Brigham Young? On what basis if he is so naive? Perhaps you projected too much into your character here?

The spacing is off. If you cut and pasted from a chatlog I do not see that happening either.

He is a perfect strawman. You pick someone from a disadvantaged area of the globe as your victim. In your first thread he was a black African. why the specificity in a way that is usually offensive here and there? He knows just enough to play along with your script but none of the details. His hurt is perfectly timed and you try to comfort him so you are the good guy.

Do you routinely talk to young men of about 19? Why is he conversing with an apostate? Why does he seem to trust you so much?

Add on that his whole thing reads like a "How to Tell Mormons the Truth about their Religion" dialogue pamphlet passed out by anti ministries complete with the completely conforming strawman stooge and the whole thing is patently ridiculous.

You are a liar and a fraud and not a very good one. You really need to work on this if you want to pull it off. Hopefully these tips will help. Good luck.

Well you've raised several issues...most of them based on speculative conclusions you've made to confirm your bias'. But I would like to address each one and will do so first thing in the morning when I'm on my laptop rather than my iPad. As a skeptic myself I can appreciate your skepticism but honestly....All I can do if likewise give my answers to ure observations...and while I get that they may not satisfy you...I will answer as honestly as I can

I'm sorry you don't find me trustworthy...and think me a liar and a fraud but I assure you that were I the creature you've imagined I am..having made up a fake conversation...I would have torn into church claims in a much more harsh manner...but whatever...I'll make an honest attempt to address your observations

[ERayR]

Don't know what u mean by that exactly ERayR....it that a slur

Depends on who you ask. I kind of liked Paul Dunn. His stories were interesting even if embellished.

[Calm]

Johnnie Cake, how do you know the poster is real and not putting you on?

[Biz]

Thank you for verifying that you are a fraud and a transparent and not very bright one. If the mods want to ding me again for saying so so be it. That conversation did not take place between two real people. It is a perfect "compassionate" Antimormon fantasy. Please stop validating this weirdo by believing him.

"Lord, we thank thee for this Johnnie Cake and ask thee to send us something better so we can toss this one out."

Nehor,

Well then, you might as well just substitute Biz for the fellow in Africa. My experience was not unlike his. Since my experience, I have seen many others have the same train hit them that hit me when I found out Joseph Smith had more than one wife.

[ERayR]

Nehor,

Well then, you might as well just substitute Biz for the fellow in Africa. My experience was not unlike his. Since my experience, I have seen many others have the same train hit them that hit me when I found out Joseph Smith had more than one wife.

And that trumped the revelation you received that the Book of Mormon is true, why?

[Biz]

And that trumped the revelation you received that the Book of Mormon is true, why?

I was unaware that the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon was at issue in this thread?

[Johnnie Cake]

Depends on who you ask. I kind of liked Paul Dunn. His stories were interesting even if embellished.

So you're skeptical of my conversation claim as well...fair enough you've never been one of my fans...not unexpected...so I'm sure you'll apologize if convinced I'm telling the truth...

I'm an admitted non believer...that's no secret...by what exactly is supposed to be my motivation for perpetrating this fraud? Oh yeah I'm a evil, anti Mormon SOB at least that where this forum has filed me...guess it makes it so much easier to dismiss me by summing me up and categorizing me...

I probably don't do everything exactly like the majority oh MD&D posters would prefer...but I've tried my darnest to be respectful of fellow posters despite our very different perspectives of Mormonism ... Guess I should change my name to dangerfield.

But I guess I didn't really come to this forum for love...but I naively hoped for mutual respect...

[Bernard Gui]

From "Joseph Smith's Reputation," Dean Jessee, Ensign, September, 1979.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/09/joseph-smiths-reputation?lang=eng

One of the Prophet’s plural wives, having lived three years in his home, reflected late in her life, “I have known of his outgoings, and his incomings, his sorrows and joys, his troubles and afflictions in public and in private. He was one of the noblest of men and those who knew him best, loved him most.”¹⁴

14.

Emily Dow Partridge Young, Diary, typescript, 27 June 1898, Church Hist. Dept. Archives.

[ERayR]

I was unaware that the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon was at issue in this thread?

Whether you have that testimony from the Holy Ghost is the only relevant thing

[Biz]

From "Joseph Smith's Reputation," Dean Jessee, Ensign, September, 1979.

http://www.lds.org/e...tation?lang=eng

This is a good yet embedded step forward. A recent step I might add too, prior to them adding the ensign issues online in the last few years and may I add 1-2 years for earlier ones like that 1979 issue.

[Biz]

Whether you have that testimony from the Holy Ghost is the only relevant thing

I could have a testimony of the Book of Mormon while at the same time being a member of the community of Christ.

[Tacenda]

Nehor,

Well then, you might as well just substitute Biz for the fellow in Africa. My experience was not unlike his. Since my experience, I have seen many others have the same train hit them that hit me when I found out Joseph Smith had more than one wife.

Ditto, but it was a layering of new information that finally did it.

[Biz]

No matter what needle in a hay stack ensign issue people cry... see here... see there, two issues are created for a large number of people.

1) I was not negligent in my Church studies, and 2) The Church has lost a significant amount of credibility.

[Johnnie Cake]

Johnnie Cake, how do you know the poster is real and not putting you on?

Well...to be honest...he very well could be...but keep in mind I've only shared a small snipit from our conversation...I also have the advantage of having seen his FB page...while he could be punking me...everything he's shared with me makes me believe hes being very authentic and honest with me...when I address Nehor concerns in the morning, hopefully some of these doubts can be set aside.

I should add I didn't start this thread to convince anyone that my conversation was real....I never imagined it would even be questioned. I merely wanted to share a real life faith crisis with this crowd in real time to show what it like to discover that the church isn't what you believed it to be...remarkiablly this boy is still clinging to his belief...but only by a thread...and the church he once believed in...he come to discover never really existed

[ERayR]

So you're skeptical of my conversation claim as well...fair enough you've never been one of my fans...not unexpected...so I'm sure you'll apologize if convinced I'm telling the truth...

I'm an admitted non believer...that's no secret...by what exactly is supposed to be my motivation for perpetrating this fraud? Oh yeah I'm a evil, anti Mormon SOB at least that where this forum has filed me...guess it makes it so much easier to dismiss me by summing me up and categorizing me...

I probably don't do everything exactly like the majority oh MD&D posters would prefer...but I've tried my darnest to be respectful of fellow posters despite our very different perspectives of Mormonism ... Guess I should change my name to dangerfield.

But I guess I didn't really come to this forum for love...but I naively hoped for mutual respect...

Whether it is real or not is unimportant to me. The way you chose to approach it, rather it is real or imagined is important. You chose to withhold information that would present the material in a much more favorable light. Then you chose to just continue to feed him unfavorable information in other areas again withholding more favorable information. At least Paul Dunn used his stories to build up his audience and not to tear them down.

Your disbelief is yours. Do with it what you will but if you ever had an affirmation by the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon was true then just for kicks go back and start there again, leaving all the irrelevancies out.

Edited June 21, 2013 by ERayR

[ERayR]

I could have a testimony of the Book of Mormon while at the same time being a member of the community of Christ.

Then go back to the source of that testimony and follow where it leads you. At the very least you should be able to shake the bitterness against the LDS Church from your soul.

[Bernard Gui]

From Liahona, April 1980.

"150 Years of Church History"

1843

July 12. A revelation on the “Eternity of the Marriage Covenant and Plural Marriage” (D&C 132) was recorded, giving fuller meaning to the “new and everlasting covenant” which had been mentioned as early as 1831. The Prophet had explained the doctrine to a few, and plural marriages had been performed in 1841.

[The Nehor]

Nehor,

Well then, you might as well just substitute Biz for the fellow in Africa. My experience was not unlike his. Since my experience, I have seen many others have the same train hit them that hit me when I found out Joseph Smith had more than one wife.

Oh, I do not doubt that people struggle with these issues. I have myself. I just do not believe this perfect storm of silliness.

Well you've raised several issues...most of them based on speculative conclusions you've made to confirm your bias'. But I would like to address each one and will do so first thing in the morning when I'm on my laptop rather than my iPad. As a skeptic myself I can appreciate your skepticism but honestly....All I can do if likewise give my answers to ure observations...and while I get that they may not satisfy you...I will answer as honestly as I can

I'm sorry you don't find me trustworthy...and think me a liar and a fraud but I assure you that were I the creature you've imagined I am..having made up a fake conversation...I would have torn into church claims in a much more harsh manner...but whatever...I'll make an honest attempt to address your observations

You do not want to tear in harshly. You know that would get you banned. Your bragging about being able to rip us apart is revealing. Instead you are coyly trying a stance of being a faux innocent with no stake in the matter interested solely in truth. Your protestations not to get angry at you but instead at correlation material was pretty blatant. Explicitly trying to make that point was another reason I do not believe you. Shakespeare had something to say about protesting too much. You are not nearly as subtle as you imagine yourself to be.

[Biz]

Bernard, I appreciate your offerings. But when you add faithful attendance to primary, aaronic priesthood / youth Sunday school, 4 years of seminary, 2 year mission, 4 years of institute, having read most modern church manuals and filled my book shelf with numerous books from Deseret Book only to find out material facts after the fact it's a little embarrassing both to the Church and myself to find out basic facts that should have adopted into every stage of my church growth.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Biz