ERayR Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 ERayR, why the heck do you have to pull up these scriptures I was on a roll.Just my nature. 1
Avatar4321 Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 By the description given my guess is a sex change operation. That is about the only thing one can do to their body that will prohibit temple activity.But couldn't they likewise have a operation to change back?
ERayR Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 I would simply add the following to your last sentence: . . . unless we change course.This doesn't mean that there won't be limitations that we may have to endure in mortality as a result of actions we take. But ultimately, we can recover from all sin an avoid damnation unless we have managed to qualify for perdition.I try very hard not to add to scripture as it is beyond my pay grade to do so. I might at times render my understanding of a scripture but will warn with a IMNSHO when I do so. Well most of the time.
Mark Beesley Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) No it doesn't. He'll never get Temple Priveleges. His pain is indescribable because when he just about comes to peace with that, then someone asks him when he'll get his, but he'll never get his, not in this life any how. The church is being hypocritical. He even made a vow to obey all the covenants and live out his life celibate. He told me he is done with the church and I am in a lot of pain for him and I may be done TOO !Ellen, when I read this comment from you, I thought back to something else you wrote yesterday in another thread.ANYTHING BUT APOLOGY.What he said just underlines the necessity of having a personal witness. Even if everything he said in his article is true, the events surrounding my own conversion overcome that. I hope everyone that wants it gets that blessing.I know you have received a witness that helps in times of trial. But often we get frustrated with policies or practices in the Church, and we wonder if the atonement really is infinite and eternal. (It is.)I was reading the following in the Bible this morning, and I thought of you:Humble yourselves, therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time; casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.1 Peter 5:6-7The points that made me think of you are:1. It is God who exalts, not the Church, not temple privileges, nothing here;2. God will do it in due time; we need to be patient; and3. He cares.And it bears repeating: The atonement is infinite and eternal, we just may not experience all the joy it brings on our own timetable.Happy thoughts to you and your friend. He's lucky to have someone to share his pain with. Edited June 6, 2013 by Mark Beesley
ERayR Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 But couldn't they likewise have a operation to change back?I don't know if that is possible once done. There are complications that, I think, makes it irreversible. Also if one such operation prohibits temple attendance why would two be any better?
Maestrophil Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 What a persons "parts" are should have nothing to do with current worthiness, right? Keeping the commandments is the standard, and if a person gets a procedure done, then vows to live the commandments - why not give them a recommend? Seems odd to me.
Mark Beesley Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 I try very hard not to add to scripture as it is beyond my pay grade to do so.I hope you get a promotion soon.
ERayR Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 What a persons "parts" are should have nothing to do with current worthiness, right? Keeping the commandments is the standard, and if a person gets a procedure done, then vows to live the commandments - why not give them a recommend? Seems odd to me.It would seem odd to someone who doesn't understand Mormon theology . To Mormons gender our gender is tied too our roles and responsibilities in the scheme of things. God created man. Male and female created he them. 1
ERayR Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 I hope you get a promotion soon. I'm hoping the time will come that I will, but not that soon. I'm happy on this side of the veil right now, even with my health problems.
Freedom Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 There are limitations put on what can be accepted in this life for baptism in order to maintain order in the church. What restricts a person from being baptized or receiving a temple recommend in this life, however, may not prevent that person from entering the celestial kingdom in the next. If someone is truly repentant, they would willingly accept the consequences of their actions and humbly wait for the fullness of the atonement to take affect. I know a fellow (or used to know) who cannot be baptized because his family will kill him if he joined the church. He will have to wait for the resurrection. In his case, he is prevented from joining the church because of the choices of others and not his own. Which situation is less fair? I know a fellow who committed a crime when he was 18 years old and , 30 years later, he is still not able to enter the U.S. Should he be bitter against the American government? 2
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 It would seem odd to someone who doesn't understand Mormon theology . To Mormons gender our gender is tied too our roles and responsibilities in the scheme of things. God created man. Male and female created he them.I don't see your point. If he got his boy parts cut off, has repented and is living as a man again, there is no reason not to reinstate every priviledge he had before. Talking some girl into marrying him would be hard, so the whole "Temple Marriage" thing might not happen, but there is no reason he shouldn't be endowed or "re-endowed".
Maestrophil Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 I don't see your point. If he got his boy parts cut off, has repented and is living as a man again, there is no reason not to reinstate every priviledge he had before. Talking some girl into marrying him would be hard, so the whole "Temple Marriage" thing might not happen, but there is no reason he shouldn't be endowed or "re-endowed".Agree
Avatar4321 Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 I don't know if that is possible once done. There are complications that, I think, makes it irreversible. Also if one such operation prohibits temple attendance why would two be any better?I dont know the details behind it. But if it was possible, wouldn't that by definition be a clear example of repentence? Maybe it couldnt create a perfect solution. But why would repentence in any matter make things worse?
Avatar4321 Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 What a persons "parts" are should have nothing to do with current worthiness, right? Keeping the commandments is the standard, and if a person gets a procedure done, then vows to live the commandments - why not give them a recommend? Seems odd to me.At first glance, I would agree. But thinking about it, the Temple has very specific covenants regarding gender. That could be problematic. 1
Maestrophil Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 At first glance, I would agree. But thinking about it, the Temple has very specific covenants regarding gender. That could be problematic.Yes, they would have to return to living the covenants for the gender "assigned" to them at birth - that's my $.02
ERayR Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 I don't see your point. If he got his boy parts cut off, has repented and is living as a man again, there is no reason not to reinstate every priviledge he had before. Talking some girl into marrying him would be hard, so the whole "Temple Marriage" thing might not happen, but there is no reason he shouldn't be endowed or "re-endowed".See Freedom's post # 35 above.
ERayR Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 I dont know the details behind it. But if it was possible, wouldn't that by definition be a clear example of repentence? Maybe it couldnt create a perfect solution. But why would repentence in any matter make things worse?Repentance has a restitution part to it. I don't know but that may be part of it. The inability to restore(undo) what is done. Through a family member who is involved in this lifestyle I know that a restoration of blessings is possible up to the time such an operation is done but not after.
Questing Beast Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) I still don't understand the title.I think that in her perturbation, Ellen left the "y" off of "gay". The OP seems to say that some Mormons assume she is a reformed lesbian and think she's some kind of "authority" on GLBT matters? Just a guess.... Edited June 6, 2013 by Questing Beast
EllenMaksoud Posted June 6, 2013 Author Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) I don't know if that is possible once done. There are complications that, I think, makes it irreversible. Also if one such operation prohibits temple attendance why would two be any better?As far as I can tell, according to him, there is no path in the church for people who had the sex change operation. He says he was specifically read a document that states that. If this is so, then the Atonement can not apply to him. If there is a path for gays or lesbians who covenant to be either celibate or marry someone of the opposite sex so they can be fully recognized in the church, then it is inconsistent not to offer him the same path. I'm not backing down on this. He lived as a woman for several years, and decided to repent of that. As far as I am concerned, there is no excuse for those who refuse to accnowlege his repentance, refuse to fully apply the Atonement, and fully recognize him as a member.I was still very upset this morning, so went out today volunteering in order to clear my head so Heavenly Father could talk to me. I am still not settled by his plight and don't plan to calm down.As to my personal conduct, I intend to continue to be obedient to Heavenly Father. Edited June 6, 2013 by EllenMaksoud 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 Repentance has a restitution part to it. I don't know but that may be part of it. The inability to restore(undo) what is done. Through a family member who is involved in this lifestyle I know that a restoration of blessings is possible up to the time such an operation is done but not after.What?! This is not the Gospel of the scriptures. Only blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will loose you any possible blessings, and if you did that you are not one that would want them anyways.Please, refrain from limiting the Atonement of our Savior.
ERayR Posted June 7, 2013 Posted June 7, 2013 What?! This is not the Gospel of the scriptures. Only blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will loose you any possible blessings, and if you did that you are not one that would want them anyways.Please, refrain from limiting the Atonement of our Savior.Whoa up there hoss. I am just repeating what a family member who is in the lifestyle has told me. He lives as a woman but does not do the sex change operation because he of this. Now I can not vouch for the accuracy of this at this time. I suspect that the keys of the sealing power give the Prophet some authority in matters like this.
ERayR Posted June 7, 2013 Posted June 7, 2013 I am still not settled by his plight and don't plan to calm down.As to my personal conduct, I intend to continue to be obedient to Heavenly Father.Ellen I have read several of your posts where you testified of a personal spiritual affirmation of the truthfulness of the Church. What has changed now? Do you think the Holy Ghost did not know about this when he testified to you?
EllenMaksoud Posted June 7, 2013 Author Posted June 7, 2013 Ellen I have read several of your posts where you testified of a personal spiritual affirmation of the truthfulness of the Church. What has changed now? Do you think the Holy Ghost did not know about this when he testified to you?I don't have an excuse that does not make me ill.
Calm Posted June 7, 2013 Posted June 7, 2013 (edited) As far as I can tell, according to him, there is no path in the church for people who had the sex change operation.I would suggest you refrain from judgment until you get full information about the topic from someone official and not just passed on information. It must be a very emotional and difficult subject for him as well as he may not have understood what something actually meant and 'translated' it into meaning something else in his mind and then supplied you with this information. Ask to read the document for yourself if you have the chance.I will write my friends at FAIR and see if anyone has specific info they can point you toward. Edited June 7, 2013 by calmoriah
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