Joseph Copied Parts Of The Book Of Mormon From The Kjv Bible (Church Source)

[Calm]

Perhaps we have a different difinition of fraud...to me fraud is to make a false claim and claim it to be true when you know it is false. Are you suggesting that Joseph believed he could find buried treasure?

My memory (and perhaps Nevo or someone else well acquainted with the history will correct me if I am wrong) of the Josiah Stowell incident is that it was Mr. Stowell who came looking for Joseph to do the work, that Joseph discourage him if not initially, at least at the end so the work was finally stopped, that Mr. Stowell testified in the case in favour of Joseph and that there is an open debate as to whether the case was actually a conviction or not and whether or the money assessed was a fine or a fee.

As to whether or not Joseph believed he could find buried treasure, I believe he believed that he could find things in some cases (there are reports that he did identify locations of some lost items...though there is debate whether or not he staged such findings; if one assumes he did not, then there is reason for others as well as himself to believe in his ability to locate things to a certain extent), but I don't know if in this specific case he had any confidence or whether he made an effort in hopes of satisfying the desire of his employee but without assurance that it would happen in this case. It seems to me he and those who knew he the best understood that his ability worked at times and did not at others, why the variation...sometimes it was Joseph's fault (as in the case where he was angry at Emma's), sometimes it wasn't...including having unrighteous desires such as greed.

I don't remember any claims from Joseph himself about his ability with the seer stones prior to the production of the Book of Mormon (perhaps "production" will work for you instead of "translation" without having the negative connotations of "so-called"), are you aware of any? Others made claims for him...but do you think that should count as showing his own intent and understanding of his abilities, whatever they were?

Brant Gardner wrote a book that you might be interested in that deals with the worldview where Joseph fits in as the village seer: http://bookstore.fairlds.org/product.php?id_product=1227 Even if you are skeptical about the reality of his and others' abilities to do such things, I think one needs to accept that others possess a serious belief that such things are possible, even those performing such acts that you would assume are frauds.

Edited May 29, 2013 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

Not sure what you mean by this. "Knew" as in he was obedient to the laws contained within it (was a good Christian iow) or was directly familiar with the content (was an expert or at least educated in what the Bible said, had spent significant time studying it). If the second, are you speaking about Joseph in regards to all of his life, at the time he was translating the Book of Mormon or sometime later in this life?

If the latter, I would agree. His earlier spiritual experiences led him to immerse himself in the Bible, I believe. However, I also believe that while his Christian environment growing up would have given him some familiarity with Biblical events and teachings, that there was much in the detail he lacked in knowledge as evidenced by Emma's report he was not aware that Jerusalem had walls.

Well, personally I think he knew the contents of the Bible very well. After all, in the early 1800's there was no TV, video games, cars, or football. I also think he was marvelously cheeky in setting up his own church when so young. Sometimes I wonder if he could have been bi-polar or something? I have nothing but admiration for the man and his wish to know Heavenly Father.

[Calm]

Well, personally I think he knew the contents of the Bible very well.

Even as a youth? His mother described him as the least literate and interested in reading of her children. Obviously he was interested enough to read James so perhaps his mother just had too high standards of comparison. However, then you have Emma's impressions that were pretty much the same, including her recital of the episode where he was surprised to find out that Jerusalem had walls, something that is often mentioned in the Bible, for example in Nehemiah.

I don't see him as being bi-polar, the manic and depressive behaviour is lacking in my opinion. The confidence/arrogance of Joseph may be seen as extreme, but I don't see evidence of other extreme behaviour of the disorder and diagnosing a disorder based on one condition would be inappropriate.

add-on: in comparison to what we would considered illiterate about the Bible among youth these days, I suspect we could say he probably knew the Bible well...but today's standard would be an almost complete lack of knowledge and exposure while his day if they were church attending there would be at least some significant exposure there as well as likely family scripture reading time even if he never opened the Bible himself in private study before the episode with James (I don't know if he did or didn't, just using the 'worst case scenario' so to speak).

Edited May 29, 2013 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

I agree with Ellen, with no distractions like we have now,it's amazing what people in his era were able to do. I even think he could have channeled things from HF and made up stories to go along, sort of like parables. The gal that wrote Harry Potter was amazing wasn't she? Couldn't JS have done the same thing? I'm sure he may have been inspired to set things straight. People during that time desired answers and what better way than through JS, that took the time to ask and asked in faith. People are always saying there is no way a farm boy with such a low education could have written the BoM. Joseph had a library, he also had plenty of time to read several books that align closely with the BoM. Sometimes God needs his children to do things for him, well most of the time his work is done with our hands, right? Still on the fence about the church and my up and down testimony attests to it, but if I'm going to believe in the church again, that's the way I would have to look at it.

ETA: Oh Cal, is that true that JS hardly ever read? Or is it possible that later in life he devoured books, there was a long time in between the time he said he got the plates to the time he produced the BoM.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Tacenda

[EllenMaksoud]

Even as a youth? His mother described him as the least literate and interested in reading of her children. Obviously he was interested enough to read James so perhaps his mother just had too high standards of comparison. However, then you have Emma's impressions that were pretty much the same, including her recital of the episode where he was surprised to find out that Jerusalem had walls, something that is often mentioned in the Bible, for example in Nehemiah.

That is a surprising view from a Mormon. Of course, the main basis of my faith in the Mormon church is what happened to me between March 11, 2010, and March 1st of 2012. There were a series of events that are not explainable except by the direct action of Heavenly Father. I have Faith in Heavenly Father, and that also gives me the power to stand against those who lack faith in me.

[Ahab]

Even as a youth? His mother described him as the least literate and interested in reading of her children. Obviously he was interested enough to read James so perhaps his mother just had too high standards of comparison. However, then you have Emma's impressions that were pretty much the same, including her recital of the episode where he was surprised to find out that Jerusalem had walls, something that is often mentioned in the Bible, for example in Nehemiah.

I don't see him as being bi-polar, the manic and depressive behaviour is lacking in my opinion. The confidence/arrogance of Joseph may be seen as extreme, but I don't see evidence of other extreme behaviour of the disorder and diagnosing a disorder based on one condition would be inappropriate.

He was a ponderer, and he liked to think about the things of God. Rather than continually reading a book written by other people he often took time to consider what he had already read and what others like his Mom and Dad were reading to him, making it all personal to him... or as Nephi would say, likening the scriptures to himself. Or I think it was Nephi who said that, maybe not. Anyway, he thought in terms of of principles while trying to communicate with God in his mind, and heart. And there is nothing wrong with being confident, even if some people do mistake it for arrogance.

[EllenMaksoud]

I agree with Ellen, with no distractions like we have now,it's amazing what people in his era were able to do. I even think he could have channeled things from HF and made up stories to go along, sort of like parables. The gal that wrote Harry Potter was amazing wasn't she? Couldn't JS have done the same thing? I'm sure he may have been inspired to set things straight. People during that time desired answers and what better way than through JS, that took the time to ask and asked in faith. People are always saying there is no way a farm boy with such a low education could have written the BoM. Joseph had a library, he also had plenty of time to read several books that align closely with the BoM. Sometimes God needs his children to do things for him, well most of the time his work is done with our hands, right? Still on the fence about the church and my up and down testimony attests to it, but if I'm going to believe in the church again, that's the way I would have to look at it.

Well, look at poor Moses. Though probably educated very well in the palace, he was still painfully meek.

[Calm]

Joseph had a library, he also had plenty of time to read several books that align closely with the BoM.

What library? And when did he have plenty of time? Granted no video games and such to fill his free time, but also no electricity at night to read by, having to work to get enough to eat, to buy the land, to make up for money lost in various investments by his father, etc. so not a lot of leisure time

[EllenMaksoud]

He was a ponderer, and he liked to think about the things of God. Rather than continually reading a book written by other people he often took time to consider what he had already read and what others like his Mom and Dad were reading to him, making it all personal to him... or as Nephi would say, likening the scriptures to himself. Or I think it was Nephi who said that, maybe not. Anyway, he thought in terms of of principles while trying to communicate with God in his mind, and heart. And there is nothing wrong with being confident, even if some people do mistake it for arrogance.

I see him as being quite brash at times, but also very compassionate. Some have said that his libido was out of control, but I go with the idea that Polygamy was mainly about property rights, at least at first.

[Calm]

That is a surprising view from a Mormon.

Why? I am pretty much just repeating what his mother and wife claimed and that is often pointed out to support the idea that Joseph was an uneducated farm boy that could not have on his own produced the Book of Mormon because he lacked the knowledge and skill at that time.

I differentiate between the knowledge that Joseph had of the scriptures when he was young and newly married and when he was older and had the time and made the effort to study, even to the point of hiring someone to teach him Greek and Hebrew and German IIRC.

Edited May 29, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

He was a ponderer, and he liked to think about the things of God.

At least during certain periods in his life. IIRC he described himself as too concerned with the things of the world as a teenager, too easily distracted from preparing himself. But if so, that just makes him human.

[Calm]

Well, look at poor Moses. Though probably educated very well in the palace, he was still painfully meek.

If you mean he was reluctant to speak to Pharaoh and the Lord gave Aaron to him as a spokesperson, I would agree in that case he was meek. However, he was also confident enough to take on an Egyptian guard and kill him as well as being told off by the Lord as needing to repent of his arrogance of taking credit for God's work.

I think it is very human to vary in our responses. I see myself as terminally shy because that is what I was growing up, though others saw me as being reserved and standoffish and probably arrogant and certainly nowadays "shy" isn't what people would see though that is exactly how I still feel...it is just my behaviour doesn't match because other aspects of my personality are stronger these days.

Human beings aren't consistent and thankfully so, we must vary our behaviour to the conditions that surround us, we grow out of childish obsessions most of the time, we learn to respond in better ways to others, we learn to take advantage of what surrounds us, etc. etc. I would hope that Joseph as an adult would behave differently than Joseph as a youth or young adult. I would expect it and I think we find great evidence of it.

I don't see it as evidence against him being inspired or operating as a prophet, seer or revelator.

[Calm]

Polygamy was mainly about property rights, at least at first.

I am assuming you mean the Old Testament. If you mean Nauvoo, could you expand on this please

[EllenMaksoud]

Why? I am pretty much just repeating what his mother and wife claimed and that is often pointed to support the idea that Joseph was an uneducated farm boy that could not have on his own produced the Book of Mormon because he lacked the knowledge and skill at that time.

I differentiate between the knowledge that Joseph had of the scriptures when he was young and newly married and when he was older and had the time and made the effort to study, even to the point of hiring someone to teach him Greek and Hebrew and German IIRC.

Then perhaps the things that he produced HAD to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, which according to our church, is entirely reasonable.

[Ahab]

At least during certain periods in his life. IIRC he described himself as too concerned with the things of the world as a teenager, too easily distracted from preparing himself. But if so, that just makes him human.

Things of the world is a very broad category. I'm sure his mind wasn't always focused on things of God, but I'm also sure his mind was focused on the things of God more than usual for someone who was his same age. I think he was a lot like me when I was younger and if I were to point out my own faults I'd probably also generalize by saying I focused too much on the things of this world. But I still turned out okay.

[Calm]

ETA: Oh Cal, is that true that JS hardly ever read? Or is it possible that later in life he devoured books, there was a long time in between the time he said he got the plates to the time he produced the BoM.

You are misunderstanding me if you think I am claiming throughout his life he was uninterested in books. I have been clear, I thought, that the claims of his lack of knowledge of the Bible only refer to his youth and young married state (when he was translating the Book of Mormon). Later on he went to great effort to become educated. This topic is about the translation of the Book of Mormon so what is relevant is how much education he had up to that time.

[tagriffy]

Even as a youth? His mother described him as the least literate and interested in reading of her children. Obviously he was interested enough to read James so perhaps his mother just had too high standards of comparison. However, then you have Emma's impressions that were pretty much the same, including her recital of the episode where he was surprised to find out that Jerusalem had walls, something that is often mentioned in the Bible, for example in Nehemiah.

Didn't Joseph's mother also have him say he could learn more about religion by going out into the woods with his Bible? And as I remember, she didn't say Joseph was illiterate, merely uninclined to much reading. Also the religious uproar leading to the First Vision destroyed "all confidence in settling the question by an appeal the the Bible" (JS-H 12). This suggests that Joseph at least tried to do so.

[EllenMaksoud]

I am assuming you mean the Old Testament. If you mean Nauvoo, could you expand on this please

No, I meant in the early years of the church. What happened in the OT, I don't think can be moralized about because there could have been all sorts of reasons it happened. Perhaps women often married just for protection. In the case of Abram, his wives were first under the protection of their father and then Abram. Even today, a woman alone is not safe unless she takes adequate precautions.

As far as the Mormon church, I have heard several different stories. Which one do you believe?

[Calm]

As far as the Mormon church, I have heard several different stories. Which one do you believe?

I believe he was trying to instigate a celestial family network on earth.

I am very curious as to how you see property rights playing out in Nauvoo polygamy. Perhaps you would like to start a new thread or just PM me.

[Calm]

Didn't Joseph's mother also have him say he could learn more about religion by going out into the woods with his Bible? And as I remember, she didn't say Joseph was illiterate, merely uninclined to much reading. Also the religious uproar leading to the First Vision destroyed "all confidence in settling the question by an appeal the the Bible" (JS-H 12). This suggests that Joseph at least tried to do so.

You may be correct and I may be just mixing up what Emma said about him with what his mother said.

There is indeed evidence that he had some interaction with the Bible...such as his appeal to James. I don't see it as likely that was the first time he sat down with a Bible either. It makes sense that he would appeal to the Bible when in the debate on what was the church of God on earth to find out what that church should look like. He couldn't have come to the various judgments he made beforehand if he hadn't (in one version he states, IIRC, that he had decided no church he knew of matched the NT description).

So the question for me is how familiar was he, was he familiar enough to identify scripture references, was it a photographic memory and was this evidence that he had read Isaiah and other parts of the Bible referenced in the BoM or was he at least familiar enough with scriptural language to recognize that something was scripture and then appeal in J Green's scenario to a copy of the Bible through the Spirit or in others' scenario to one that was on hand or was it whatever was giving him the language that was the source....or something else.

[ERayR]

No, I meant in the early years of the church. What happened in the OT, I don't think can be moralized about because there could have been all sorts of reasons it happened. Perhaps women often married just for protection. In the case of Abram, his wives were first under the protection of their father and then Abram. Even today, a woman alone is not safe unless she takes adequate precautions.

As far as the Mormon church, I have heard several different stories. Which one do you believe?

The one that says I don't know, this far removed there is no way of knowing. Beside for the present day it is irrelevant.

[EllenMaksoud]

I believe he was trying to instigate a celestial family network on earth.

I am very curious as to how you see property rights playing out in Nauvoo polygamy. Perhaps you would like to start a new thread or just PM me.

On that issue, I only know what I have been told by mormons.

[Questing Beast]

Not so, Beast.

Royal has many times stated his position that the BofM was translated into 16th century English long before Joseph came on the scene. The reason he says that, he explains, is that there are 15th and 16th century words and phrases used in that translation which went out of use in the interim -- thus leaving Joseph nowhere to have obtained them. Where could he have obtained such archaic language? Perhaps, one can speculate, it is God having fun with us.

Isn't speculation the same as not arriving at a conclusion? Skousen observes 16th century English phraseology no longer extant in JS's milieu, and speculates what that means, even offers a tentative opinion. I didn't see a conclusive explanation for the archaisms JS used....

[Nevo]

So the question for me is how familiar was he, was he familiar enough to identify scripture references, was it a photographic memory and was this evidence that he had read Isaiah and other parts of the Bible referenced in the BoM or was he at least familiar enough with scriptural language to recognize that something was scripture and then appeal in J Green's scenario to a copy of the Bible through the Spirit or in others' scenario to one that was on hand or was it whatever was giving him the language that was the source....or something else.

I don't put much stock in claims that Joseph didn't know the Bible very well. In his 1832 history he says he searched the scriptures from the age of 12, when his mind first "become seriously imprest with regard to the all importent concerns of for the wellfare of my immortal Soul." His comments suggest that he read it quite carefully.

As Philip Barlow points out, Joseph's 1832 account of his first vision is "laced with biblical expressions, revealing how thoroughly the boy's mind was steeped in the words and rhythms of the Authorized Version."

For instance, Joseph describes his prayer in the woods as 'my cry in the wilderness,' transposing Isaiah's words (40:3) and their messianic application by Matthew (3:3) to a radically new context. Joseph does not say the Lord 'spoke to me' but rather, he 'spake unto me.' . . . Groping for words adequate to the glory of his vision, Joseph describes the Lord as appearing in a 'pillar of fire' (Exod. 13:21) that was 'above the brightness of the Sun' (Acts 26:13). . . . Reporting the ensuing conversation, Smith quotes and paraphrases Jesus, using uncited expressions from throughout the KJV: 'none doeth good no not one' (Ps. 14:1); 'they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me' (Isa. 29:13); 'lo, I come quickly' (Rev. 3:11); and many others. . . . When Deity [came], Smith heard him speak in both biblical and Bible-like language" (Barlow, Mormons and the Bible, 14–15).

We see the same thing in the Book of Mormon. Barlow notes, for example, that 2 Nephi 9:16—a single verse—draws on KJV Matthew 24:35, Revelation 22:11, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:10, Hebrews 12:2, Matthew 25:34; and John 15:11. Seven biblical verses spread across four books of the New Testament! And this is not an isolated example. As Barlow puts it, "biblical phrases constitute the vocabulary building blocks of much of the Book of Mormon narrative" (Barlow, Mormons and the Bible, 28).

When the Angel Moroni visited Joseph in 1823, Joseph recorded that "he quoted part of the third chapter of Malachi; and he quoted also the fourth or last chapter of the same prophecy, though with a little variation from the way it reads in our Bibles" (JS-H 1:36). This suggests that Joseph either knew his Bible very well (Malachi 3 word for word) or he was able to memorize Moroni's exact wording and later noticed the differences when he compared it to the Bible. Either way, his recall is impressive.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Nevo

[omni]

Plus there seems to be an underlying assumption that the only use of a second set of plates would be for this second translation. There is, imo, no reason to assume this. If the records were in use by the Nephites at the time for their own reasons, having more than one account could be very helpful just as it is helpful these days to have more than one account for any historical information or even scriptural (having "another testament of Christ" is a plus, is it not?)

Cal, this may be true, but then why are we not being taught this? Sometimes I wonder if I attend the same church as the rest of you. I have been in the church for over 30 years rarely missing a Sunday, grew up in a very active family in the heart of Utah, attended seminary/institute, served a mission, MIT, and I have always been taught that they reason for the large plates was because God in his infinite wisdom knew the 116 plates would be lost so he had Lehi and his family create a second set. It's the same with the JST, I have always been taught that it was an inspired translation that JS used to correct the mistakes of the Bible.

This doesn't even begin to get into the many other discrepancies between what I learn here as opposed to what I learn in church or conference regarding pre-Jaradites/Nephites/Lamanites on the American continent, seer stone in the hat, JS papyri being used as a catalyst, etc...but I guess that's for another thread.