Zion Society

[Robert F. Smith]

I would say pretty much like New Zealand...

Yes, and unlike Stone holm (who has a negative approach), there are other examples of "Zion" societies, e.g., the Hutterite Brethren.

It is nice to know that there still exist in this world exemplars of nice, cohesive societies, with happy and holy people, in which backbiting and rumormongering do not control every waking hour. At one time, in the 19th century, according to Kenneth Rexroth, the Mormons had just such a society: They had brought to practical reality the communal movements of the 1840s, i.e., a low-pressure, small-scale utopian socialist movement which actually worked!! See Rexroth, Communalism: From Its Origins to the Twentieth Century (N.Y.: Seabury, 1974), available for free download at http://ebookbrowse.com/rexroth-kenneth-communalism-from-its-origins-pdf-d469832461. That's right: The United Order in which true consecration and stewardship took place.

[Robert F. Smith]

It doesn't fit or not fit. Economy is required, of some kind, or of diverse kinds. The secret ingredient to Zion's economy is that nobody is out for "number one", everyone is focused on everybody else as much as on themselves. That kind of charity makes cooperation easy, and "there are no poor among them"....

The Founding Fathers of the USA formulated the Constitution in lieu of the good people that it takes to have automatic harmony. In the Federalist Papers, they noted that, if men were angels no such Constitution would be necessary, and that is why they formulated a government of laws and not men -- because we cannot trust each other. We must watch each other like hawks. Someone will inevitably be tempted to cheat. Thus, we have three separate and coequal branches of gov't, with enumerated powers, checks and balances, to prevent bad people from destroying the whole. It isn't very efficient, and we often have to limp through crises, but we avoid absolute dictatorship and manage to wait a little longer for the Messiah to come, and for purification of the hearts of mankind. Someday . . .

[wenglund]

Exactly what would we expect a Zion type community to be like? We spend a lot of time encouraging people to work for such a society, but what would it be like. Can we envision it in anything other than what it would not be like?

I think it would look a lot like my current Ward.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Stone holm]

I would say pretty much like New Zealand...

Trying to get my head around the irony of this statement Bikeemikey, though my wife who has never been there agrees.

[Ahab]

Exactly what would we expect a Zion type community to be like? We spend a lot of time encouraging people to work for such a society, but what would it be like. Can we envision it in anything other than what it would not be like?

It's what I think most people think of as "heaven", however long a person may be able to live there. And I say that because for some reason some people don't seem to think we can achieve it until we are dead, or until we can no longer die, as if we would have to be at a point where we would no longer need food or shelter to survive.

I think of people doing things for other people out of the charity in their hearts, instead of for money or to "get gain" for themselves. Everyone would benefit in some way from an economy based on charity, though, so it's not as if we could totally get rid of the idea of getting some kind of gain.

Imagine how you think life would be in heaven, and that is what living in Zion is like.

[brightpath]

True Zion will be established by the literal seed of Israel once the New Jerusalem is built.

[Ahab]

True Zion will be established by the literal seed of Israel once the New Jerusalem is built.

Zion is a name used to refer to people who have pure hearts, meaning they desire to do good. That is the WHO, and the WHAT.

The American continent (including what is called North, Central, and South America) is WHERE we will live, primarily, on this planet, but HOW we will live is what I think we should think of, primarily. And the best characterization for HOW is that we will live by the principles of charity in our own hearts as well as the charity given to us by others who also live by the principles of charity.

The WHY is because that is the best way we can possibly live.

[brightpath]

Amen brother that is correct but like I said TRUE Zion will be established once NJ is built. Right now we got to do the best we can with what we have. You are correct.

[Ahab]

Amen brother that is correct but like I said TRUE Zion will be established once NJ is built. Right now we got to do the best we can with what we have. You are correct.

Zion has already been established, and it will continue to be built up as people do more good in their lives based on the principles of charity. Many people have already made and are still making covenants to build it up on this Earth by living the law of consecration, devoting their time talents abilities and all the Lord has or may bless them with to not only help themselves but to help others based on the principles of charity. It's not as if we're all on hold and can't do anything to establish Zion until some time in the future. We are already building it up and inviting other people to join with us. Zion is anywhere the pure in heart are, and the pure in heart on the American continent are Zion.

[brightpath]

No sir! We are striving to be like Zion but Zion is not established yet. True Zion will be established when all of the literal seed of Israel is gathered. Israel is not gathered yet so therefore Zion is not established yet. Once the literal seed is gathered and the NJ is built then Zion will be established.

[Stone holm]

No sir! We are striving to be like Zion but Zion is not established yet. True Zion will be established when all of the literal seed of Israel is gathered. Israel is not gathered yet so therefore Zion is not established yet. Once the literal seed is gathered and the NJ is built then Zion will be established.

Maybe, I am misunderstanding your posts, but as I understand it Zion will descend upon this continent and the ten tribes will be gathered to it, New Jerusalem will occur where Jerusalem is and Judah and Benjamin will be gathered to it. But we are commanded to build a Zion society now. The question of this thread is if that is the case what is such a society like? How will it function.

[bdouglas]

I think that Hugh Nibley's "Approaching Zion" is by far the best book on the subject. I first read it several years ago, and I have since re-read it. It changed my thinking in many important ways.

[BlueDreams]

Amen brother that is correct but like I said TRUE Zion will be established once NJ is built. Right now we got to do the best we can with what we have. You are correct.

hehehe....I read that as New Jersey.....probably still true.

[Maidservant]

hehehe....I read that as New Jersey.....probably still true.

Cory Booker comes to mind, soooo . . . yea .

[Stone holm]

hehehe....I read that as New Jersey.....probably still true.

New Jersey...now that is a scary thought.

[Questing Beast]

I think that Hugh Nibley's "Approaching Zion" is by far the best book on the subject. I first read it several years ago, and I have since re-read it. It changed my thinking in many important ways.

Amen to that. I gave away copies of that book to members of my family and a few close friends/neighbors, at the time, which was back in the mid 90's. I still live by the principles understood by Nibley as Zion principles. When enough of "us" do that on our own, "Zion" will, de facto, exist....

[Stone holm]

Amen to that. I gave away copies of that book to members of my family and a few close friends/neighbors, at the time, which was back in the mid 90's. I still live by the principles understood by Nibley as Zion principles. When enough of "us" do that on our own, "Zion" will, de facto, exist....

I have to admit I have not read this book what does he basically portray it to look like economically and socially?

[Sevenbak]

We had this lesson today, on living the law of consecration. Someone brought up the Conference talk by President Marion G. Romney about Socialism versus the United Order. The talk itself does an amazing job of describing the original thread question (http://emp.byui.edu/WILLIAMSG/talks/mgr_unitedorder.htm), but as we have some far lefties and some far righties in the ward, it unfortunately got kind of testy.

[volgadon]

We had this lesson today, on living the law of consecration. Someone brought up the Conference talk by President Marion G. Romney about Socialism versus the United Order. The talk itself does an amazing job of describing the original thread question (http://emp.byui.edu/...unitedorder.htm),

Honestly, the talk misses the point. I might catch flack for this, but by Communism he really meant to say the Stalinist government in the Soviet Union, which is not quite the same thing as the economic concept- communism. Much of what president Romney describes for the United Order would not sound terribly foreign to many communist groups.

[bdouglas]

In Pres. Romney's view, the United Order differed from Russian style communism in two key areas, private property, and belief in God. But otherwise JS and BY's concept of a Zion society was not that different in other key respects to the socialist ideal (note I said "ideal", not "practice"). But then again, those two items (belief in God and private property) are big items.

Edited April 21, 2013 by bdouglas

[brightpath]

There are different versions of Zion. I emphasis TRUE Zion will be established once the NJ(Not New Jersey ha) is built and the 10 tribes and Israel reunite.

[Bikeemikey]

In Pres. Romney's view, the United Order differed from Russian style communism in two key areas, private property, and belief in God. But otherwise JS and BY's concept of a Zion society was not that different in other key respects to the socialist ideal (note I said "ideal", not "practice"). But then again, those two items (belief in God and private property) are big items.

How ever I citing private property he also differed in definition from how the law of consecration was originally practiced by the church under JS.

Some one correct me if i am wrong on this. People deeded their property to the church and got back stewardships??

[Tacenda]

How ever I citing private property he also differed in definition from how the law of consecration was originally practiced by the church under JS.

Some one correct me if i am wrong on this. People deeded their property to the church and got back stewardships??

Stewardship of what?

[Stone holm]

How ever I citing private property he also differed in definition from how the law of consecration was originally practiced by the church under JS.

Some one correct me if i am wrong on this. People deeded their property to the church and got back stewardships??

I think we need to cut Pres. Romney some slack, this was still the Cold War Era and they were dealing with Stalinist Communism in the Soviet Union and Cuba, and Maoist Communism in the PRC. I don't think he was intending to tag the various democratic versions of socialism in Western Europe, or even the Kibbutzim in Israel. Whether he correctly described the United Order is up for grabs. The general Church line now is that the United Order was abandoned due to the inability of the Saints to live righteously, although in fact several United Order communities were very successful, but had to be dissolved because of fear that the Feds were going to confiscate their property under the anti-polygamy laws -- which suggests that the exclusive private property orientation wasn't really how they operated. It would be very difficult for us to start up United Order communities in America currently due to politics and economic doctrine, but we could start setting them up in some of the third-world countries which would make a lot of sense.

[volgadon]

I think we need to cut Pres. Romney some slack, this was still the Cold War Era and they were dealing with Stalinist Communism in the Soviet Union and Cuba, and Maoist Communism in the PRC. I don't think he was intending to tag the various democratic versions of socialism in Western Europe, or even the Kibbutzim in Israel. Whether he correctly described the United Order is up for grabs. The general Church line now is that the United Order was abandoned due to the inability of the Saints to live righteously, although in fact several United Order communities were very successful, but had to be dissolved because of fear that the Feds were going to confiscate their property under the anti-polygamy laws -- which suggests that the exclusive private property orientation wasn't really how they operated. It would be very difficult for us to start up United Order communities in America currently due to politics and economic doctrine, but we could start setting them up in some of the third-world countries which would make a lot of sense.

I think it is rather obvious that he didn't appreciate the difference between economic systems and totalitarian governments, so if someone had pointed out other examples, I'm not sure that he would have agreed.