Zion Society

[Questing Beast]

I have to admit I have not read this book what does he basically portray it to look like economically and socially?

As with all the Nibley collection, the book is a collection of talks and papers and articles of his over the years on the topic of "Zion", thus "Approaching Zion" is all about starting those changes within our individual selves that are necessary to even make a beginning of "approaching Zion". Nibley's lifelong contention is that we as the LDS people are not only far from approaching Zion, we are in fact moving in opposition to Zion in most of how we think and live. He recites in one talk the experience of his grandfather Charles W. Nibley, as an illustration of what is antithetical to Zion, etc....

[janderich]

I think it is rather obvious that he didn't appreciate the difference between economic systems and totalitarian governments, so if someone had pointed out other examples, I'm not sure that he would have agreed.

Marion G. Romney asside from being an apostle, received his bachelors degree in history and political science from the University of Utah. In the talk referred to he discusses Fabian Socialism and touches on the Manifesto. Given all this, I find it hard to believe that he did not appreciate the difference between economic systems. However, if you still feel he is in the dark what of the many other prophets and apostles who have spoken against Socialism and Communisim? These include Joseph Smith, Heber J. Grant, David O. McKay, J. Ruben Clark, Howard W. Hunter, Ezra Taft Benson, and others. Didn't they also not appreciate the difference between ideals and tactics?

There is a fundamental difference between these systems and the United Order. It is freedom! And freedom does not travel a path where the few control the many. That is why it cannot be forced on a people. That is why Socialism or Communisim will never lead to it.

"In things that pertain to celestial glory there can be no forced operations. We must do according as the spirit of the Lord operates upon our understandings and feelings. We cannot be crowded into matters, however great might be the blessing attending such procedure. We cannot be forced into living a celestial law; we must do this ourselves, of our own free will. And whatever we do in regard to the principle of the United Order, we must do it because we desire to do it..." (Lorenzo Snow, JD, Vol. 19, p.346, 349-350)

[volgadon]

Marion G. Romney asside from being an apostle, received his bachelors degree in history and political science from the University of Utah. In the talk referred to he discusses Fabian Socialism and touches on the Manifesto. Given all this, I find it hard to believe that he did not appreciate the difference between economic systems.

That just makes his obvious errors all the more indefensible. Also, what does his being an apostle have to do with anything? Here is an example of an apostle relying on unreliable sources. http://calba-savua.blogspot.com/2011/04/did-saadia-gaon-maimonides-believe-in.html If that isn't enough, another apostle whose quote is frequently used in Sunday School got almost everything wrong about shepherding in Israel. Those are just two examples that should suffice to show that being an apostle does not automatically make one an authority on everything.

However, if you still feel he is in the dark what of the many other prophets and apostles who have spoken against Socialism and Communisim? These include Joseph Smith,

His remark was different in both substance and context to Romney's.

Heber J. Grant, David O. McKay, J. Ruben Clark, Howard W. Hunter, Ezra Taft Benson, and others. Didn't they also not appreciate the difference between ideals and tactics?

I have a good idea of which quotes you mean, but I'm not going to address them blindly, nor do I suppose that they are quite germane. I'm not discussing the difference between "ideals and tactics," I'm discussing the difference between political and economic systems.

There is a fundamental difference between these systems and the United Order. It is freedom! And freedom does not travel a path where the few control the many. That is why it cannot be forced on a people. That is why Socialism or Communisim will never lead to it.

This in itself shows that you don't get the difference that I have been talking about.

[brightpath]

Nibley is right! We are far from approaching to being Zion. Zion will not be established until the NJ is built and Israel is gathered. Zion will be established once thus is done.

[Stone holm]

Nibley is right! We are far from approaching to being Zion. Zion will not be established until the NJ is built and Israel is gathered. Zion will be established once thus is done.

Elaborate?

[Avatar4321]

Elaborate?

New Jersey is the key to Zion;)

[brightpath]

Read 3 Nephi 21 and DC 132. This will be enough elaboration. When the literal seed of Israel builds the New Jerusalem and the lost 10 tribes return then true Zion will be established

[Stone holm]

Read 3 Nephi 21 and DC 132. This will be enough elaboration. When the literal seed of Israel builds the New Jerusalem and the lost 10 tribes return then true Zion will be established

Yeah, true but it is not my understanding that we are to wait until the Millenium to start striving for Zion. I classify that as the Millenium syndrome whereby we put off anything that we believe eventually needs to happen, but which is politically or economically uncomfortable or inconvenient until the Millenium. Elder McConkie fell into that trap with Africans and the Priesthood, and that is pretty much the same trap we have fallen into when it comes to the United Order, etc.

[brightpath]

Yeah, true but it is not my understanding that we are to wait until the Millenium to start striving for Zion. I classify that as the Millenium syndrome whereby we put off anything that we believe eventually needs to happen, but which is politically or economically uncomfortable or inconvenient until the Millenium. Elder McConkie fell into that trap with Africans and the Priesthood, and that is pretty much the same trap we have fallen into when it comes to the United Order, etc.

Yes it is important that we strive to be like Zion but TRUE Zion will not be established until the New Jerusalem is built and Israel is gathered.

[Avatar4321]

Perhaps we as a people should begin praying for the Lord to establish Zion in our lives and ultimately for the city to be established with the help of our brethren.

[tyler90az]

I think it would look a lot like my current Ward.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You have never been to my ward then.

[Stone holm]

That just makes his obvious errors all the more indefensible. Also, what does his being an apostle have to do with anything? Here is an example of an apostle relying on unreliable sources. http://calba-savua.blogspot.com/2011/04/did-saadia-gaon-maimonides-believe-in.html If that isn't enough, another apostle whose quote is frequently used in Sunday School got almost everything wrong about shepherding in Israel. Those are just two examples that should suffice to show that being an apostle does not automatically make one an authority on everything.

His remark was different in both substance and context to Romney's.

I have a good idea of which quotes you mean, but I'm not going to address them blindly, nor do I suppose that they are quite germane. I'm not discussing the difference between "ideals and tactics," I'm discussing the difference between political and economic systems.

This in itself shows that you don't get the difference that I have been talking about.

Any reliance on a University in Utah as establishing expertise in political economic history would be treated with severe skepticism elsewhere. I stick with my previous position that we have to cut him some slack because of the Cold War. And as to Pres Benson , we need to avoid that discussion altogether as I don't want this topic locked for politics. I was asking what would a typical community in a Zion Society look like. Try and think in very concrete terms. All we really know about Enoch's City was there were no poor among them.