God'S Standard Of Modesty Vs Cultural Understanding Of Of Modesty

[Saints Alive]

After reading this: http://www.lds.org/church/news/modesty-reflects-discipleship-commitment-auxiliary-leaders-say?cid=HP000023〈=eng

I wonder if God has a universal standard of modesty or if modesty is culturally driven and completely arbitrary.

Assuming a universal standard of modesty; were adam and eve living immodestly in the garden (before the fall)?

Assuming a cultural standard of modesty; which culture our we to follow? If I live outside of Utah where tank tops and short shorts are acceptable (or man skirts, or thousands of other cultural examples) am I still being modest if i follow those cultural trends? What if I visit (or move to) another area with a different cultural dress standard, which cultural standard of modesty am I required to follow?

[omni]

Why is it okay for a man to show is stomach when swimming, but it is immodest for a women to wear a two piece swimsuit? Why is is we are told it is now inappropriate for men to have long hair or beards because societal views have changed in the last fifty years, but it is still immodest for a women to expose her bare shoulders even though societal views have changed in the last fifty years to make it completely acceptable?

[Duncan]

I think it's cultural or societal specific and I think we are responsible for our own thoughts. I think you can go way overboard with modesty as well.

[Rivers]

Did the angel Moroni display God's standard of modesty?

Edited April 12, 2013 by Rivers

[Saints Alive]

Did the angel Moroni display God's standard of modesty?

Wonder what kind of looks I would get if I wore an angel Moroni robe to church?

[Ahab]

Why do some people need to ask what modesty is? Isn't there a good enough definition in some dictionary somewhere?

[Saints Alive]

Why do some people need to ask what modesty is? Isn't there a good enough definition in some dictionary somewhere?

mod·es·ty noun \ˈmä-də-stē\

Definition of MODESTY

1: freedom from conceit or vanity

2: propriety in dress, speech, or conduct

Courtesy of: http://www.merriam-w...tionary/modesty

Which definition do you wish to use?

if 1: who decides what is vain or conceited, perhaps I wear short shorts (I don't actually wear short shorts) because they are comfortable.

if 2: who decides what is proper (my original question), God or society?

Edited April 12, 2013 by Saints Alive

[Ahab]

mod·es·ty noun \ˈmä-də-stē\

Definition of MODESTY

1: freedom from conceit or vanity

2: propriety in dress, speech, or conduct

Courtesy of: http://www.merriam-w...tionary/modesty

Which definition do you wish to use?

Both work together, so I would say both.

if 1: who decides what is vain or conceited, perhaps I wear short shorts because they are comfortable.

Why do some people need to ask what is vain or conceited? Isn't there a good enough definition in some dictionary somewhere?

if 2: who decides what is proper (my original question), God or society?

Why are you asking me, or anyone else? Can't you find a good enough definition in some dictionary somewhere? But that was written by someone, wasn't it, so why do you need to see what he or she said? Don't you know how to find out? If you don't know something who do you turn to for your answers if you want to make sure you are right or come up with the best answer?

Sheesh. Do you just like to talk about every issue under the sun or do you really not know how to find out what you should think on this issue?

[cinepro]

After reading this: http://www.lds.org/c...000023〈=eng

I wonder if God has a universal standard of modesty or if modesty is culturally driven and completely arbitrary.

Assuming a universal standard of modesty; were adam and eve living immodestly in the garden (before the fall)?

Assuming a cultural standard of modesty; which culture our we to follow? If I live outside of Utah where tank tops and short shorts are acceptable (or man skirts, or thousands of other cultural examples) am I still being modest if i follow those cultural trends? What if I visit (or move to) another area with a different cultural dress standard, which cultural standard of modesty am I required to follow?

Since the Church is made up of people, and those people have to live in some sort of society, I see the teachings of "modesty in dress" as the point where the "Church" (i.e. the doctrines and theories of the gospel) interface with the reality of the people living in a culture. As the people and the culture change, that point of contact will necessarily change.

The principles are pretty constant as far as I can tell, it's just the application (which is always shifting and imperfectly implemented) that changes and can be over or under-done.

[TAO]

Omni, to be quite honest, I always wear a shirt when I am swimming. And I'm a guy. It just feels more modest. It's not the rules obviously, but it's what I feel like doing.

Also, who says that something culturally driven can't be of God ;-). Not saying all culturally driven things are (far from it), but perhaps some can be to a degree of the issue.

[KevinG]

I view this the same way I view white shirts for the sacrament. It may not be doctrinal but it sure is respectful to be moderately adherant to societal standards so you aren't a distraction to others as they try to worship and live.

[EllenMaksoud]

After reading this: http://www.lds.org/c...000023〈=eng

I wonder if God has a universal standard of modesty or if modesty is culturally driven and completely arbitrary.

Assuming a universal standard of modesty; were adam and eve living immodestly in the garden (before the fall)?

Assuming a cultural standard of modesty; which culture our we to follow? If I live outside of Utah where tank tops and short shorts are acceptable (or man skirts, or thousands of other cultural examples) am I still being modest if i follow those cultural trends? What if I visit (or move to) another area with a different cultural dress standard, which cultural standard of modesty am I required to follow?

I think that often cultural mores on modesty come from environmental requirements. Starting with something I know about, the deserts of Northern Africa are dry, hot, sandy and windy. If you look at the Tuareg and Bedouin cultures, when they are out in caravans, both men and women cover everything but their eyes. They had no fancy sun screen. Somehow, in the Middle East that became a cultural edict. These days concupiscience runs so rampant in us culture, and anywhere that Westerners have been. Today, I had lunch with a Sister and going into the resturant, I ran into a group of Muslim Sisters in all their stuff. I, on the other hand was wearing my cute little knee length dress with cap sleeves and relative high (Not) neck line. I felt so insecure and exposed. They looked covered and secured. Yesterday I saw a woman I know on Facebook wearing a teeny bikini! At times, I really miss Islam except for the fact that they do not properly view Jesus Christ and do not have the Atonement.

If you wish, you could take your standards up a notch. I intend to.

[bcuzbcuz]

Both work together, so I would say both.

Why do some people need to ask what is vain or conceited? Isn't there a good enough definition in some dictionary somewhere?

Why are you asking me, or anyone else? Can't you find a good enough definition in some dictionary somewhere? But that was written by someone, wasn't it, so why do you need to see what he or she said? Don't you know how to find out? If you don't know something who do you turn to for your answers if you want to make sure you are right or come up with the best answer?

Sheesh. Do you just like to talk about every issue under the sun or do you really not know how to find out what you should think on this issue?

You seem thoroughly confused. Modesty is socially dictated and culturally modified. It is not a matter of a dictionary definition. Islamic women in Sweden wear body length garments when swimming. Their garments cover their hair, their arms and their legs. Women in many Arabic countries wear gloves so that not even their hands show. In many Catholic countries women always cover their hair when entering a church, as do many of the Jewish conservative faiths. Amongst some Orthodox Jews women shave their heads to avoid having their hair show. In Utah a woman's swim suit is considered inappropriate if it shows too much skin.

You come across as being male. If I'm wrong, correct me. But as a male, you've probably never given a thought to appropriateness or social norms. Whatever you've chosen, is correct. Women do not face the same world.

[Saints Alive]

Absolutely right, especially for women, standards of modesty can be 180 degrees different depending on the location and social context.

[omni]

Omni, to be quite honest, I always wear a shirt when I am swimming. And I'm a guy. It just feels more modest. It's not the rules obviously, but it's what I feel like doing.

Also, who says that something culturally driven can't be of God ;-). Not saying all culturally driven things are (far from it), but perhaps some can be to a degree of the issue.

I understand that you feel for yourself modesty involves wearing a shirt while swimming, but that's different than saying God wants woman's stomachs to be covered, but is okay with men's stomachs being uncovered. I have no problem believing that something culturally driven is of God, what I see is a contradiction when people justify our modesty standards (knee length shorts/skirts, covered shoulders, one piece bathing suits) by saying things like, "God's ways are not man's ways", or "God is an unchanging God" and then in the next sentence justify the no facial hair policy on changing cultural standards.

Edited April 13, 2013 by omni

[CV75]

After reading this: http://www.lds.org/c...000023〈=eng

I wonder if God has a universal standard of modesty or if modesty is culturally driven and completely arbitrary.

Assuming a universal standard of modesty; were adam and eve living immodestly in the garden (before the fall)?

Assuming a cultural standard of modesty; which culture our we to follow? If I live outside of Utah where tank tops and short shorts are acceptable (or man skirts, or thousands of other cultural examples) am I still being modest if i follow those cultural trends? What if I visit (or move to) another area with a different cultural dress standard, which cultural standard of modesty am I required to follow?

There must be some standards in the presence of God, but on earth, these are translated for teaching and developmental purposes into doctrines, covenants and ordinances. These involve counsel from those who have the keys to bring these doctrines, covenants and ordinances to us. As we sustain the Lord's annointed, we abide by the standards they set not so much because they are culturally approrpriate, but because we are training ourselves to keep the various covenants with a certain spirit.

For example, Naaman had to wash in the river seven times--this didn't make sense to him culturally, but he was blessed for doing it and it trained his spirit. The same would hold for standards of modesty when requested. The idea is obedience, sustaining, and humility as well as the blessings of modesty. I don't think the bretheren are asking anyone to be less modest per the standards of their culture, where such might be the case.

[Shanky82]

I think that a good gage on the topic of modesty is to ask yourselves, if I were standing in the presence of the Savior, wearing what I am wearing right now, would I feel comfortable or would I feel uncomfortably out of place. Each of you must ask that question yourselves and answer it for yourselves. I can't answer that for you. If a women says that she would honesty feel comfortable standing in the presence of the Savior dressed in a tight tee shirt, exposing her midriff, low rise jeans, with her thong popping out the back, who or what am I to say anything against her. I might raise an eye brow, but I wouldn't cast final judgement on her. For myself however, I wwould feel comfortable stading the presence of my Savior if was dressed my best and modestly.

Also, I think that part of the problem with defining what modesty is lies with what we teach is the purpose of modesty. That, and who teach modesty to and how we teach it.

My personal thoughts on the purpose of modesty is that it is a standard of spiritual protection and power. Now I certainly hope no one who leans left of center on this blog thinks that I am saying that women who dress immodestly by our standards are somehow not deserving of Heaven's help and strength in dealing with temptation nor am I saying that women who dress immodestly deserve either harsh judgement or sexual harassment or, worst case, rape. I'm not saying that at all. But, what I am saying is that would you not want all the strength and protection you can get? Again, answer that question for yourselves. Don't give me your answer. I can only answer that question for myself.

Also, who we teach modesty to and how we teach it are a part of the definition of what modesty is. This is one of the few things I agree with progressive feminists on. I think that modesty should be taught to us men as well as to women. Of course, what is modesty for men? For women it is a little more obvious. But what about us men? Also, how we teach what modesty is. I agree with the feminists in that I think that modesty is a two way street. Surely we men have control over our own thoughts. Just because we see a women walking down the street in a tank top and short shorts or a tight and revealing dress doesn't mean we have to think anything judgemental or inapropriate about her. I would argue that we should treat her with all the dignity she deserves. We should treat her as if she were a member of our faith.

Anyway these are my own thoughts on this.

[Saints Alive]

I think that a good gage on the topic of modesty is to ask yourselves, if I were standing in the presence of the Savior, wearing what I am wearing right now, would I feel comfortable or would I feel uncomfortably out of place. Each of you must ask that question yourselves and answer it for yourselves. I can't answer that for you.

That is still culturally dependent. A topless amazon or african tribal woman would probably feel just fine standing topless in front of the savior. 99.99% of American women probably would not.

[Shanky82]

This reminds me of an incident that happened to me last summer back home in Minnesota. I'm from just outside of Saint Paul. one Friday night I was at the institute building, located just across from the University of Minnesota, waiting for the Friday night YSA activity to begin. I was sitting in the main lobby with some of my friends from he singles ward I attended, just joking about things. Anyway, across the street I noticed this girl out jogging. She was wearing this hot pink outfit, consisting of very tight short shorts and a sports bra. I observed her going into the building across the street and didn't think anything of her and turned back to having a conversation with my friends. Next thing I know, this girl comes walking up to the institute building and comes right in and asks where the our bathrooms are. I knew the second she came in that my friends were going to start joking about this, and sure enough, the second she walked down the hall one of my friends started to laugh and the jokes started. Anyway, the second counselor in our Elders Quorum chimed in and said that he didn't see what was so funny about the situation. He's a pretty smart guy. He teaches on the University of Minnesota. He said that because he's studied French art in some art history class of humanities that he doesn't see what the big deal was. I've had both a humanities class and art history so I know that the French like too show a lot of skin in their art.

Anyway, what I took from this experience is that it' is as equally important to refrain from judgement and to show kindness and respect towards those who don't follow our standards of modesty as it is to hold up our standard of modesty. We don't (or shouldn't) get in people's faces about it if they don't dress modestly. We should teach what it is, testify to the truth of it, and invite to come to know it is true for themselves and to act on what they come to know is true.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Shanky82

[Shanky82]

That is still culturally dependent. A topless amazon or african tribal woman would probably feel just fine standing topless in front of the savior. 99.99% of American women probably would not.

I know. That's why I said, answer this question for yourselves. I'm not casting judgement on women who grew up in a culture where it acceptable for women to be topless. So maybe the answer to the original question is that it is both a cultural thing and a universal thing.

[kenporay]

I wonder if God has a universal standard of modesty or if modesty is culturally driven and completely arbitrary.

In the final analysis everything is arbitrary.

[Nathair/|\]

In Ferengi culture, a female wearing any clothing at all is considered immodest and obscene. Hence, Ferengi males consider it erotic when Ferengi females do wear clothing. (I'm not sure if that's canon since I've only seen it referenced in EU novels.)

I suspect that a working definition of immodesty in dress could start with, "to dress in a manner that the majority of people in a given culture would find erotic."

[Duncan]

In Ferengi culture, a female wearing any clothing at all is considered immodest and obscene. Hence, Ferengi males consider it erotic when Ferengi females do wear clothing. (I'm not sure if that's canon since I've only seen it referenced in EU novels.)

I suspect that a working definition of immodesty in dress could start with, "to dress in a manner that the majority of people in a given culture would find erotic."

what is "ferengi"?

[Nathair/|\]

what is "ferengi"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi

[CV75]

I know. That's why I said, answer this question for yourselves. I'm not casting judgement on women who grew up in a culture where it acceptable for women to be topless. So maybe the answer to the original question is that it is both a cultural thing and a universal thing.

Good point. Let's look at teh actual questions again:

Assuming a universal standard of modesty; were adam and eve living immodestly in the garden (before the fall)? This is not ascertained by the standard being spelled out for us (becaue it isn't spelled out anywhere) -- but, the Garden of Eden is not the same "universe" as exaltation. On what basis shoud we assume a universal or a multi-universal standard?

Assuming a cultural standard of modesty; which culture our we to follow? Assuming the culture of the Gospel, that standard which is provided by the Lord's annointed. Assuming any other culture, by that corresponding culture, unless the person has made Gospel covenants.

If I live outside of Utah where tank tops and short shorts are acceptable (or man skirts, or thousands of other cultural examples) am I still being modest if i follow those cultural trends? Only if you are true to the culture you belong to--if you have made Gospel covenants, the answer would be "No."

What if I visit (or move to) another area with a different cultural dress standard, which cultural standard of modesty am I required to follow? Whichever culture you ant to belong to--if you have made Gospel covenants, it would be the standard set by the Lord's annointed.