God'S Standard Of Modesty Vs Cultural Understanding Of Of Modesty

[Saints Alive]

That says young women shouldn't wear short shorts, so can young men?

Edited April 15, 2013 by Saints Alive

[DonBradley]

The standards of modesty aren't, of course, because God needs us to have them, but because we need them: they benefit individuals, cultures, and relationships. So, the appropriate standard can vary by geography and society. For Eskimos, one would think, the sight of a thigh might be highly titillating, since a thigh would rarely be exposed due to climatic conditions. For people in the tropics it might make good sense, because of the climate, to wear less, so the exposure of more areas of skin would be more typical and therefore less titillating. What might be appropriately modest in the latter context might seem highly sexual in the former.

Don

[Saints Alive]

The standards of modesty aren't, of course, because God needs us to have them, but because we need them: they benefit individuals, cultures, and relationships.

Don

That's probably the best answer given so far. thanks don

[Wanderer7]

That says young women shouldn't wear short shorts, so can young men?

It does say that young men should practice modesty as well. The next time I see a young man in short shorts and a tank top I'll be sure to point it out to him.

[Saints Alive]

It does say that young men should practice modesty as well. The next time I see a young man in short shorts and a tank top I'll be sure to point it out to him.

You've never been to San Francisco in the summer time have you?

Edited April 16, 2013 by Saints Alive

[EllenMaksoud]

You seem thoroughly confused. Modesty is socially dictated and culturally modified. It is not a matter of a dictionary definition. Islamic women in Sweden wear body length garments when swimming. Their garments cover their hair, their arms and their legs. Women in many Arabic countries wear gloves so that not even their hands show. In many Catholic countries women always cover their hair when entering a church, as do many of the Jewish conservative faiths. Amongst some Orthodox Jews women shave their heads to avoid having their hair show. In Utah a woman's swim suit is considered inappropriate if it shows too much skin.

You come across as being male. If I'm wrong, correct me. But as a male, you've probably never given a thought to appropriateness or social norms. Whatever you've chosen, is correct. Women do not face the same world.

It is becoming swimming time again. I used to use a bikini when away from Muslims (Shhhh), and did not swim with Muslims. So, now I am thinking that now that I have a fuller understanding of modesty, I will likely buy a "burkini". I am older, but look um OK, but I do not intend to wear what I have seen some Mormon women wearing on facebook. Just saying.

[Bernard Gui]

New article: http://www.lds.org/church/news/modesty-reflects-discipleship-commitment-auxiliary-leaders-say?cid=HP000023〈=eng

Good book on the subject by a Jewish woman: http://www.amazon.com/Return-Modesty-Discovering-Lost-Virtue/dp/B001GVJCBK

Once you receive the temple endowments, the standard of modesty is defined by the garment.

[Saints Alive]

Once you receive the temple endowments, the standard of modesty is defined by the garment.

Not if you are swimming or playing some sports.

[Calm]

changed my mind...

Edited April 16, 2013 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

You've never been to San Francisco in the summer time have you?

Those shoes. UGGH.

[Calm]

Those shoes. UGGH.

I was thinking the purse...too matchy matchy.

[Stone holm]

Not if you are swimming or playing some sports.

Actually for Mormons it is basically determined by the garments whether you are endowed or not its just that if not, they are virtual garments but they really still define what is or is not modest attire. For swimming and sports you simply lean towards the conservative. And if you are in a foreign land where even our standards would give offence, then you lean towards those standards if they are more conservative. Not sure I would expect a woman to dress in a bag just to please Muslims, but if I was a woman I would simply refuse to travel or stay in such countries.

[Calm]

Actually for Mormons it is basically determined by the garments whether you are endowed or not its just that if not, they are virtual garments but they really still define what is or is not modest attire.

There was a Friend article a bit back that had a young girl (IIRC around 6) insisting on wearing a t-shirt with a sun dress her grandma has sent her. This is a definite change since when I was a kid or even since my kids were kids.

[Stone holm]

There was a Friend article a bit back that had a young girl (IIRC around 6) insisting on wearing a t-shirt with a sun dress her grandma has sent her. This is a definite change since when I was a kid or even since my kids were kids.

Wonder if she will have the same attitude when she is sixteen. Funny, how we all tend to think of how girl's dress when we discuss modest attire, wonder if that is be cause boys tend to think of guys in speedos as kind of silly.

[Calm]

I didn't put my kids in tank tops and sundresses but that was because skin cancer runs in the family and I saw no reason to risk that if they were comfortable.

I do have an adorable shot of my daughter waiting for Grandma to arrive at the airport in a dressy little sunsuit, there was nothing immodest about it, the straps were not the type that might fall down...what a shame that picture would not be printable in the Ensign.

[thesometimesaint]

Actually for Mormons it is basically determined by the garments whether you are endowed or not its just that if not, they are virtual garments but they really still define what is or is not modest attire. For swimming and sports you simply lean towards the conservative. And if you are in a foreign land where even our standards would give offence, then you lean towards those standards if they are more conservative. Not sure I would expect a woman to dress in a bag just to please Muslims, but if I was a woman I would simply refuse to travel or stay in such countries.

I don't know of any country that requires non-Muslim foreign visitors that are women to wear the Burka, but some do required the Hijab head covering. IE; Turkey and Afghanistan.

[Johnnie Cake]

I stopped by Costco to pick up a few things today. Also entering the store was a party of young women who were dressed in a kind of uniform, sort of. They wore full length dresses in a somewhat bright pattern, all the same cut, mind you, with full-length sleeves, turtle necks, and all had on a bolero-type knitted garment (almost like a shrug). Oh, yes, and their hair was up in buns, with a doily-like covering over the bun. I have seen this before, and as curious as I was as to the nature of their clothing and the reasoning behind it, I did not of course intrude so as to satisfy that curiosity (if my wife had been with me, I might have asked her to inquire).

Probably Amish Women...

[Nathair/|\]

This is the true difference between modesty and immodesty in males:

[Calm]

I am never going to be able to think of the Loch Ness monster without cringing again...

[Maidservant]

New article: http://www.lds.org/c...000023〈=eng

Good book on the subject by a Jewish woman: http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B001GVJCBK

Once you receive the temple endowments, the standard of modesty is defined by the garment.

Just a bit of nit picky on my part, but the sleeve on the girl in the picture in the top article is pretty short. Deliberate, accident, or non-issue? lol (I personally have no problem with it, just wonder what it says about the meaning of modesty the church is trying to create--that is--if we are to wear sleeved shirts, we STILL all have a different idea about what quarter inch that fabric ought to stop. It's enough to drive a girl crazy for thinking at which quarter inch she's going to heaven or hell!)

The principle of modesty is I admit one of my greatest struggles. It is an open question I have to God so that I can come to some sort of understanding and peace on it. I welcome opportunities like this thread so I can have a chance to progress and ponder and wrestle and gain insight.

I have a question for everyone, and for myself, too.

Are we going to say that the principle of modesty is inextricably tied to sexuality and its expression (for better or worse)? Or what else are we going to say about modesty? I am still trying to answer this for myself. However, if yes, then sexuality is a far bigger question that has to be answered first before the "right" modesty answer can be formed.

Anyway, like I said, I have no conclusions but here are some elements I have so far that I know for myself.

1. Just to get this out of the way--in my view the story of Adam and Eve and the reference to nakedness has nothing whatsoever to do with bodies or clothing, and so that story's capacity to make comment on modesty and clothing is zero.

2. Our bodies are sacred. This seems like an 'of course', but keeping this in mind is important in the following statement: the naked body is not and cannot be obscene. The naked body is sacred. That which is sacred (body or anything) can be treated obscenely or profaned, but is the act of nakedness in and of itself that profanity? (I suspect it is not.)

3. We are talking about universal v cultural, but I like to lens it this way--what is the ultimate expression of social and personal body adornment and relationship as is lived in the celestial kingdom? And if we were to somehow know that, what would it say about our modesty choices? Are, then, our modesty laws and choices an interim, pragmatic matter because we don't know better and aren't prepared for greater laws? Or do they represent those greater laws already but we don't quite understand it? I don't know. Still thinking through this big time.

4. Clothing and modesty, especially for women, is often framed in terms of what a woman must want to present to the opposite gender. She wears "this" because she wants attention from men (I read that in the lds.net youth page linked in this thread and it bothers me that this is still being put forward). She wear "this" to be kind to the hormones of men. I reject this and the more I think about it and even try on for size the "kindness" and "appropriate" idea--it makes sense for about 10 minutes and then I just can't accept it any more. I have never worn clothes because of what I wanted to express to man (or even to society at large). I wear things because I think they are pretty! So that I can look like what I think of myself, and how I want to be creative! Even if I were to get a belly piercing, it would be because I think it looks cool! No other reason. Not a sexual reason, social reason, fit in a certain crowd reason, level of righteousness reason. Just because it looks cute and pretty. So maybe I'm super wrong about this, but I just think too much is made of all that, and I hate being in paradigm captivity on something that should be a lot more simple.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll think of some more things, but these are my beginning thoughts.

[Bernard Gui]

Not if you are swimming or playing some sports.

Why not?

[Stone holm]

Probably Amish Women...

Could be fancy Amish or conservative Mennonite.

[Saints Alive]

Why not?

It's always been my understanding that garments are the standard or modesty in that keeping them covered ensures modesty. Since we are not required or even encouraged to wear garments swimming they cannot be a measure or modesty. You might argue that even when not wearing garments you can still wear something that would cover them if you were wearing them. That might be true but is not done in practice as I have never seen a women wear a swim suit (even the most conservative one pieces) that would cover the garment if they were wearing it. Unless you think women should wear these swim suits:

Edited April 19, 2013 by Saints Alive

[cinepro]

The standards of modesty aren't, of course, because God needs us to have them, but because we need them: they benefit individuals, cultures, and relationships.

Don

They're obviously not for God because He sees us naked all the time anyway.