Www.Mormonsandgays.Org

[Calm]

MSG is not one of the essential amino acids, glutamic acid is one of the nonessentials, but MSG isn't that even, it is the sodium salt version of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate

Professor Ikeda studied the taste properties of many glutamate salts such as calcium, potassium, ammonium, and magnesium glutamate. All salts elicited umami in addition to a certain metallic taste due to the other minerals. Among those salts, sodium glutamate was the most soluble and palatable, and crystallized easily. Professor Ikeda named this product monosodium glutamate and submitted a patent to produce MSG.[7]

And there are plenty of natural substances, even ones that are healthy for most people, that cause allergic reactions in some. Edited March 27, 2013 by calmoriah

[MormonMason]

Could you please provide those sources? Forgive my skepticism, but MSG is already a favorite scapegoat despite having no scientific studies supporting all the absurd claims and despite the fact that it is a totally natural substance found in many foods. It is one of the essential amino acids.

The studies have been done and I no longer recall all the citations, but further work with this has been done and you can read the summary of such further research here:

"In Fruit Flies, Homosexuality Is Biological But Not Hard-Wired, Study Shows"

"Based on our previous work, we reasoned that GB mutants might show homosexual behavior because their glutamatergic synapses were altered in some way," said Featherstone. Specifically, the GB mutant synapses might be stronger.

"Homosexual courtship might be sort of an 'overreaction' to sexual stimuli," he explained.

To test this, he and his colleagues genetically altered synapse strength independent of GB, and also fed the flies drugs that can alter synapse strength. As predicted, they were able to turn fly homosexuality on and off -- and within hours.

"It was amazing. I never thought we'd be able to do that sort of thing, because sexual orientation is supposed to be hard-wired," he said. "This fundamentally changes how we think about this behavior."

http://www.scienceda...71210094541.htm

Edited March 27, 2013 by MormonMason

[Darren10]

If my young kid is on a camp and comes back able to tell me the sexual orientation of each of the adult leaders there then that is a sign something went wrong.

Thank you. And have I not emphasized homosexuals as being openly expressive in their lifestyles? Why yes, yes I have.

You seem to presume sexual identity an essential and unavoidable part of what will rub off one young kids as the are supervised by adults...

No, I have expressed supervision from adults who are openly gay will rub off on the kids. Why else should we actively seek positive role models for our children?

99% of communication with people (expect for very close friends) has nothing to do with their sex life or home life. Is there some other inherent vibe that gay people put off that makes them dangerous for youth to be around, even when the youth could have no reasonable way of knowing anything about their sexual orientation?

When the scouting program is sponsored by the LDS Church's local ward, I'd say there should be solid standards set to promote family. Mom and Dad sending their boys off for instruction with one who is openly gay is antithetical to those ends. No, I have no inherent problem with my kids playing with gay kids or going over to people's homes whose caretakers are gay. But scouting is far different than allowing your kids to go hang out. It's a program with inplicit support from the parents regarding their boy's upbrining. It's goal is to make boys men whch is sorely needed and a true miracle when accomplished. God's established His standards and young boys ought to be raised to seek a family when they are older.

I would not leave my kid with people I don't trust. I trust a few people to watch my kid, some of them are homosexual. The sexual orientation of who I let watch my kids is not even a variable that is factored into the mix.

That's just beautiful.

[ControlFreak]

MSG is not one of the essential amino acids, glutamic acid is one of the nonessentials, but MSG isn't that even, it is the sodium salt version of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate

And there are plenty of natural substances, even ones that are healthy for most people, that cause allergic reactions in some.

You are correct about the misuse of "essential". But it is an amino acid produced by the body. The salt form is no different once it is in solution.

The reason to believe it is not harmful is because many studies have come that conclusion and none to the contrary, fruit flies aside.

[ControlFreak]

The studies have been done and I no longer recall all the citations, but further work with this has been done and you can read the summary of such further research here:

"In Fruit Flies, Homosexuality Is Biological But Not Hard-Wired, Study Shows"

http://www.scienceda...71210094541.htm

Thanks. I'll read it. Important to note that this obviously doesn't prove anything about humans, but the ability to trigger the pathway is very interesting. We'll see if anything comes of it with regard to humans.

[Calm]

You are correct about the misuse of "essential". But it is an amino acid produced by the body. The salt form is no different once it is in solution.

Except that it has sodium along for the ride.

CFR please, btw. It has been too long since my chemistry classes. I would like to see the process to see if it is what I think it is.

add-on: there is also the issue of amount. Somethings that are essential for the body are poison to it in too large of amounts, especially if it is not something that is water soluble (I am specifically thinking about various vitamins, but there are plenty of other substances). Perhaps this is one of them.

Edited March 27, 2013 by calmoriah

[MormonMason]

Thanks. I'll read it. Important to note that this obviously doesn't prove anything about humans, but the ability to trigger the pathway is very interesting. We'll see if anything comes of it with regard to humans.

Got to go to rats and mice, first before humans, I'm afraid. That is the normal pathway of studies like these. Interesting enough, these sorts of studies actually go back to 1995, when 'genderblind' fruit flies (the ones used in the study I linked) were first created in the lab. Scientists were all over this in ridiculing the scientists for even suggesting that homosexuality could be caused by alterations of genes. Most of this information never made it to the general public, however, which I think is unfortunate.

[MormonMason]

Except that it has sodium along for the ride.

CFR please, btw. It has been too long since my chemistry classes. I would like to see the process to see if it is what I think it is.

add-on: there is also the issue of amount. Somethings that are essential for the body are poison to it in too large of amounts, especially if it is not something that is water soluble (I am specifically thinking about various vitamins, but there are plenty of other substances). Perhaps this is one of them.

The body metabolizes the substance. Here is an article that deals with the influence on insulin production of glutamates from MSG. They found that the more that is ingested, the more glutamate that ends up in the blood stream. http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/278/1/E83.full

[Calm]

The body metabolizes the substance. Here is an article that deals with the influence on insulin production of glutamates from MSG. They found that the more that is ingested, the more glutamate that ends up in the blood stream. http://ajpendo.physi.../278/1/E83.full

Very interesting. I wonder if that is the reason I get headaches with MSG, I tend to over produce insulin to begin with when sleep deprived (measure as hypoglycemic), low blood sugar triggers migraines for me.

[MormonMason]

Very interesting. I wonder if that is the reason I get headaches with MSG, I tend to over produce insulin to begin with when sleep deprived (measure as hypoglycemic), low blood sugar triggers migraines for me.

That is very possible. Some people just are sensitive to the substance in various ways. My eldest son had major asthma attacks within an hour afterward whenever he ate any food containing MSG. I also have a daughter who began exhibiting same sex attraction. We cut out most of the MSG out of our diets and these tendencies stopped in their tracks as well as my son's bad asthma attacks. Anecdotal, I admit, but I really think there may be a link for some people for several conditions. For some people who became diabetics, it is even possible that MSG was the cause for them as well in burning out their beta cells before their time. It may not have been the harmless substance everybody thought it was. Only time will tell for sure but there will be a lot of back and forth among the scientific community over this for quite some time.

[ControlFreak]

Except that it has sodium along for the ride.

CFR please, btw. It has been too long since my chemistry classes. I would like to see the process to see if it is what I think it is.

add-on: there is also the issue of amount. Somethings that are essential for the body are poison to it in too large of amounts, especially if it is not something that is water soluble (I am specifically thinking about various vitamins, but there are plenty of other substances). Perhaps this is one of them.

Your wikipedia article discusses the solubility of MSG. Once in the blood, it is just like having more Na+ and Glutamate, both of which are normally there anyway.

I'm not at all saying that high levels of either could be bad for you (see recent Nature study on how sodium affects Th17 immune system pathways, super interesting). I'm just saying that they are normal substances that the body can't do without. Too much water will also kill you. The biggest reason I think it is all a bunch of baloney is that no one has been able to perform a blind study where side effects of MSG were verifiable.

The body metabolizes the substance. Here is an article that deals with the influence on insulin production of glutamates from MSG. They found that the more that is ingested, the more glutamate that ends up in the blood stream. http://ajpendo.physi.../278/1/E83.full

Interestingly, this study was feeding people over 10g of MSG and reported no side effects other than "transient" headaches (150mg/kg, 180lb person/2.2lb/kg*150mg/kg = 12.3 grams). No offense to your anecdotal evidence, but if those conclusions were real, they would be scientifically verifiable. Just like vaccines don't cause autism just because someone noticed a coincidental timing of the two.

The fruit fly study shows that environmental factors (consumption of MSG) at least have the capability of affecting sexuality in flies, but it seems offensive and down right absurd to think that all homosexuals are just suffering the after affects of too much chinese food and will go back to being straight once they get the MSG out of their system. (Note that the study you cited shows the MSG metabolizes quite quickly.)

By all means, let's do more research on the subject, but please, let's not engage in hurful speculation about gays.

[Ahab]

It is hard to deny that the site coming out was prophetic. Only a short time later, now, we are hearing about people from all political parties supporting gay marriage. In 2016 the presidential ballot is likely to have two supporters of gay marriage on it. Then you throw in the fact that is going before the Supreme Court today. The website was undoubtedly prophetic.

http://www.mormonsandgays.org

I like how Elder Oaks spelled out exactly what the problem is. SSA (same sex attraction) is not a problem, or the problem. The problem is that "sexual activity" should be limited to a man and a woman who are legally and lawfully married. Any person can be attracted to some other person of the same sex without ever having sexual activity with that other person, or with anyone else of the same sex. And just because people of the same sex can get married to each other doesn't mean it is right for them to have sexual activity with each other. In their case, it's still wrong even if they are married to each other.

[Bikeemikey]

Thank you. And have I not emphasized homosexuals as being openly expressive in their lifestyles? Why yes, yes I have.

No, I have expressed supervision from adults who are openly gay will rub off on the kids. Why else should we actively seek positive role models for our children?

When the scouting program is sponsored by the LDS Church's local ward, I'd say there should be solid standards set to promote family. Mom and Dad sending their boys off for instruction with one who is openly gay is antithetical to those ends. No, I have no inherent problem with my kids playing with gay kids or going over to people's homes whose caretakers are gay. But scouting is far different than allowing your kids to go hang out. It's a program with inplicit support from the parents regarding their boy's upbrining. It's goal is to make boys men whch is sorely needed and a true miracle when accomplished. God's established His standards and young boys ought to be raised to seek a family when they are older.

That's just beautiful.

Don't think i disagree with any of that... still thinking about it.

[Maestrophil]

It did not directly predict what has happened. It did, however, proceed the events I stated. As Latter-day Saints we have very little control over what will happen with gay marriae. We do have control over our own hearts and minds. This website serves the purpose of softening Latter-day Saints for the inevitable. In that way it was very prophetic and timely.

By inevitable, do you mean the societal acceptance of gay unions, or the LDS doctrinal acceptance... I do not feel SSM will EVER be accepted as doctrinally sound. Any more than free love was in the 60s.

[Calm]

That is very possible. Some people just are sensitive to the substance in various ways. My eldest son had major asthma attacks within an hour afterward whenever he ate any food containing MSG. I also have a daughter who began exhibiting same sex attraction. We cut out most of the MSG out of our diets and these tendencies stopped in their tracks as well as my son's bad asthma attacks. Anecdotal, I admit, but I really think there may be a link for some people for several conditions. For some people who became diabetics, it is even possible that MSG was the cause for them as well in burning out their beta cells before their time. It may not have been the harmless substance everybody thought it was. Only time will tell for sure but there will be a lot of back and forth among the scientific community over this for quite some time.

Interestingly enough they just released a study showing that people with my sleep/movement/neurological disorder (all the doctors label it differently depending on what their speciality is in, lol) show high levels of glutamate in their brains.

For treatment they have been focusing on dopamine, but that only allows for sleep, doesn't improve the quality of it which was very mystifying until they came up with this find. They found the higher the levels of glutamate, the worse the sleep....mine must be almost off the charts then.

Not surprising considering all the different reactions to different drugs sufferers have, it is a more complicated picture than first appeared.

Will be interesting to see where this goes.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/restless_legs_syndrome_insomnia_and_brain_chemistry_a_tangled_mystery_solved

The only problem is I don't take in a lot of MSG, so if I am going to eliminate glutamate from my diet, it is going to have to be where it appears naturally and not just getting rid of the additives.

Edited May 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[MormonMason]

Interestingly enough they just released a study showing that people with my sleep/movement/neurological disorder (all the doctors label it differently depending on what their speciality is in, lol) show high levels of glutamate in their brains.

For treatment they have been focusing on dopamine, but that only allows for sleep, doesn't improve the quality of it which was very mystifying until they came up with this find. They found the higher the levels of glutamate, the worse the sleep....mine must be almost off the charts then.

Not surprising considering all the different reactions to different drugs sufferers have, it is a more complicated picture than first appeared.

Will be interesting to see where this goes.

http://www.hopkinsme..._mystery_solved

The only problem is I don't take in a lot of MSG, so if I am going to eliminate glutamate from my diet, it is going to have to be where it appears naturally and not just getting rid of the additives.

All the more reason for you to cut them out of your diet. You already may have too much in your system. By the way, you would be surprised how many foods contain the substance. They don't have to put it on the labels in many circumstances, particularly if the chemical occurs naturally. It also occurs naturally in tomatoes and cheeses, yeasts and soy products so you won't find it listed on the label in many circumstances.

See the following for further information:

http://www.fda.gov/Food/IngredientsPackagingLabeling/FoodAdditivesIngredients/ucm328728.htm

[Calm]

By the way, you would be surprised how many foods contain the substance.

Yeah, I've been reading up on it. To begin with, I am going to stick to lamb, eggs and potatoes and then go for variety with the fruits and vegetables since they have the lower levels. I am hoping there will be enough variety as even if I balance proteins, etc. but stick to a tight elimination diet, I get very weak and shakey....

We should probably take this conversation private as I doubt anyone else is interested in the latest topic of this thread, lol. I am going to miss my dairy, I live off of yoghurt and kefir (I am assuming that even the plain has the natural occurring glutamates, but maybe I'll get lucky and it will be okay).

Edited May 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[TruthSeeker2013]

Were this a political blog I'd have a field day with this one paragraph but I'll digress before this thread gets locked. But I do agree with your use of 'social progressive' but disagree that there is any great distinction between liberals and social progressives. There may have been at one time but not in the modern day.

I agree.

[TruthSeeker2013]

I like how Elder Oaks spelled out exactly what the problem is. SSA (same sex attraction) is not a problem, or the problem. The problem is that "sexual activity" should be limited to a man and a woman who are legally and lawfully married. Any person can be attracted to some other person of the same sex without ever having sexual activity with that other person, or with anyone else of the same sex. And just because people of the same sex can get married to each other doesn't mean it is right for them to have sexual activity with each other. In their case, it's still wrong even if they are married to each other.

I like how Elder Jensen of the 70 approached this:

And yes, some people argue sometimes, well, for the gay person or the lesbian person, we're not asking more of them than we're asking of the single woman who never marries. But I long ago found in talking to them that we do ask for something different: In the case of the gay person, they really have no hope. A single woman, a single man who is heterosexual in their thinking always has the hope, always has the expectation that tomorrow they're going to meet someone and fall in love and that it can be sanctioned by the church. But a gay person who truly is committed to that way of life in his heart and mind doesn't have that hope. And to live life without hope on such a core issue, I think, is a very difficult thing.

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/jensen.html

[TruthSeeker2013]

I like how Elder Jensen of the 70 approached this:

And yes, some people argue sometimes, well, for the gay person or the lesbian person, we're not asking more of them than we're asking of the single woman who never marries. But I long ago found in talking to them that we do ask for something different: In the case of the gay person, they really have no hope. A single woman, a single man who is heterosexual in their thinking always has the hope, always has the expectation that tomorrow they're going to meet someone and fall in love and that it can be sanctioned by the church. But a gay person who truly is committed to that way of life in his heart and mind doesn't have that hope. And to live life without hope on such a core issue, I think, is a very difficult thing.

http://www.pbs.org/m...ews/jensen.html

Sorry, here it is in bigger text:

And yes, some people argue sometimes, well, for the gay person or the lesbian person, we're not asking more of them than we're asking of the single woman who never marries. But I long ago found in talking to them that we do ask for something different: In the case of the gay person, they really have no hope. A single woman, a single man who is heterosexual in their thinking always has the hope, always has the expectation that tomorrow they're going to meet someone and fall in love and that it can be sanctioned by the church. But a gay person who truly is committed to that way of life in his heart and mind doesn't have that hope. And to live life without hope on such a core issue, I think, is a very difficult thing.

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/jensen.html

[Calm]

A single woman, a single man who is heterosexual in their thinking always has the hope, always has the expectation that tomorrow they're going to meet someone and fall in love and that it can be sanctioned by the church.

http://www.pbs.org/m...ews/jensen.html

I have to wonder how many single individuals he has talked to about this if he has never found one that didn't have the hope or expectation that they would find someone...ever and only believed that they would be able to be married in the next life if they stayed true to their covenants. I have quite a few in this situation over the years.

I don't disagree that we are asking something different of gays than heterosexuals...but I don't think this is it. I would not be surprised that given the ratio of heterosexuals to homosexuals if there were close to the same number of heterosexuals in the church who don't look forward to the possibility of marriage in this life for whatever reason as homosexuals in the church.

Edited May 15, 2013 by calmoriah

[TruthSeeker2013]

I have to wonder how many single individuals he has talked to about this if he has never found one that didn't have the hope or expectation that they would find someone...ever and only believed that they would be able to be married in the next life if they stayed true to their covenants. I have quite a few in this situation over the years.

I don't disagree that we are asking something different of gays than heterosexuals...but I don't think this is it. I would not be surprised that given the ratio of heterosexuals to homosexuals if there were close to the same number of heterosexuals in the church who don't look forward to the possibility of marriage in this life for whatever reason as homosexuals in the church.

There's still a difference in what's possible. A straight single person may believe that they will never meet the right person and marry in this life, but the possibility still remains. There is no possibiity for the LGBT person in the church.

Also significant is the fact that straight single members are able to date who they are attracted to while LGBT members would be discouraged from even dating (though I don't think it's prohibited).

[Calm]

There's still a difference in what's possible. A straight single person may believe that they will never meet the right person and marry in this life, but the possibility still remains. There is no possibiity for the LGBT person in the church.

This assumes that an LGBT will never, ever be attracted to someone of the opposite sex. I know several who have been and who are currently in what appears to be happy, loving, romantic marriages (that is how they describe them and unless they are lying, it is how I would describe them as well). (they did not marry to get cured, but married for love)

Granted it is not likely to happen and as long as someone refuses to consider the possibility it is unlikely to happen. I don't know who these marriages developed, that would be interesting to find out...to see if any had given up on finding a mate and then one just showed up....doubt if it happened quite that way.

Edited May 15, 2013 by calmoriah

[TruthSeeker2013]

This assumes that an LGBT will never, ever be attracted to someone of the opposite sex. I know several who have been and who are currently in what appears to be happy, loving, romantic marriages (that is how they describe them and unless they are lying, it is how I would describe them as well). (they did not marry to get cured, but married for love)

Granted it is not likely to happen and as long as someone refuses to consider the possibility it is unlikely to happen. I don't know who these marriages developed, that would be interesting to find out...to see if any had given up on finding a mate and then one just showed up....doubt if it happened quite that way.

I'll correct my statement: There is no possibiity for the VAST MAJORITY of LGBT people in the church. This is because sexual orientation rarely changes. You refer to people in mixed orientation marriages. Data shows (if my memory serves me correctly) that those marraiges fail around 70% of the time (John Dehlin collected and published this data). Josh Weed is the oft-referred to poster child of Mormon mixed orientation marriages but he has been careful to warn others that it's potentially very dangerous to enter a mixed orientation marraige (dangerous in that it is very likely to fail) and he has said that he would vigorously admonish those who are considering it to proceed with caution (during his interview with John Dehlin on the Mormon Stories podcast). So, yes, it's possible that some very very very small percentage of LGBT people will have a change in sexual orientation and/or marry someone of the opposite sex. For the vast majority of LGBT Mormons, there is no hope in this life of dating someone you're attracted to, marrying someone you're attracted to, etc.

[BlueDreams]

I'll correct my statement: There is no possibiity for the VAST MAJORITY of LGBT people in the church. This is because sexual orientation rarely changes. You refer to people in mixed orientation marriages. Data shows (if my memory serves me correctly) that those marraiges fail around 70% of the time (John Dehlin collected and published this data). Josh Weed is the oft-referred to poster child of Mormon mixed orientation marriages but he has been careful to warn others that it's potentially very dangerous to enter a mixed orientation marraige (dangerous in that it is very likely to fail) and he has said that he would vigorously admonish those who are considering it to proceed with caution (during his interview with John Dehlin on the Mormon Stories podcast). So, yes, it's possible that some very very very small percentage of LGBT people will have a change in sexual orientation and/or marry someone of the opposite sex. For the vast majority of LGBT Mormons, there is no hope in this life of dating someone you're attracted to, marrying someone you're attracted to, etc.

Though I would definitely agree with the idea that marriage of that sort would need to proceed with caution, I'm honestly skeptical about either angle: that marriage isn't possible but for a very few or that marriage is possible for most. The stats are few and dependent on that amount of people who volunteer or are willing to participate in such a research topic. Many, especially of the older gens, would prefer not to be apart of that. Many of this community are likely to remain to some extent in the closet, maybe discussing this as an issue of some sort in their life to those closest or that they feel comfortable with. I personally know 2 who aren't out and don't even label themselves as LGBT (I know because I've been told by them). For those that do manage to get married and lead a successful marital life in a generally conservative, religious environment....how many are going to be willing to step forward for a study? How many would even be aware of it? It's likely to skew the data. And it would be difficult to really assess this without an (expensive) longitudinal study that's just not likely to happen (funding, complicated designs, recruitment, etc...it would be difficult).

The rest of what you've mentioned isn't really based on actual research, but current common belief and understanding about sexuality and/or personal experience. Though I don't deny or generally doubt personal accounts, I do not believe most can be generalized to represent the overall population in question. Meanwhile our understanding about sexuality (especially on the general public level) is heavily value-laden based. I think there's faults with multiple views on it as well.

What I dislike most about the statement you've made is this idea that's kinda felt beneath it all. It's like stating: Mixed oriented marriages are bad....then concede that some do make it work well....but before you think of doing it remember it's basically still impossible and you'll have to be like superman to pull that off. It's just as bad as the messages that go along the lines of: yes you have this challenge, and no you shouldn't marry for a cure, but honestly you can still probably marry in a year or two....it's completely doable. Both just ring REALLY inaccurate and moreso based on the values the individual giving the message generally feels.

With luv,

BD

Edited May 15, 2013 by BlueDreams