Www.Mormonsandgays.Org

[Darren10]

did your sons ever have a Den Mother, when they were Cubs?

Yes and they all provided my sons with stellar examples of family life. Will an openly expressed homosexual do the same?

I too had a den mother. In fact years and years later my wife and I via her oldest son which I ran into at BYU, ended up renting her basement during my student teaching months. We were dirt poor yet lived in a million dollar house. Life is so unfair.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Darren10

[CASteinman]

Once I provide some quotes (one being the third paragraph in) I would be interested in you providing good solid sources that specifically provide evidence that homosexuals are bigger pedophiles compared to hetro-sexuals.

Why should I have to provide you with a source for something I did not claim? Where did that rule come from?

Another important thing to understand about a pedophile is his inability to gender differentiate when it comes to sexual arousal. Those who prefer mature partners have arousal patterns that demonstrate gender differentiation consistent with preferred gender, pedophiles have difficulty with this:

Pedophiles differentiated erotically between females and males less than males who erotically preferred physically mature partners.

Of all the quotes this is the only one that even begins to provide support for your statement. But it is far less emphatic in your declaration than you were and is a study using methods with unconfirmed reliability.

Hardly so definitive.

[Darren10]

I would imagine it would also depend upon whether you knew the gay/bi scout or scoutmaster. I am hopeful that regardless of the orientation of scout leaders that the BSA and parents also participate in scouting to be sure that it is a safe, educational and fun experience.

I hope the same regarding the parental involvement. But why would a parent want to be involved in sending their son off to an environment which does not promote certain key family virtues? Scouting helps to make boys into men. Those who act on homosexual tendencies do no such thing in so far as how to behave when deciding on a family. I don't think mormonsandgays disagrees.

[Darren10]

Do not be so sure about both of those predictions. We will have to wait and see. The election is four years out and none of the judges have hinted at what they would decide if they take on the case. There is no legal reason they have to ban marriage equality. There is also a great chance in 2016 the republican party is going to look a whole lot different then anytime before.

Oh, we already know that four will vote one way and four the other way. It's that Justice Kennedy which frequently becomes the wild card. But even there it seems likely to dismiss the case.

So far as the elections go, who would you point to on the GOP side to endorse gay marriage for 2016? I can't think of any beyond Rand Paul.

But I have been quite surprised in the past regarding elections and positions candidates have taken.

"Always in motion is the future"

Master Yoda.

And "ban marriage equality"? What are you talking about?

Edited March 27, 2013 by Darren10

[Bikeemikey]

Why should I have to provide you with a source for something I did not claim? Where did that rule come from?

Of all the quotes this is the only one that even begins to provide support for your statement. But it is far less emphatic in your declaration than you were and is a study using methods with unconfirmed reliability.

Hardly so definitive.

So you do not claim that homosexuals are more likely to be sexual predators or pedophiles but your initial response to two links that state they aren't is that they are fundamentally biased... despite admitting that you have not read them... I think your insinuation is evident, even if you did not expressly say it. Please correct if I am mistaken.

One post to clarify your position would be simple enough.

I statement simply stated that pedophiles are attracted to an age of development more than gender... this at present is a widely excepted position in the world of human sexual behavior. I have provided a couple of generic links to overviews on this. All of my primary materials are hardcopy books and I don't want to scan and attach hundreds of pages you don't seem to be interested in reading.

I think the items I posted clearly supported the general comments I made. They are from three different studies and are only a small tip of an iceberg relating to this sphere of study.

[Darren10]

This just dawned on me: my boys have a heterosexual mother!!! :o

[CASteinman]

One post to clarify your position would be simple enough.

Here is my position: You stated something in a strong way that I think is almost certainly not true in quite the way you said it. I challenged you.

I hope that is simple enough. I thought it would have been clear already.

Edited March 27, 2013 by CASteinman

[Bikeemikey]

Not on campouts, no. And a heterosexual female is a good role model for a young boy to aspire to grow up and seek a mate to marry and have a family. Can't say as much for a homosexual male role model.

Why?

The question here is would you be OK for an openly expressed homosexual to take care of your boy? Not me.

The scouting program is more than watching over boys. It is designed to guide them and lead them in virtue, righteousness, diligence, and do good before God, country, and fellow being. Living and acting on a lifestyle which guarantees no exaltation is hardly my idea of a role model.

Before looking at them, will they cause me to change what I just said?

If my young kid is on a camp and comes back able to tell me the sexual orientation of each of the adult leaders there then that is a sign something went wrong.

You seem to presume sexual identity an essential and unavoidable part of what will rub off one young kids as the are supervised by adults... 99% of communication with people (expect for very close friends) has nothing to do with their sex life or home life. Is there some other inherent vibe that gay people put off that makes them dangerous for youth to be around, even when the youth could have no reasonable way of knowing anything about their sexual orientation?

I would not leave my kid with people I don't trust. I trust a few people to watch my kid, some of them are homosexual. The sexual orientation of who I let watch my kids is not even a variable that is factored into the mix.

[CASteinman]

I statement simply stated that pedophiles are attracted to an age of development more than gender.

Yes, that is what you said, I do not think that has been shown and, though I suspect you think your cites show it, they actually do not. Certainly not definitively and in a way not even indirectly.

[MormonMason]

It is hard to deny that the site coming out was prophetic. Only a short time later, now, we are hearing about people from all political parties supporting gay marriage. In 2016 the presidential ballot is likely to have two supporters of gay marriage on it. Then you throw in the fact that is going before the Supreme Court today. The website was undoubtedly prophetic.

http://www.mormonsandgays.org

The second coming must be preceded by wickedness like as the days of Noah and of Sodom and Gomorrah. Widespread public support for the acts of those times was bound to precede the coming days. Those future days required growing public support for sin and self-over-God at all costs. It was inevitable.

Edited March 27, 2013 by MormonMason

[Bikeemikey]

Could you go through your extremely biased sources and find the reference that shows this to be true? For both men and women and that they "consistently" show that gender is irrelevant to them.

You requested additional information regarding my claim male and female pedophiles are attracted to age before gender... your request is quoted above...

Your request is not a CFR as the links were provided. This is a request for me to cut and paste from the links because you specifically expressed an aversion to reading the links yourself... some insinuation to the notion that they were below you and you wouldn't want to waste your time.

I have cut and pasted from the articles...

If you would like a revision in my statement I would adjust to say the following:

The current field of sexual behavior research supports the notion that most male pedophiles are attracted to age before gender. Furthermore, the research suggests there is no statistically significant difference in the percentage of hetro-sexuals and homo-sexuals are attracted to children.

I have revised my initial statement to drop the reference to women and the vast majority of research is focused on male respondents. The rest of my claim is inline with my original statement... though I have revised it with the disclaimer that this is based on the current thought in the field... this is not and never was meant to be a truth claim.

Here are a couple of more basic links for you:

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/explaining-pedophilia

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletters/Harvard_Mental_Health_Letter/2010/July/pessimism-about-pedophilia

These state that pedophilla is a mental illness defined by attraction to an age range; consistent with DSM 5 standards of diagnosis it is a disorder. It also states that pedophiles do express preference but that it is very difficult to arrive and conventional measurements of hetro-homo-bi-sexual judgements, they just don't fit. Sexual attraction to children is a fundamentally distinct form of sexuality from hetro-homo-bi-sexuality.

On the question of the relationship between homosexuality and pedophillia:

http://americamagazine.org/content/all-things/pedophilia-and-homosexuality (National Catholic Review)

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,002.htm (This is excellent primarily due to the notes section)

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00926238408405945?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%3dpubmed& (excellent article but need $$ to read)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1556756 (Another really good article - very interesting conclusions)

[EllenMaksoud]

I am really conflicted by this thread. On one hand, I am almost certain that SSA is at least partially genetic. On the other hand, I am faced with the word of Heavenly Father. I am not sure these drives can not be resisted. Perhaps it is another one of those bell curve things. It is hard for me to understand it further because due to my own physiology, I have NO sexual attraction.

Some Gay and Lesbian people you can take one look at and physically they look different. Others not so much. One would not know if they did not volunteer the information. Humans rush to judgment on so many things. Some think themselves to judge another righteously, and I wonder if Heavenly Father thinks that?

I won't harm another human being with out reason, but if I found an adult doing something to a child, they would not live through the experience. Sorry if that is too blunt, but having experienced molestation my self, I am sure I could plea temporary insanity.

The LDS church takes precautions that are at times really irksome and inconvenient, but no matter how much I do not like it, I obey.

Heavenly Father, I am so thankful to you that I lead nothing.

[CASteinman]

On one hand, I am almost certain that SSA is at least partially genetic.

As I recall, a really strong study, conducted (led) by an active and open homosexual, to prove that it was genetic, has failed to find sufficient evidence to validate that hoped for claim. I remember when the study was started - years ago, I considered it to be rigorously developed and I thought the results would be interesting either way. I did not ever see the results published but I did see a note by the researcher somewhere that his results disappointed him.

Failure to detect genetic sources does not mean that for at least some with same sex attraction it is not a choice but something that they live with. On the other hand, for some it is a choice.

There are many things which are not necessarily genetic but which people feel to be a part of their personalities for as long as they live -- which if acted upon would violate the commandments of God.

PS.. the idea that seems to be sort of moving forward is not that it is genetic per se but rather sort of formational...

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-12/being-born-gay-isnt-your-genes-its-them

It might be true.. or not. There's a lot of questions and work to know what this is all about.

Edited March 27, 2013 by CASteinman

[MormonMason]

It may also have something to do with food additives as well. Fruit flies were fed increased amounts of glutamates in their diets. As the levels increased, male fruit flies began to mate with other male fruit flies, as did the females begin mounting other females. On removing the glutamates from their diets, after a few days the flies reverted to their previous heterosexual behavior. We have been loading our foods with monosodium glutamate for quite some time now. Are we seeing the results of such as populations of gays and lesbians grow exponentially? Only further study will be able to tell us but there may well be a genetic susceptibility to increased levels of glutamates for some people.

Anecdotally, I saw something interesting in light of this. I knew a young man who began to ingest large amounts of junk foods containing monosodium glutamate in his pre-teen years. When he reached his teen years he began having homosexual encounters and could not figure out why he was so drawn to that lifestyle. In time, he began cutting the junk foods so he could lose weight. After cutting most of the foods that contained monosodium glutamate. he began losing the desire for such encounters until he finally lost all interest altogether and began expressing genuine interest in women. Was this related or just coincidence? I cannot say for certain.

But, if glutamate expression is wherein the problem lies, a cure (or at least a treatment) may well be on the horizon.

[Bikeemikey]

It may also have something to do with food additives as well. Fruit flies were fed increased amounts of glutamates in their diets. As the levels increased, male fruit flies began to mate with other male fruit flies, as did the females begin mounting other females. On removing the glutamates from their diets, after a few days the flies reverted to their previous heterosexual behavior. We have been loading our foods with monosodium glutamate for quite some time now. Are we seeing the results of such as populations of gays and lesbians grow exponentially? Only further study will be able to tell us but there may well be a genetic susceptibility to increased levels of glutamates for some people.

Anecdotally, I saw something interesting in light of this. I knew a young man who began to ingest large amounts of junk foods containing monosodium glutamate in his pre-teen years. When he reached his teen years he began having homosexual encounters and could not figure out why he was so drawn to that lifestyle. In time, he began cutting the junk foods so he could lose weight. After cutting most of the foods that contained monosodium glutamate. he began losing the desire for such encounters until he finally lost all interest altogether and began expressing genuine interest in women. Was this related or just coincidence? I cannot say for certain.

But, if glutamate expression is wherein the problem lies, a cure (or at least a treatment) may well be on the horizon.

WOW -

[CASteinman]

Your request is not a CFR as the links were provided. This is a request for me to cut and paste from the links because you specifically expressed an aversion to reading the links yourself... some insinuation to the notion that they were below you and you wouldn't want to waste your time.

No. not an aversion to the more valid site. (KOS is not valid) but rather -- information supporting your claim was not found..

And your cut and paste didn't really get there either, though I can see how you would feel that it did.

Your agenda to discuss pedophilia and homosexuality in some detail is not my interest. I had a very focused interest and I expressed it to you. The rest of your other things quoted were not interesting to me and did not relate to my question. I don't know why you keep pushing it.

As for your statement: "The current field of sexual behavior research supports the notion that most male pedophiles are attracted to age before gender"

I don't think you have come close to supporting that but I understand how you would think so. In essence I would point out that studying how people who are pedophiles are slightly less able to distinguish between boys and girls is not the same thing as demonstrating that male pedophiles are attracted to age before gender.

However, perhaps the words "supports the notion" is vague enough that it encompasses something in that general direction, without it being actually demonstrated that "that most male pedophiles are attracted to age before gender".

[MormonMason]

WOW -

Wow, indeed. I am aware of some rather interesting work in that area. Fruit flies may not be the only creatures affected by problems with glutamate expression in the brain. Fruit flies are studied precisely because of a rather large number of genes existing that we and they have in common and that function in similar ways. And, because their lifespans are so short, we can observe changes over many generations of experimentation and influence of environment over a shorter time span than that of humans. That is precisely the reason why investigational drugs and therapies often start with fruit flies before moving on to mice and rats.

[CASteinman]

But, if glutamate expression is wherein the problem lies, a cure (or at least a treatment) may well be on the horizon.

I would not quite say anything was "the" locus for the problem, but I want to make note that the current egregious hostility toward even pointing to a vapor of a fog of a wisp of a notion that perhaps maybe homosexuality might be a treatable disorder is preventing competent researchers from doing any work in this area -- pretty much at all.

Which makes it a self fulfilling prophecy -- that it is an "incurable" condition for all people afflicted.

(I happen to think it is indeed incurable for many or most, but I don't like the idea that our minds are utterly closed on the matter -- as though looking at it is a threat of some sort).

Edited March 27, 2013 by CASteinman

[EllenMaksoud]

It may also have something to do with food additives as well. Fruit flies were fed increased amounts of glutamates in their diets. As the levels increased, male fruit flies began to mate with other male fruit flies, as did the females begin mounting other females. On removing the glutamates from their diets, after a few days the flies reverted to their previous heterosexual behavior. We have been loading our foods with monosodium glutamate for quite some time now. Are we seeing the results of such as populations of gays and lesbians grow exponentially? Only further study will be able to tell us but there may well be a genetic susceptibility to increased levels of glutamates for some people.

Anecdotally, I saw something interesting in light of this. I knew a young man who began to ingest large amounts of junk foods containing monosodium glutamate in his pre-teen years. When he reached his teen years he began having homosexual encounters and could not figure out why he was so drawn to that lifestyle. In time, he began cutting the junk foods so he could lose weight. After cutting most of the foods that contained monosodium glutamate. he began losing the desire for such encounters until he finally lost all interest altogether and began expressing genuine interest in women. Was this related or just coincidence? I cannot say for certain.

But, if glutamate expression is wherein the problem lies, a cure (or at least a treatment) may well be on the horizon.

There are several things I know about food that are chilling. I can't provide scientific proof for some of it. In the early 90's I was developing lots of pain everywhere, and lots of fatigue. It was getting intolerable. I was taking 3200 mg of Motrin a day just to keep working. In retrospect, I will admit that I had no business doing that work. I am too small.

Later, I stopped all food with aspartain in it. (People with MS have reported significant improvement in symptoms after stopping with diet beverages.) After a while I cut my meat consumption by about 90%. (D&C 89?) I don't intend to become a health food nut case, but ...

[MormonMason]

There are several things I know about food that are chilling. I can't provide scientific proof for some of it. In the early 90's I was developing lots of pain everywhere, and lots of fatigue. It was getting intolerable. I was taking 3200 mg of Motrin a day just to keep working. In retrospect, I will admit that I had no business doing that work. I am too small.

Later, I stopped all food with aspartain in it. (People with MS have reported significant improvement in symptoms after stopping with diet beverages.) After a while I cut my meat consumption by about 90%. (D&C 89?) I don't intend to become a health food nut case, but ...

Actually, you may be among the group of sensitives to l-aspartic acid, one of the components of Aspartame. In the presence of l-aspartic acid the nerves can fire more rapidly, causing increased sensitivity to pain and other stimuli. My wife gets high-powered migraines when she drinks diet sodas for more than two or three days in a row.

There are those who are sensitive to phenylalanine, too. This also is one of the components of Aspartame. In some people this chemical can cause severe nervous system and central nervous system damage, causing mental retardation in children who carry two genes that cannot code for the enzymes to break down the substance, causing it to reach toxic levels. This latter group of people are the reason for the warnings posted on foods containing Aspartame.

Aspartame also has some good usages, too. Someone I know used to use it to help lower his blood glucose levels more rapidly and was able to control his diabetes without medications for a number of years when he used it in combination with a particular, niacin-based chromium supplement. I also know that it can help relieve symptoms of Sickle Cell Anemia with direct injections of the substance.

Oddly enough, it was originally developed as a blood pressure medication but it did not work so well in that department. Somebody noticed that it had a really sweet taste to it so, after FDA and other approval, the company changed directions and marketed it as an artificial sweetener. True story.

[EllenMaksoud]

Actually, you may be among the group of sensitives to l-aspartic acid, one of the components of Aspartame. In the presence of l-aspartic acid the nerves can fire more rapidly, causing increased sensitivity to pain and other stimuli. My wife gets high-powered migraines when she drinks diet sodas for more than two or three days in a row.

There are those who are sensitive to phenylalanine, too. This also is one of the components of Aspartame. In some people this chemical can cause severe nervous system and central nervous system damage, causing mental retardation in children who carry two genes that cannot code for the enzymes to break down the substance, causing it to reach toxic levels. This latter group of people are the reason for the warnings posted on foods containing Aspartame.

Aspartame also has some good usages, too. Someone I know used to use it to help lower his blood glucose levels more rapidly and was able to control his diabetes without medications for a number of years when he used it in combination with a particular, niacin-based chromium supplement. I also know that it can help relieve symptoms of Sickle Cell Anemia with direct injections of the substance.

Oddly enough, it was originally developed as a blood pressure medication but it did not work so well in that department. Somebody noticed that it had a really sweet taste to it so, after FDA and other approval, the company changed directions and marketed it as an artificial sweetener. True story.

I met with a Neurological Doctor today because of Occular Migranes, and Occipidal Headaches, and severe dizziness that I have. I wonder where this is all going?

[MormonMason]

I met with a Neurological Doctor today because of Occular Migranes, and Occipidal Headaches, and severe dizziness that I have. I wonder where this is all going?

Check for the presence of carbon monoxide in your home or apartment. These can be among the symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning, too, particularly if nausea accompanies your symptoms in the form of flu-like symptoms. You can pick up a detector in most hardware stores, if you do not already have one. If you have them and they are more than seven years old, they stop working and you will need to replace them.

Someone I know started having these kinds of headaches and migraines you describe. No medication would work for the headaches and there were no neurological issues. A few months later he and his whole family ended up in the hospital for carbon monoxide poisoning. Check your home, please. It is better to be safe than sorry but at least you will be able to rule this out if you get a detector. They range in price from 27 to 37 dollars and the ones that show you the levels are better.

The person I know got his heating system fixed and all the headache and migraine symptoms went away. Unfortunately, the residual brain damage he sustained from acute exposure to high levels of the substance is permanent. And the government usually denies disability to people who experience this and have lingering effects because most doctors on their decision panels have zero idea what combined chronic and acute exposure this substance does to people. Best to rule this out before it goes too far.

Edited March 27, 2013 by MormonMason

[EllenMaksoud]

Check for the presence of carbon monoxide in your home or apartment. These can be among the symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning, too, particularly if nausea accompanies your symptoms in the form of flu-like symptoms. You can pick up a detector in most hardware stores, if you do not already have one. If you have them and they are more than seven years old, they stop working and you will need to replace them.

Someone I know started having these kinds of headaches and migraines you describe. No medication would work for the headaches and there were no neurological issues. A few months later he and his whole family ended up in the hospital for carbon monoxide poisoning. Check your home, please. It is better to be safe than sorry but at least you will be able to rule this out if you get a detector. They range in price from 27 to 37 dollars and the ones that show you the levels are better.

The person I know got his heating system fixed and all the headache and migraine symptoms went away. Unfortunately, the residual brain damage he sustained from acute exposure to high levels of the substance is permanent. And the government usually denies disability to people who experience this and have lingering effects because most doctors on their decision panels have zero idea what combined chronic and acute exposure this substance does to people. Best to rule this out before it goes too far.

Thank you. I was thinking of Radon gas also. I moved out of there yesterday, but will warn those that remain.

[MormonMason]

Thank you. I was thinking of Radon gas also. I moved out of there yesterday, but will warn those that remain.

Radon doesn't do this. People exposed to large amounts of radon over long periods of time typically just get lung cancer. You would surprised how many homes have high levels of radon in them. It can come in from dripping water faucets, cracks in concrete floors in slab housing, and even from granite countertops. Some granites contain large amounts of uranium and traces of radium, whence comes radon. Were others there also experiencing similar symptoms? Some people are more sensitive to carbon monoxide than others, particularly if they have been chronically exposed to carbon monoxide for during their lives.

[ControlFreak]

Wow, indeed. I am aware of some rather interesting work in that area. Fruit flies may not be the only creatures affected by problems with glutamate expression in the brain. Fruit flies are studied precisely because of a rather large number of genes existing that we and they have in common and that function in similar ways. And, because their lifespans are so short, we can observe changes over many generations of experimentation and influence of environment over a shorter time span than that of humans. That is precisely the reason why investigational drugs and therapies often start with fruit flies before moving on to mice and rats.

Could you please provide those sources? Forgive my skepticism, but MSG is already a favorite scapegoat despite having no scientific studies supporting all the absurd claims and despite the fact that it is a totally natural substance found in many foods. It is one of the essential amino acids.