Www.Mormonsandgays.Org

[USU78]

Rockpond had said:

This latest controversy isn't an attack and it isn't bullying. It came from within the organization itself.

This "latest controversy" is very much in response to decades of bullying of the BSA by homosexuals and their fellowtravellers. The bullying never lets up, and never will let up. If we pull our support because of the BSA's actions, the BSA might as well close up shop: nobody else will carry the freight we carry. It will go the way of the Campfire Girls.

Edited May 17, 2013 by USU78

[Stone holm]

Rockpond had said:

This "latest controversy" is very much in response to decades of bullying of the BSA by homosexuals and their fellowtravellers. The bullying never lets up, and never will let up. If we pull our support because of the BSA's actions, the BSA might as well close up shop: nobody else will carry the freight we carry. It will go the way of the Campfire Girls.

I agree with you that if the Church pulls the plug on the BSA , I suspect it will be lights out for an American icon. As for the bullying part, am not sure it can really be seen as such by most Americans, but then when Rosa Parks decided to sit in the front of the bus, I suppose some Southerners viewed that as bullying the whites, so I can understand the mindset. But I truly am saddened that the BSA might be destroyed because it could not avoid becoming one of the last battlefields in a lost cause.

[USU78]

I agree with you that if the Church pulls the plug on the BSA , I suspect it will be lights out for an American icon. As for the bullying part, am not sure it can really be seen as such by most Americans, but then when Rosa Parks decided to sit in the front of the bus, I suppose some Southerners viewed that as bullying the whites, so I can understand the mindset. But I truly am saddened that the BSA might be destroyed because it could not avoid becoming one of the last battlefields in a lost cause.

Ms. Designated Plaintiff did not cause the surcease of Southerners, whom I, for one, am loath to demonize, given the horrible provocations my Yankee forebears imposed upon them during Reconstruction. Ms. Designated Plaintiff did not desire, as far as I know, to silence all voices but her own. Ms. Designated Plaintiff did not engage in decades of legal and other attacks on a nonprofit so that donated funds were used in defense instead of for their intended purpose: the improvement and enrichment of the lives of American youth.

Besides . . . lost causes are the only ones worth fighting for. I was raised to hold that causeway with Earl Byrthnoth despite impossible odds.

Those who would fly from the foe if alone or last aren't worth much, IMNSHO.

[Stone holm]

Ms. Designated Plaintiff did not cause the surcease of Southerners, whom I, for one, am loath to demonize, given the horrible provocations my Yankee forebears imposed upon them during Reconstruction. Ms. Designated Plaintiff did not desire, as far as I know, to silence all voices but her own. Ms. Designated Plaintiff did not engage in decades of legal and other attacks on a nonprofit so that donated funds were used in defense instead of for their intended purpose: the improvement and enrichment of the lives of American youth.

Besides . . . lost causes are the only ones worth fighting for. I was raised to hold that causeway with Earl Byrthnoth despite impossible odds.

Those who would fly from the foe if alone or last aren't worth much, IMNSHO.

Don't know your age, but what Rosa Parks help ignite makes the approach taken by the gays look pretty tame. While there may have been indignities imposed on the South during Reconstruction, I tend to go with the full text of Lincoln's Inaugural speech as pretty much summing up God's view of that whole affair. The cultural issues created by the Southern culture still plague us today.

[rongo]

But, saying that we've been "pistol-whipped by liberal activists" seems like a stretch given that this change came from within the BSA... an organization which has a SCOTUS ruling acknowledging their right to prohibit homosexuals from joining . . .

Not sure who "the narcissistic bullies that would tear down the institution" are though. The latest round of membership policy discussions is coming from inside the organization . . .

But the BSA came out the victor in those "attacks" with SCOTUS standing firmly behind them. This latest controversy isn't an attack and it isn't bullying. It came from within the organization itself . . .

You’ve stated several times now that the onus for change is coming from within BSA, not from outside. But this change is being pushed specifically from two men on the national board by the name of Stephenson and Turley (one of whom is the CEO for Home Depot). With corporate sponsorship and financial support for BSA diminishing and being further threatened, and in the current political and social climate, these and other board members (but certainly not all) are seeking to placate the governmental and social pressures threatening BSA’s income (I have it on good authority that significant pressure is also being applied by the Obama administration, in addition to and in concert with the withdrawal of corporate sponsorship). While Stephenson, Turley, et. al. are technically “within” Scouting, the real pressure affecting them is from “outside” Scouting.

Your repeated assurances that an old SCOTUS decision will definitely hold forever, worlds without end, even in the face of enormous sea changes in social mores, is touching, but naïve, in my view. This particular SCOTUS is volatile and unpredictable (from both ends of the political spectrum). I wouldn’t count on this court to protect anything dear to me.

[california boy]

You’ve stated several times now that the onus for change is coming from within BSA, not from outside. But this change is being pushed specifically from two men on the national board by the name of Stephenson and Turley (one of whom is the CEO for Home Depot). With corporate sponsorship and financial support for BSA diminishing and being further threatened, and in the current political and social climate, these and other board members (but certainly not all) are seeking to placate the governmental and social pressures threatening BSA’s income (I have it on good authority that significant pressure is also being applied by the Obama administration, in addition to and in concert with the withdrawal of corporate sponsorship). While Stephenson, Turley, et. al. are technically “within” Scouting, the real pressure affecting them is from “outside” Scouting.

Your repeated assurances that an old SCOTUS decision will definitely hold forever, worlds without end, even in the face of enormous sea changes in social mores, is touching, but naïve, in my view. This particular SCOTUS is volatile and unpredictable (from both ends of the political spectrum). I wouldn’t count on this court to protect anything dear to me.

I get that you are against the policy changes being considered by the BSA, but quite frankly this whole post is hyperbole. The board members that you reference were chosen by BSA. They weren't forced upon them. Those members obviously feel like it is in the best interest of scouting to stop discriminating against gays. If the BSA felt like they were being "bullied" by it's own board members, is all they would have to do is fire them.

While the government has always discouraged discrimination, I have not seen any recent pressure by the government that has been any different than the pressure that has been applied to scouting for decades. Perhaps you could provide some creditable examples if you really have any. Is it so hard for you to understand that some people are passionate about fighting discrimination?

I do agree that the public is pretty much over giving support to BSA because of their discrimination policies. 63% of Americans think that BSA should end it's practice of discrimination towards gays. That is almost two thirds of this country that think scouting would be better off if they quit this practice. BSA is finding itself isolated both by those who would contribute to their organization and the American population in general. Yeah that is enough pressure for them to reconsider their discrimination policies.

There is absolutely no indication that the SCOTUS is considering or even would consider changing it's ruling. And I might add, no one is asking them to. Not much credibility to anything that you are saying.

[USU78]

There is absolutely no indication that the SCOTUS is considering or even would consider changing it's ruling. And I might add, no one is asking them to. Not much credibility to anything that you are saying.

In the realm of homophile advocacy and bullyboying via the Courts, the fact that nobody's presently suing to impose yet another outrage on the American public means absolutely nothing.

[Stone holm]

In the realm of homophile advocacy and bullyboying via the Courts, the fact that nobody's presently suing to impose yet another outrage on the American public means absolutely nothing.

I really have trouble seeing the gay/lesbians as the bullies , this is a culture war in which both sides eventually became politically aggressive with the battle being fought out over marriage and the ultimate American icon the BSA. What is clear at this point is the Church is now trying to disengage from the political arena on the issue. It is hard, however, having once picked up the sword to put it back in the scabbard. But I think if any Organization is capable of doing so it is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Whether the leadership will be able to get the membership to mellow out on the aggressive politics remains to be seen.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Stone holm

[USU78]

I really have trouble seeing the gay/lesbians as the bullies , this is a culture war in which both sides eventually became politically aggressive with the battle being fought out over marriage and the ultimate American icon the BSA. What is clear at this point is the Church is now trying to disengage from the political arena on the issue. It is hard, however, having once picked up the sword to put it back in the scabbard. But I think if any Organization is capable of doing so it is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Whether the leadership will be able to get the membership to mellow out on the aggressive politics remains to be seen.

There's an old joke in college sports: Duke's cheating . . . VMI better watch out! In other words, the NCAA won't sanction the big boys, but they'll certainly beat up on the small guys who haven't the resources to protect themselves.

The cowards who employ fellowtravelling courts to impose change on an unwilling public always seem to take on school districts and nonprofits in order to impose their will. This allows them to hit above their weight class. It takes far fewer resources, in any case, to win in the courtroom what could never be won at the ballot box.

There is no need for the aggrieved to mellow out in the middle of a war. I will be there, armed and calm as can be, if and when the Vth Army Nuclear Strike Force accompanies Adam and Steve to the doors of the Salt Lake Temple.

It's only a matter of time.

Edited May 19, 2013 by USU78

[Stone holm]

There's an old joke in college sports: Duke's cheating . . . VMI better watch out! In other words, the NCAA won't sanction the big boys, but they'll certainly beat up on the small guys who haven't the resources to protect themselves.

The cowards who employ fellowtravelling courts to impose change on an unwilling public always seem to take on school districts and nonprofits in order to impose their will. This allows them to hit above their weight class. It takes far fewer resources, in any case, to win in the courtroom what could never be won at the ballot box.

There is no need for the aggrieved to mellow out in the middle of a war. I will be there, armed and calm as can be, if and when the Vth Army Nuclear Strike Force accompanies Adam and Steve to the doors of the Salt Lake Temple.

It's only a matter of time.

Really. They seem to be winning both in the political and judicial arenas, and in general the public opinion polls as well. And it does appear that the Church is leaving the political arena.

[USU78]

And it does appear that the Church is leaving the political arena.

Wishful think much?

[Stone holm]

Wishful think much?

Maybe they aren't but all signs seem to be pointing in that direction and a member of the local gay community stopped by my office last week indicating that is the buzz going round their community. You have reason to believe the Church is going to jump back into a legislative and court fight like they have in the past? As I have read they were a non presence in RI and Minnesota, has anyone heard differently?

[rockpond]

Rockpond had said:

This "latest controversy" is very much in response to decades of bullying of the BSA by homosexuals and their fellowtravellers. The bullying never lets up, and never will let up. If we pull our support because of the BSA's actions, the BSA might as well close up shop: nobody else will carry the freight we carry. It will go the way of the Campfire Girls.

In July 2012, the BSA completed a two year review of their membership policy and published their decision to keep it as is. Did "decades of bullying" somehow get compressed into the six months following that decision and the new policy proposal? No.

It's not external bullying. The BSA's hand picked board members are driving this.

What I suspect is actually upsetting to you is that the BSA wants/needs the support of organizations that are no longer willing to stand behind a heterosexual-only institution.

The BSA needs to decide if it wants other peoples' money more than it wants it's current membership policy. See? It's entirely internal.

[Stone holm]

In July 2012, the BSA completed a two year review of their membership policy and published their decision to keep it as is. Did "decades of bullying" somehow get compressed into the six months following that decision and the new policy proposal? No.

It's not external bullying. The BSA's hand picked board members are driving this.

What I suspect is actually upsetting to you is that the BSA wants/needs the support of organizations that are no longer willing to stand behind a heterosexual-only institution.

The BSA needs to decide if it wants other peoples' money more than it wants it's current membership policy. See? It's entirely internal.

I think its a little more than that. I don't think people realized the backlash that was going to happen as a result of Prop 8, and a lot of people are beginning to feel uncomfortable with the "fellowtravelers" that they are getting lumped with and getting painted with the same moral brush as. Prop 8 caused a lot of people that were not particularly sympathetic to gays to start rethinking their positions and wondering if they were going to be looked back at like some of those screaming white southerners yelling at the National Guard as they escorted the little black girls into the public schools in Little Rock, and they didn't feel real comfortable with that image. Just my speculation, but Prop 8 was one of those battles that may have cost the social conservatives the culture war. I really hate to see BSA being used as a culture war battlefield by both sides, I think that the original compromise would have allowed us and the Catholics to do our thing and would have removed BSA as a battlefield, this 2nd Compromise will not which is a shame -- there is such growing animosity towards BSA by both the left and the right in the Church, that I don't think it will last as a YM program regardless of how this war ends.

[rockpond]

I think its a little more than that. I don't think people realized the backlash that was going to happen as a result of Prop 8, and a lot of people are beginning to feel uncomfortable with the "fellowtravelers" that they are getting lumped with and getting painted with the same moral brush as. Prop 8 caused a lot of people that were not particularly sympathetic to gays to start rethinking their positions and wondering if they were going to be looked back at like some of those screaming white southerners yelling at the National Guard as they escorted the little black girls into the public schools in Little Rock, and they didn't feel real comfortable with that image. Just my speculation, but Prop 8 was one of those battles that may have cost the social conservatives the culture war. I really hate to see BSA being used as a culture war battlefield by both sides, I think that the original compromise would have allowed us and the Catholics to do our thing and would have removed BSA as a battlefield, this 2nd Compromise will not which is a shame -- there is such growing animosity towards BSA by both the left and the right in the Church, that I don't think it will last as a YM program regardless of how this war ends.

I agree, with all points.

But I'll add that it was it wasn't just California's Prop 8 in 2008. There was a similar ballot measure in Arizona where the church made similar systematic efforts to encourage financial support from members. Not sure if there were other states that year as well.

Now we're up to 11-12 states with marriage equality and you just don't hear much political action from the church. Church leadership had BYU students manning phone banks for Prop 8. So I think it is relevant to consider why those types of efforts are no longer seen.

[california boy]

I think its a little more than that. I don't think people realized the backlash that was going to happen as a result of Prop 8, and a lot of people are beginning to feel uncomfortable with the "fellowtravelers" that they are getting lumped with and getting painted with the same moral brush as. Prop 8 caused a lot of people that were not particularly sympathetic to gays to start rethinking their positions and wondering if they were going to be looked back at like some of those screaming white southerners yelling at the National Guard as they escorted the little black girls into the public schools in Little Rock, and they didn't feel real comfortable with that image. Just my speculation, but Prop 8 was one of those battles that may have cost the social conservatives the culture war. I really hate to see BSA being used as a culture war battlefield by both sides, I think that the original compromise would have allowed us and the Catholics to do our thing and would have removed BSA as a battlefield, this 2nd Compromise will not which is a shame -- there is such growing animosity towards BSA by both the left and the right in the Church, that I don't think it will last as a YM program regardless of how this war ends.

And I think it is just a little more than that as well. Because Prop 8 passed, the gay community has been able to present their point of view both in courtrooms and in the news media. Both environments require a much more accurate telling of facts than political ads on television. When the public heard both sides of the case with significant less distortion of the truth, they weighed in on equal rights and for the elimination of discrimination.

There is also one more factor. More gay people have been willing to come out of the closet. Studies have all shown that when a person understands the issue better and actually know someone who is gay, their attitudes change.

Take for example USU78 comment

The cowards who employ fellowtravelling courts to impose change on an unwilling public always seem to take on school districts and nonprofits in order to impose their will.

To anyone who is aware of this subject knows immediately that this is hyperbole. Most people are well aware that gay marriage has been won both in the ballot box, in the courts and through the legislative process as you pointed out. The MAJORITY of the public are unwilling to continue discrimination against gays. When they hear a statement like that, they know it is false and further discredits those against gay marriage as not quite being honest about their position. This happens time and time again in the news media. And they get called out for it. It certainly does not help the credibility of those opposing gay marriage does it.

Education is a very powerful tool. It may take longer, but eventually justice prevails. And that is why this issue is not going away any time soon. I also personally think it is one of the big reasons why the church stepped back from the political area, much to their credit,where way too many half truths and distortions occur.

[Stone holm]

And I think it is just a little more than that as well. Because Prop 8 passed, the gay community has been able to present their point of view both in courtrooms and in the news media. Both environments require a much more accurate telling of facts than political ads on television. When the public heard both sides of the case with significant less distortion of the truth, they weighed in on equal rights and for the elimination of discrimination.

There is also one more factor. More gay people have been willing to come out of the closet. Studies have all shown that when a person understands the issue better and actually know someone who is gay, their attitudes change.

Take for example USU78 comment

To anyone who is aware of this subject knows immediately that this is hyperbole. Most people are well aware that gay marriage has been won both in the ballot box, in the courts and through the legislative process as you pointed out. The MAJORITY of the public are unwilling to continue discrimination against gays. When they hear a statement like that, they know it is false and further discredits those against gay marriage as not quite being honest about their position. This happens time and time again in the news media. And they get called out for it. It certainly does not help the credibility of those opposing gay marriage does it.

Education is a very powerful tool. It may take longer, but eventually justice prevails. And that is why this issue is not going away any time soon. I also personally think it is one of the big reasons why the church stepped back from the political area, much to their credit,where way too many half truths and distortions occur.

It does appear that the Church is trying to disengage from the political forum on this issue whether there is unanimous agreement on the withdrawal by all GAs is unclear. I don't think we are going to see, and I certainly do not favour doctrinal accommodation, but I do think the Church has become uncomfortable being politically aggressive with only the Catholics and ultra conservative fundamentalist churches standing beside her. What my informant from the gay community is saying is the Church which is sometimes referred to as the Utah giant, is now referred to as the sleeping Utah giant. I don't think that is an accurate description, I think that now Pres Monson has found his own voice that he merely wants to concentrate on the Lord's business in a global way and spend less time on America's peculiar cultural wars.

[california boy]

Some want to blame the increased American acceptance of gay marriage on "activist judges" or some kind of brainwashing of the "gay agenda". The truth is, as more people look at this issue, the more they realize that gay marriage is an American issue. Take for example this conservative argument supporting gay marriage.

Marriage Equality is a Conservative Idea

If we are serious in our belief that every citizen is endowed by his or her creator with the right to pursue happiness, then how can this not include the freedom to marry? What could be more central to a person’s happiness? And alternatively, if we want a smaller, less obtrusive government, shouldn’t individuals, not politicians, decide who they can marry?

Maximizing freedom isn’t the only conservative value enhanced by allowing civil marriage for same-gender couples. It will promote stability, responsibility and commitment — family values that conservatives often encourage in public policy.

Marriage encourages people to think beyond their own needs, to create loving households, to build a support network so people can be cared for in sickness, old age and hard times.

Shouldn’t we want these conservative values to be available to all families? As Ted Olson, solicitor general for President George W. Bush, who has successfully argued some of the most important conservative cases before the U.S. Supreme Court, recently wrote: “The fact that individuals who happen to be gay want to share in this vital social institution is evidence that conservative ideals enjoy widespread acceptance. Conservatives should celebrate this.”

As Republicans, we respect the individual and work to empower people to live as they see fit, with as little intrusion by the government as practical. This idea is grounded in the Golden Rule to treat others as we would like to be treated.

Put yourself in your neighbor’s shoes. How would you feel if, even though you paid the same taxes, potentially served in the same military and followed the same rules as your neighbor, your government denied you the right to marry the person you love?

Among Republicans in national polls, support for marriage has increased by 50 percent in the past three years, and a growing majority of conservatives under 30 now favor this basic freedom.

[Stone holm]

Some want to blame the increased American acceptance of gay marriage on "activist judges" or some kind of brainwashing of the "gay agenda". The truth is, as more people look at this issue, the more they realize that gay marriage is an American issue. Take for example this conservative argument supporting gay marriage.

Marriage Equality is a Conservative Idea

Not sure i would agree with the label conservative, but would agree with labelling it libertarian. Log Cabin Republicans have, however, been successful in their activities.

[wenglund]

And I think it is just a little more than that as well. Because Prop 8 passed, the gay community has been able to present their point of view both in courtrooms and in the news media. Both environments require a much more accurate telling of facts than political ads on television. When the public heard both sides of the case with significant less distortion of the truth, they weighed in on equal rights and for the elimination of discrimination.

There is also one more factor. More gay people have been willing to come out of the closet. Studies have all shown that when a person understands the issue better and actually know someone who is gay, their attitudes change.

Take for example USU78 comment

To anyone who is aware of this subject knows immediately that this is hyperbole. Most people are well aware that gay marriage has been won both in the ballot box, in the courts and through the legislative process as you pointed out. The MAJORITY of the public are unwilling to continue discrimination against gays. When they hear a statement like that, they know it is false and further discredits those against gay marriage as not quite being honest about their position. This happens time and time again in the news media. And they get called out for it. It certainly does not help the credibility of those opposing gay marriage does it.

Education is a very powerful tool. It may take longer, but eventually justice prevails. And that is why this issue is not going away any time soon. I also personally think it is one of the big reasons why the church stepped back from the political area, much to their credit,where way too many half truths and distortions occur.

Up is down and down is up, and obfuscatory propaganda is "education."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Stone holm]

Up is down and down is up, and obfuscatory propaganda is "education."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Not sure I understand this comment. It seems without question that Prop 8 ultimately wound up assisting and accelerating the gay rights movement -- that should be fairly obvious even from your perspective.

[wenglund]

Not sure I understand this comment. It seems without question that Prop 8 ultimately wound up assisting and accelerating the gay rights movement -- that should be fairly obvious even from your perspective.

Judging from what you just said, I am quite confident that you didn't understand my comment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Stone holm]

Judging from what you just said, I am quite confident that you didn't understand my comment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That is very possible.

[Tacenda]

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=aef870cb7de63110VgnVCM100000176f620a____

I saw this on LDS.org. On it there are questions by different individuals pertaining to the gold plates. Questions that never even entered my mind until now. I have one to add, how did the many authors of the BoM engrave on the gold plates? What did they use? Why didn't this ever cross my mind?

[Stone holm]

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=aef870cb7de63110VgnVCM100000176f620a____

I saw this on LDS.org. On it there are questions by different individuals pertaining to the gold plates. Questions that never even entered my mind until now. I have one to add, how did the many authors of the BoM engrave on the gold plates? What did they use? Why didn't this ever cross my mind?

More importantly, why did it cross your mind on this topic