Why The Bom?

[drb226]

As I am often fond of saying, "need is relative."

If you want the church's perspective on the matter, check out the missionary manual, Preach My Gospel, which has an entire chapter entitled What is the role of the Book of Mormon?

I would pose the counter-question: why not? If God had specific interactions with a certain group of people, and those people wrote about it, then why wouldn't you want access to such material?

[Yep]

The Bible isn't "one witness". You have Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul etc. It's many, many witnesses.

Just because all their testimony is bound together into one book doesn't make it a single "witness", otherwise the Lord would have needed to bring forth another book of scripture when the Church started printing quad-bound scriptures.

The Bible wasn't one witness 2000 years ago, but today it is. Ask any non-Christian and they will respond that the Bible is one source, not multiple sources regardless of the number of authors. However, ask the same individuals and they will state the the Bible and Book of Mormon are seperate witnesses.

[rongo]

I suspect that Joseph Smith's movement could have existed just based on the restoration of keys, the introduction of new apostles and prophets, and the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants. As I recall there is a very large group from Germany (the New Apostolic Church) which has grown based very much on a restoration of the apostles. It started in Germany in the late 1870's and already has over 10 million members.

Some corrections: the New Apostolic Church was started in England, but exploded in Switzerland (it is headquarterd in Zurich). It is more popular in German-speaking countries than the American churches (LDS, JW, SDA). They have zillions of apostles, so they don't see a need for anything resembling the Quorum of the Twelve. The Stammapostel, or head apostle, is akin to our President. Among Catholics and Protestants, it is also regarded as a "cult," although not as bad as the American churches.

I served my mission in northern Germany, so I've had dealings with them.

[Buzzard]

JS explained it perfectly. The BOM is the keystone of our religion. If it wasn't for the Book of Mormon, we could all be nice Methodists. Fewer meetings, you can drink coffee and a beer, and I am told their potlucks are incredible.

However, once you have a sure conviction of the BOM, your only two options are to do your imperfect best to get with the program, or reject that testimony and be accountable for going against the further light and knowledge you have received.

[Bart Burk]

JS explained it perfectly. The BOM is the keystone of our religion. If it wasn't for the Book of Mormon, we could all be nice Methodists. Fewer meetings, you can drink coffee and a beer, and I am told their potlucks are incredible.

However, once you have a sure conviction of the BOM, your only two options are to do your imperfect best to get with the program, or reject that testimony and be accountable for going against the further light and knowledge you have received.

Not actually true. The Word of Wisdom is part of the Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Mormon has absolutely no impact on LDS not drinking coffee or beer. The Seventh Day Adventists have a much stricter health code based on the teachings of Ellen White. As far as I can tell they also have more active members.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Bart Burk

[altersteve]

The Book of Mormon has absolutely no impact on LDS not drinking coffee or beer.

I think there's an indirect impact.

[rongo]

The Seventh Day Adventists have a much stricter health code based on the teachings of Ellen White. As far as I can tell they also have more active members.

As defined how? Both the health code and activity?

[Bart Burk]

As defined how? Both the health code and activity?

The number I have seen says they have 17 million baptized members and over 25 million attending weekly. The health code says no alcohol or tobacco. In fact many Adventists I know are vegetarian. Many also avoid caffeinated drinks.

[Buzzard]

Not actually true. The Word of Wisdom is part of the Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Mormon has absolutely no impact on LDS not drinking coffee or beer. The Seventh Day Adventists have a much stricter health code based on the teachings of Ellen White. As far as I can tell they also have more active members.

I was not directly talking about the WOW. My point is that the Book of Mormon is to a great exent, our "raison d'etre". Why put up with all the rules if we are just another Christian denomination? Ah, but thanks the the BOM, we are not just another slice of Protestantism. And without the BOM, the Doctrine and Covenants, POGP, and every General Conference talk, including the Official Declarations, and the Declaration on the Family, that's just our opinion, not the word of the Lord through his living prophets and apostles.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I doubt i'll say anything new, but still want to comment:

The BoM is not the Bible....

With luv,

BD

Good point, The Mormon Bible is the KJV Bible.

[altersteve]

The number I have seen says they have 17 million baptized members and over 25 million attending weekly. The health code says no alcohol or tobacco. In fact many Adventists I know are vegetarian. Many also avoid caffeinated drinks.

I'm not really sure what your point is. First you made the claim that "Joseph Smith's movement" may have been more successful without the Book of Mormon, and now you're talking about the health code that Seventh Day Adventists follow and trying to correlate that with the fact that they have more active members than we do. So what's your point?

Edited January 28, 2013 by altersteve

[rongo]

The number I have seen says they have 17 million baptized members and over 25 million attending weekly.

Do you have any experience with them? I think those who do would be very skeptical of these numbers. I visited the SDA churches every first Saturday in my new areas on my mission in Germany, and they were far and away my favorite non-Mormons. They always invited us to eat, let us teach them, and asked wonderful questions. My grandparents served a mission in the Virgin Islands, where they are the dominant faith (SDA are most prevalent in third-world countries). Whether in small numbers, like in Europe, or large numbers, like Africa or the Caribbean, they are not even close to the pinnacle of activity David Stewart and others hold them up as. They (and JW) struggle with inactivity and apostasy, too.

The health code says no alcohol or tobacco.

I think the Mormons' does, too. And coffee and tea (black and green). Actually, the SDA I knew (church-going ones) drank wine (although others didn't ---- it was sort of like cola drinks to Mormons), so I don't know how they could be considered to be more strict from a banned substances standpoint.

In fact many Adventists I know are vegetarian.

This is selection bias, and a small sample size. Some Mormons are, too, and if all you knew were these, you might conclude that Mormons don't eat meat, either. The SDA I knew told me that they weren't supposed to eat pork, which was interesting. I don't know if its a commandment or just my small sample size.

Many also avoid caffeinated drinks.

I think a few Mormons are that way, too.

Edited January 28, 2013 by rongo

[cinepro]

I suspect LDS from different eras of Church history would answer this question very differently. I've heard it observed (and shown with data from conference talks) that Church leaders in the late 19th century and early 20th century really didn't even use the Book of Mormon that much in their talks. It was President Benson in the 1970s and 1980s who really lit a fire under our focus on the Book of Mormon.

[cdowis]

I suspect LDS from different eras of Church history would answer this question very differently. I've heard it observed (and shown with data from conference talks) that Church leaders in the late 19th century and early 20th century really didn't even use the Book of Mormon that much in their talks. It was President Benson in the 1970s and 1980s who really lit a fire under our focus on the Book of Mormon.

In my view, the BOM did not have the relevance then as it does today. We see the BOM prophecies being fulfilled in our modern time. The BOM 50% rule, for example, was prominent in the last election.

We have now reached the tipping point, and those prophecies will beome increasingly evident. (IMO, that was the 2012 Mayan prophecy being fulfilled.)

Edited January 28, 2013 by cdowis

[rongo]

While they didn't quote from it nearly as much as today, they would have been perhaps more forceful about the BoM's absolute indispensible-ness. They regarded its existence and coming forth as an indisputable sign and product of Joseph Smith's call as a prophet, completely separate from whether or not they quoted from it.

[cinepro]

While they didn't quote from it nearly as much as today, they would have been perhaps more forceful about the BoM's absolute indispensible-ness. They regarded its existence and coming forth as an indisputable sign and product of Joseph Smith's call as a prophet, completely separate from whether or not they quoted from it.

Maybe we could look at what was being said in General Conference as a guide. Here's a chart from the BYU "Conference Corpus" showing the number of times the phrase "Book of Mormon" was used in General Conference talks per decade:

[cinepro]

Here's "Moroni":

[Wanderer7]

Jacob in the Book of Mormon put it well. "Why not speak of the atonement of Christ, and attain to a perfect knowledge of him?"

[Calm]

AS for the rest, I definitely need time to unravel the many points of view and attempt a coherent and inoffensive reply

A worthy use of time and effort, I hope it goes well with your study.

[rongo]

Maybe we could look at what was being said in General Conference as a guide. Here's a chart from the BYU "Conference Corpus" showing the number of times the phrase "Book of Mormon" was used in General Conference talks per decade:

Neat graphs, cinepro! They correlate with what I have mentioned a few times ---- that the Brethren in the 1800s rarely talked about the Book of Mormon.

This doesn't mean that it was not important to them, though. In fact, Brigham Young mentioned that

I do not refer to the Book of Mormon as often as I otherwise should. --- May 25, 1873. Journal of Discourses 16:73.

And, Heber C. Kimball used Benson-esque language in applying the D&C 84 curse for neglect of the Book of Mormon:

Thirty years ago the whole Church was under condemnation because they had neglected the new and everlasting covenant, even the Book of Mormon and other revelations God had given to them, and they were driven by their enemies, for they were under condemnation at that early day of our history. How is it with us now? There are scores of this people who never look at those books. The Book of Mormon is the ensign which God has lifted up to the nations in the last days, and we are not justified when we in our feelings neglect or forsake it. ---- October 6, 1865. Journal of Discourses 11:147

There is actually a large body of material and statements from the Brethren in Journal of Discourses quoting from and dealing with the Book of Mormon (it does span roughly 34 years), but that it pales in comparison to Bible or D&C quotations is evident to anyone who reads all 26 volumes. Brigham Young discussed why he thought that was as well:

The Book of Mormon contains the same plan of salvation that the Lord requires the world to listen to, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants is given for the Latter-day Saints expressly for their everyday walk and actions. ---- September 4, 1873. Journal of Discourses 16:188

You have the Old and the New Testament, from which we can learn doctrine. You have the Book of Mormon to read, from which we can learn doctrine. You have the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, which is more especially necessary to this generation. It does not contain different doctrine to the Book of Mormon and Testaments. It is explanatory of these three books . . . ---- August 31, 1873. Journal of Discourses 16:162

There is a lot more, but the Book of Mormon in Journal of Discourses is a major section of a book series I'm writing, and I don't want to give all my good stuff on a message board . . .

[cinepro]

There is actually a large body of material and statements from the Brethren in Journal of Discourses quoting from and dealing with the Book of Mormon (it does span roughly 34 years), but that it pales in comparison to Bible or D&C quotations is evident to anyone who reads all 26 volumes. Brigham Young discussed why he thought that was as well:

There is a lot more, but the Book of Mormon in Journal of Discourses is a major section of a book series I'm writing, and I don't want to give all my good stuff on a message board . . .

Just to be clear, the BYU data does include the Journal of Discourses.

[rongo]

I know. At least, the conference talks.

[Lightbearer]

Was there any need for the Book of Mormon?

Inasmuch as it is the means of God restoring His Gospel to the earth, then it was vital. It not only gives an additional witness of Christ and His atonement, it clarifies many doctrines and ordinances of the Gospel and the Church. It proves the restoration of priesthood authority of Joseph Smith. Why would God send angelic messengers to restore the truth contained in the Book of Mormon? Because obviously something had been lost, and it took the witness of the Book of Mormon to bring it back. These words in the Book of Mormon are the words of Christ and then cannot be taken lightly:

"And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good. And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness. And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day. And now, my beloved brethren, all those who are of the house of Israel, and all ye ends of the earth, I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust: Farewell until that great day shall come. And you that will not partake of the goodness of God, and respect the words of the Jews, and also my words, and the words which shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the Lamb of God, behold, I bid you an everlasting farewell, for these words shall condemn you at the last day." (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 33:10-14)

[Damien the Leper]

With the Lynn Ridenhour thread in the News section, I think maybe I should have a more serious discussion with the Book of Mormon, again. Maybe I can be the first (?) Book of Mormon believing Episcopalian. Then again, that may not work. There are many gay Mormons who attend my parish. I wonder if I could get a Book of Mormon study group going...

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Was there any need for the Book of Mormon?

That man may live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Edited February 5, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee