Contention Over What Constitutes An Evangelical

[Paloma]

I have enjoyed the little conversations I have had with people whose names I don’t even know. Why do people want to hide behind handles? This habit really troubles me. And it makes my participation on lists, blogs and boards a painful experience, which must soon come to an end.

Dr. Midgley, it seems to me that the people who post on internet bulletin boards are largely anonymous. I think that one of the main reasons for this is security, and perhaps the desire to leave as small a footprint as possible on widely public spaces.

Calmoriah's sense that people often choose handles and avatars to reflect something about themselves is often true, I expect. My handle Paloma means dove in Spanish and represents peace to me ... and so, I hope to be a voice and bridge for understanding and peace when I interact on the internet.

[Ahab]

Easy for you to say Ahab.

When I question the propositions of the modern church, with just a few minor exceptions, it never occurs to me to think of malicious intent. When you're Catholic and you suggest that a pope, or the church with papal approval, made a mistake albeit with good intention, you are instantly accused of being Protestant. So you know better than the pope, they ask? But the Church has never, ever in her formulations taught such a rigorous conformity to every policy and proclamation of popes, that there might not be respectful discussion about it--until now. We are supposed to muzzle any misgivings we might have, even in the face of the disastrous fruits the modern church and her hierarchy are producing (see Vienna above). As much as some might think that the modern papacy has happily liberalized in some respects, it is more reactionary than ever in its policy toward those of her children who are compelled by facts to dissent from some of those same new liberalisms.

3DOP

Regardless of which church/Church we are members of, our goal as disciples of Jesus Christ is to learn directly from God through him and those we know God has inspired. Ain't that right?

Aligning ourselves with a church/Church is something we should do when we feel God is motivating us to do it. It's not as if we're supposed to give our devotion to a church/Church at all costs. What matters most is that we woship God in spirit and in truth.

You're doing fine, I think, even though you're not as far along in the process as I believe I am right now. Someday I hope we'll both be united in Christian brotherhood while knowing all of the same things, and not only knowing but doing what we know we should do.

[3DOP]

You're doing fine, I think, even though you're not as far along in the process as I believe I am right now. Someday I hope we'll both be united in Christian brotherhood while knowing all of the same things, and not only knowing but doing what we know we should do.

Thank you Ahab. I agree wholeheartedly with your hopes for unity in Christian brotherhood.

[Louis Midgley]

What I am experiencing is a kind of kindly, gentle outpouring of good will, comity and civility and also, alas, faith. This I think is not all that common on the internet. It pleases me to think that my tiny little frail effort to make Latter-day Saints more familiar with evangelical theology, if not living faith, which is something quite different, has made possible a genuine communication between those of different Christian traditions.

When Roger Olson came to BYU, which he did twice, he was treated with respect. I enjoyed meeting him. I have admired his historical works. I was aware of and have now twice commented on the fact that he still will not see beneath the typical conservative Protestant hostility to my faith what is really the focal point of my faith. But I am still fond of him and appreciate and recommend his scholarship. And I have made this same point in several ways in things I have published. Everyone will, I hope, see my admiration for N. T. Wright. I think that Latter-day Saints can and should learn from him, just as we have from C. S. Lewis, despite the fact that he probably did not think highly of Joseph Smith, if he had ever heard of him.

I must say that, unlike Roger Olson, I have, as far as it is possible, not only witnessed a Russian Orthodox and Roman Catholic mass but done so as an act of my own worship. The least sense of worship that I have ever felt in a Christian gathering was at the gig meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention that was held years ago in Salt Lake City. Most of one afternoon was devoted to bashing my faith, and while the speeches or sermons were going on there was much loud talking and laughing and chatter. It was much like an American political convention that begins with prayer before the slogan ring out and the nasty rhetoric flows. I have, with a group called Brethren, experienced genuine worship of the Lord both in Lancaster, PA, and in New Zealand.

[go_utes01]

Why exactly can't we all be "united in Christian brotherhood" now?

[Ahab]

Why exactly can't we all be "united in Christian brotherhood" now?

We can be. All it requires is being baptized into Christ, correctly, by those who have the Lord's authority to perform that ordinance for us.

At this point Rorie sees the need for the priesthood. Now he just needs to find out how really has it and then get baptized, correctly. We're not even in the Christian brotherhood together yet, and much less united, even though we're both brothers as sons in the spirit of our Father in heaven.

[Calm]

What I am experiencing is a kind of kindly, gentle outpouring of good will, comity and civility and also, alas, faith. This I think is not all that common on the internet. It pleases me to think that my tiny little frail effort to make Latter-day Saints more familiar with evangelical theology, if not living faith, which is something quite different, has made possible a genuine communication between those of different Christian traditions.

This experience happens on enough occasions here I will never be able to walk away from the board as too many have been adopted into my extended family and it would be like shutting the door on the face of my sister or brother to turn my back on it. It is remarkable to me that this can happen in such a venue and even in the midst of a less than civil discussion because there are those who are committed to not only defend the faith and God, but live it as if God were part of the conversation.

My daughter teases me about my best friends I have never met...my hope is one day we all will be able to meet as a truly united family....and what conversations we will have then...or perhaps we will just sit in silence and peace, too full of joy to need to say anything.

Edited January 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[go_utes01]

We can be. All it requires is being baptized into Christ, correctly, by those who have the Lord's authority to perform that ordinance for us.

At this point Rorie sees the need for the priesthood. Now he just needs to find out how really has it and then get baptized, correctly. We're not even in the Christian brotherhood together yet, and much less united, even though we're both brothers as sons in the spirit of our Father in heaven.

We need to be baptized in order to be united in brotherhood? I guess we are talking about different things.

Edited January 11, 2013 by go_utes01

[Ahab]

We need to be baptized in order to be united in brotherhood. I guess we are talking about different things.

I'm talking about what it takes to make two people, two men, brothers in Christ, and then on top of that, united.

What were you talking about?

[go_utes01]

I'm talking about what it takes to make two people, two men, brothers in Christ, and then on top of that, united.

What were you talking about?

If two people believe in Christ (even if their individual beliefs are not identical, but then again whose are?), and recognize that they are brothers, in a spiritual sense, then I believe they can be united in brotherly love (i.e. Christian love).

[Calm]

We're not even in the Christian brotherhood together yet, and much less united, even though we're both brothers as sons in the spirit of our Father in heaven.

I just cannot imagine any valid measurement that excludes Rory from the Christian brotherhood, authorised baptism or not. His own baptism has brought him closer to God as a Sacrament of his Faith

[Calm]

If two people believe in Christ (even if their individual beliefs are not identical, but then again whose are?), and recognize that they are brothers, in a spiritual sense, then I believe they can be united in brotherly love (i.e. Christian love).

Amen

 Matt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

[3DOP]

Why exactly can't we all be "united in Christian brotherhood" now?

'go_utes01',

Hi.

We are united in sentiment. That is a very significant beginning which must not be underestimated. Without amiability, discussion is always fruitless because we naturally prefer to disagree with those we dislike. Most schisms and breaches of unity are less about doctrine and more about lack of amiability and lovelessness. A thousand years ago the East and West had sadly learned to despise each other, and so minor disagreements about doctrine appeared as gaping wounds. Today, few people know why. I know. Those who loved in that period were outnumbered by those who hated. Love is never content with intellectual assent alone. Love seeks to overcome disagreements about revealed truth without compromising the truth as perceived. Speaking for myself, I understand that complete unity must extend to going to church together eventually.

3DOP

[Ahab]

What I am experiencing is a kind of kindly, gentle outpouring of good will, comity and civility and also, alas, faith. This I think is not all that common on the internet.

It is common here, although we can get a little fussy with each other too, sometimes. Most of us here recognize the fact that we're brothers and sisters, as children of our Father in heaven, even if we're not brothers and sisters in Christ, and those who don't recognize that fact usually get treated as brothers and sisters anyway by those who do recognize it often enough to make this place feel like a "family" place.

Brothers and sisters don't always get along, though, and sometimes our worst behavior comes out.

It pleases me to think that my tiny little frail effort to make Latter-day Saints more familiar with evangelical theology, if not living faith, which is something quite different, has made possible a genuine communication between those of different Christian traditions.

Understanding someone else's mindset can be very helpful when trying to teach them something, but it's not really necessary to teach someone the truth. What's more important is to be nice and loving even if we can't manage to teach someone something.

I'm glad to see that you already understand what I'm talking about and you are good at being nice to others.

[3DOP]

Cal,

You correctly cite the quote about two or three gathered. But we do not gather. We worship separately. I appreciate you taking a little umbrage with Ahab for questioning my baptism. But he is correct. Our differing views are an impediment to unity. To have full unity, to gather together, we need to resolve such questions.

[Ahab]

If two people believe in Christ (even if their individual beliefs are not identical, but then again whose are?), and recognize that they are brothers, in a spiritual sense, then I believe they can be united in brotherly love (i.e. Christian love).

All of us are already brothers and sisters by virtue of being children of our Father in heaven. I recognize that. I'm talking about a Christian brotherhood that comes by accepting Jesus Christ as our Father, in addition to our (other) Father in heaven (the one we all can call Father), at which point we are then brothers through our new relationship with Jesus Christ.

It may not seem like much of a difference, but there is a difference. And yes we can both love each other as Christ loves us, even now.

[Mudcat]

Mudcat:

I am pleased that you posted on this thread. I have enjoyed our little exchange. I think we agree on our evaluation of Al Mohler. I find his Calvinism (and his drift back toward fundamentalism) strange. This rise of Calvinist divines in the SBC runs against the traditional grain, does it not? Was this shift in SBC seminary ministerial instruction, which seems to me as an outsider to have been facilitated by choices of the leadership of those seminaries, what also fueled the efforts of Paige Paterson and others involved in the hostile takeover of the SBC that Nancy Ammerman and others have described in considerable detail? There is much that I simply do not know about the internal politics of the SBC. Now I ramble. I have enjoyed meeting you. God bless.

Sure Louis, enjoying the discussion as well. Quite some time back the Particular Baptists (Calvinists) merged with the much larger group of General Baptists in some respects. Since that time there has always been around 10% or so that held to Calvinism. I think it was a different sort of Calvinism than what we see today, is a lot closer to what you would see espoused by Spurgeon rather than Sproul or some such. In general, my take on it is that if you have a person who interprets the Bible along the lines of what Calvin did, you get a compatibilist of some sort. For those that seem to interpret the Bible and hold Calvins theology as a creed or guideline or somesuch you seem to wind up much closer to determinism.

I think you are quite right that the shift is due to a change in seminary leadership and those who guided it. My own two cents as to the shift is probably different than most. I think the embracing of Calvinism by some has more to do with addressing Biblical criticism. Treating the Bible as infalliable, inerrant and so forth is much easier in pressupositional paradigm that embraces determinism. God has decreed His word will stand forever, so the Calvinist can be more dismissive of statements that challenge that notion in regards to potential errancy.

The notion of the freedom of mans will, gives plenty of room for giving validity to Biblical criticism. So, IMO, I think Calvinism seemed like the easiest solution. The best way to change ideology begins with the next generation, so seminaries were a likely choice.

On Patterson, I didn't perceive of a hostile takeover in the SBC, per se. There was a fracturing in Texas in the late 90's. I think Patterson and others have worked very hard to suppress a rise in liberalism and were fairly effective in their efforts that way, the Texas split was a likely result given the conflicting theology involved. Some say it was about politics others theology, I imagine the truth of that is in the middle somewhere. The only feathers, I think he's ruffled lately has been a "Plan of Salvation" type revision that he and a number of SBC pastors signed off on. It's impetus was directed against 5 point Calvinists, in an attempt to flush them out. Calvinism isn't popularly held with most SBC congregations and the pastors that are 5 point Calvinists are careful to be subtle about it.

It was quite a joke in respects, because the party that crafted that statement was likely a closet semi-Pelagian.. or at least the document was. They came out with it at the same conference that Fred Luter was elected as President, if I remember rightly and were attacked from both Calvinists and also Arminian leaning pastors. That plan fizzled for obvious reasons, though a few of the prideful signers attempted to back the statement rather than offer an agreeable revision.

In the grand scheme of things, as a member of a Southern Baptist church, I can tell you that from a local perspective the goings on of the SBC is very distant thing for us and we don't pay as much attention to it as we should. It has to do with our basis of congregational leadership, I think it's one of things that has kept us out of the hot water I see some of the Protestant denominations getting in, in regards to the homosexual agenda among other things. If the SBC leaders want the SBC to change direction it has to persuade rather than command.

All the best,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Why exactly can't we all be "united in Christian brotherhood" now?

I think the glass is always going to seem a bit dim this side of the veil, but that shouldn't stop us from trying.

[Ahab]

Cal,

You correctly cite the quote about two or three gathered. But we do not gather. We worship separately. I appreciate you taking a little umbrage with Ahab for questioning my baptism. But he is correct. Our differing views are an impediment to unity. To have full unity, to gather together, we need to resolve such questions.

I'm glad to see that you understand me and that you have no harsh feelings against me.

The word church actually refers to an assembly which has been called together... and usually considered to have been called together by God... and yet we do not gather together in the same assembly, or church/Church. For me that's because I know which church/Church God has called me into, as his church/Church. You probably think the same way, and yet we do not agree. Someday I hope we both will agree on that and not only be members of the same assembly, or church/Church, but also growing to become more and more like Jesus Christ and our Eternal Father in heaven. I do believe it can still happen, even though we're not in the same assembly or church/Church at this point.

[3DOP]

I think the glass is always going to seem a bit dim this side of the veil, but that shouldn't stop us from trying.

Well said Mudcat. Long time no see by the way. Happy Christmas to you and a Merry New Year and all that!

Look at us, all lovey dovey together and we can't figure out how to fix things. Pathetic we are! It will take a miracle. A genuine miracle. I believe it is coming (promises of Our Lady of Fatima), and maybe even soon, that all people of good will in Christ shall be enabled by the good God to agree and to see things the same way. It doesn't hurt one bit to try to make preparations like you say, in the meantime, that in some small way can be considered a contribution to the effort!

3DOP

Edited January 11, 2013 by 3DOP

[Louis Midgley]

Someone asks why we can't just get along? Or, put his way, why we can't have a Christian brotherhood now? Well, for one thing a simple little temptation that we all experience and surrender to--pride. That English word is ambiguous. Is it wrong to be proud of a child who has done a good and excellent thing? This is not the sin that we are warned to avoid. The pride that kills community in Greek is either a noun meaning to "boast" or "vainglory," or a different noun meaning "haughty," the verbal form of which I think means "puffed up" or "high minded" and hence the verb meaning "lifted up" (1 Timothy 3:6 KJV) or "puffed up" (in the RV). These ideas are related to being "high minded." I have known people who I wondered if they could manage to get their head through a door, and I think some of you have met such Professors. All this can be put another way: can we count the ways of sin? The Devil has more than one arrow in his quiver.

What led Peter the Great to have billions of logs cut and then be pounded into the mud of the delta of the Nava River so that he could have a huge army of serfs build that magnificent city. If those serfs and nobles were not equal in material things, could they possibly be equal in spiritual things? So the question answers itself with the terrible word sin.

[Paloma]

My daughter teases me about my best friends I have never met...my hope is one day we all will be able to meet as a truly united family....and what conversations we will have then...or perhaps we will just sit in silence and peace, too full of joy to need to say anything.

Calmoriah, you know C.S. Lewis' book, "Surprised by Joy"?

That's how I felt when I read these words of yours. I was totally surprised and overwhelmed to feel my eyes fill with tears and heart fill with joy!

Such love and truth and power in what you envisage here!

[Ahab]

Someone asks why we can't just get along? Or, put his way, why we can't have a Christian brotherhood now? Well, for one thing a simple little temptation that we all experience and surrender to--pride.

Yep, pride's a big obstacle, the type you are talking about. Who can know they have it without feeling ashamed?

I once thought I had it when it was confidence in what God had taught me, and now I know to be on guard against it.

I think it's amazing how I can do stupid things, sometimes, and yet know so much that God has taught me.

One of these days I'm going to be as good as I know I can be, but I think it will take quite a while to be that good.

[Tacenda]

Well said Mudcat. Long time no see by the way. Happy Christmas to you and a Merry New Year and all that!

Look at us, all lovey dovey together and we can't figure out how to fix things. Pathetic we are! It will take a miracle. A genuine miracle. I believe it is coming (promises of Our Lady of Fatima), and maybe even soon, that all people of good will in Christ shall be enabled by the good God to agree and to see things the same way. It doesn't hurt one bit to try to make preparations like you say, in the meantime, that in some small way can be considered a contribution to the effort!

3DOP

I think the Lord or God, wants that for us. Maybe everyone is getting the same message from Him and we are just thinking it was just for us. Just like when a parent tells their child that they're the favorite child. But says that to each of his/her child.

[Ahab]

I think the Lord or God, wants that for us. Maybe everyone is getting the same message from Him and we are just thinking it was just for us. Just like when a parent tells their child that they're the favorite child. But says that to each of his/her child.

So he tells you that you're his favorite child, too?

Hmm, well, okay, as long as I am still one of them.