ERayR Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Are you saying members are leaving because of people like Rob and their websites? Is that what you mean by "have you seen the stats recently?".May I answer? Yes some people are leaving the LDS church because of Rob and others like him but what Juliann is referring to is the decrease in Christianity in general and in Protestan Christianity in particular.
bluebell Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Are you saying members are leaving because of people like Rob and their websites? Is that what you mean by "have you seen the stats recently?".I think she means that people are leaving religion in general. According to many articles, people are getting tired of the hate and judgmentalness that they perceive to be coming from protestant religions in regards to those who disagree with them. In response, many are deciding that no Christian religion (or any religion in some regards) is correct.A lot of the arguments that Rob and others use against mormonism can just as easily be used by athiests and agnostics against their own. In many ways Rob and those like him are cutting off their nose to spite their face, because of the harm they are doing to their own cause, and i believe that is what Juliann meant.
Rob Bowman Posted December 31, 2012 Author Posted December 31, 2012 jwhitlock,Hey bud, I'm here. You may direct your comments about what I said to me personally.You wrote:Amid the continuing misdirection by Rob, this was actually rather interesting.It appears that Rob disagrees with the statement that Satan is the father of all apostasy, which is rather surprising to me. Perhaps Rob thinks that God is the father of all apostasy, or that there is really no such thing as apostasy. The Bible doesn't seem to treat apostasy as something coming from God, or as something that isn't a problem, so maybe Rob has some kind of un-biblical belief that causes him to take issue with this rather common sense and clear statement.These comments are yet another example of failing to listen. Of course Satan is the father of all apostasy. I totally agree with that statement. Here's the point, which anyone actually reading through the discussion should already know: Juliann is pilloring me because IRR's website includes statements expressing this very viewpoint. So I simply point out that Mormons and evangelicals agree that apostate or heretical forms of Christianity are in some sense the result of Satanic deception. Our disagreement, obviously, is over which religions fit that description. Juliann's whining about our website being so mean and nasty because we actually say that heretical sects of Christianity like the LDS Church fit this description is hypocritical, because her church's official website and scriptures teach the same thing, except it claims to be the only true church and ALL other Christian churches are Satanically inspired.
jwhitlock Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 I didn't know that Mormons were being actively persecuted by other churches in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Please enlighten me as to how things were so much worse then between Mormons and other churches than they are now. Frankly, I think your comment is simply dishonest, to use your own words.I give you the same challenge I gave Juliann, but now as an official call for references. CFR that the LDS Church has officially repudiated its earlier position that all churches other than itself are part of the church of the devil.You need to take a look at your history a little bit more closely, Rob. The polarization of the 19th and early 20th centuries didn't just suddenly go away. I'm old enough to remember some rather active persecution by other churches during every one of those decades.Given your SOP, I know it's probably hard for you not to abuse the concept of CFR, especially when you misrepresent our own scriptures and quotes from church leaders as straw men, and then make a demand for some kind of official repudiation. It doesn't work that way.However, I'll tell you what I'll do. You quoted McConkie as follows: The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God.” (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38.)What exactly did you find objectionable about this quote? McConkie tells us exactly what qualifies any organization to be part of what he's talking about when he says "which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God.” Do you really think that's false? I certainly don't.Instead, you seem to want to expand his meaning beyond what McConkie clearly meant and tell us that he instead is saying that it includes all Christian churches of any sort. That's the kind of dishonesty that you engage in, Rob, when you misrepresent us and our doctrines. You do the same thing with 1 Nephi, expanding its intent in a way designed to build a straw man that you can then tear down.You're committing some major blunders here, Rob. 3
juliann Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 I give you the same challenge I gave Juliann, but now as an official call for references. CFR that the LDS Church has officially repudiated its earlier position that all churches other than itself are part of the church of the devil.I must have missed the official position that all churches are the church of the devil. 1
juliann Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Rob likes really old quotes. Are George Q. Cannon and B.H. Roberts out of date enough to be perfect candidates for you, Rob?
Tacenda Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 (edited) May I answer? Yes some people are leaving the LDS church because of Rob and others like him but what Juliann is referring to is the decrease in Christianity in general and in Protestan Christianity in particular.Might I change the subject for two seconds? I believe there is a huge problem with the youth of all faiths turning to seclurism. The LDS church has instituted a new manual for SS that will be awesome. The youth will have more input than at any other time. Teachers will not be able to just grab the manual a few moments before the lesson and give it right out of the book. They're going to have to work way ahead of time and involve the class. Maybe even have youth teach. The youth will have to rely more than ever on their scriptures. Similar to the affect "Preach My Gospel" has had. Really converting to the gospel before they face adulthood and going out into the world.I think all Christians everywhere should come together for this fight. Edited December 31, 2012 by Tacenda
juliann Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Juliann is pilloring me because IRR's website includes statements expressing this very viewpoint. So I simply point out that Mormons and evangelicals agree that apostate or heretical forms of Christianity are in some sense the result of Satanic deception. You have such a way with words...when they come back to bite you and you have to go into damage control. A bad tree will never produce good fruit. Larceny, theocracy, adultery and Mountain Meadows were the first fruits of Mormonism.
Stargazer Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Stargazer,You wrote:This is a Mormon discussion board, and I thought the topic was an interesting and pertinent one here. I am not expecting the discussion here to resolve the problem. Obviously, I was correct about the topic being interesting: look at the flurry of posts it has generated in a very short time.OK, that makes sense. I didn't really think you thought it would help your situation on FB, but on the other hand, if you thought it was Mormons in particular who were troubling your FB page, then interactions with Mormons over it is of course worth some ink. Or bits, whatever.I've found the discussion interesting, as evidenced by most post-count here in this topic.To be clear, vis-a-vis Facebook, I find the place to be highly annoying. I mostly stay away from it.
ERayR Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Tacend just one small example of the misdirection Rob and friends go to is this quote from Andrew Skinner “Latter-day Saints hardly need to be told that the father of all apostasy is Satan.” Andrew C. Skinner, “Apostasy, Restoration, and Lessons in Faith,” Ensign, Dec. 1995.He has spun it to suit his needs. If one had not read the article you might think Bowman's analysis was correct. However, reading the article Brother Skinner is warning of apostasy from within the fold. 1
Rob Bowman Posted December 31, 2012 Author Posted December 31, 2012 That's two individuals who have flat-out refused to provide a reference in answer to a CFR. I await the appropriate action.
jwhitlock Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 These comments are yet another example of failing to listen. Of course Satan is the father of all apostasy. I totally agree with that statement. Here's the point, which anyone actually reading through the discussion should already know: Juliann is pilloring me because IRR's website includes statements expressing this very viewpoint. So I simply point out that Mormons and evangelicals agree that apostate or heretical forms of Christianity are in some sense the result of Satanic deception. Our disagreement, obviously, is over which religions fit that description. Juliann's whining about our website being so mean and nasty because we actually say that heretical sects of Christianity like the LDS Church fit this description is hypocritical, because her church's official website and scriptures teach the same thing, except it claims to be the only true church and ALL other Christian churches are Satanically inspired.Part of your problem, Rob, is that you fail to understand the scriptural doctrine of "by their fruits you shall know them". There are a number of churches out there that claim to be Christian, but whose fruits indicate who their real master is. Westboro Baptist, for instance, is one of those churches. There are many others out there just like them. They exist and they continue to exist.But they aren't representative of all churches. There are many out there that do much good and with whom we as LDS work well together. I suspect you really, really hate that when it happens, given your comments about Mouw.Officially as a church, we have always been willing to work with those of other faiths and organizations on a constructive basis. We have also responded forcefully to those who sought to destroy us, identifying them for what they really are.Your problem is that you want to make a generalization about what we really believe and what our attitudes really are. It doesn't seem to matter that I personally know a pastor here where I live who wanted to start up a church in Salt Lake City decades ago, and who was given donated land by the LDS church, along with a sizable amount of money to get started. He spoke very highly of President McKay, who was instrumental in helping him. It also doesn't seem to matter to you that we actively cooperate with other churches in relief work. There are many other examples of us working with other churches, something that we wouldn't be doing if we really believed what you have misrepresented us as believing.We don't teach our members to hate those of other faiths. Our church leaders have specifically addressed this a number of times in conference, saying that it's inappropriate. You misrepresent us when you ignore all of that and instead demand CFRs for countering your out-of-context, and misinterpreted quotes.On the other hand, what do your sites teach? Given the comments that Julann has gleaned from those sites, and what I have read on those sites, you really, really want people to have a negative impression of not only The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but its members as well. You foster hatred against us. You misrepresent us. You have done as much on this thread, and then you deny doing it.Your fruit is pretty rotten.
ERayR Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 You have such a way with words...when they come back to bite you and you have to go into damage control.He does have dazzling footwork doesn't he? It reminds one of Muhammad Ali (aka Cassius Clay). However when he can't dazzle with his footwork he does have a tendency to baffle with __.
jwhitlock Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 That's two individuals who have flat-out refused to provide a reference in answer to a CFR. I await the appropriate action.I responded to you, Rob. I also noted that your demand for a CFR was misplaced, since it was based on your misrepresentation of our beliefs.Hardly a flat-out refusal, isn't it.
Saints Alive Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 That's two individuals who have flat-out refused to provide a reference in answer to a CFR. I await the appropriate action.See below, I think jwhitlock provided a reasonable response to your CFR, anxiously awaiting your response.You need to take a look at your history a little bit more closely, Rob. The polarization of the 19th and early 20th centuries didn't just suddenly go away. I'm old enough to remember some rather active persecution by other churches during every one of those decades.Given your SOP, I know it's probably hard for you not to abuse the concept of CFR, especially when you misrepresent our own scriptures and quotes from church leaders as straw men, and then make a demand for some kind of official repudiation. It doesn't work that way.However, I'll tell you what I'll do. You quoted McConkie as follows:What exactly did you find objectionable about this quote? McConkie tells us exactly what qualifies any organization to be part of what he's talking about when he says "which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God.” Do you really think that's false? I certainly don't.Instead, you seem to want to expand his meaning beyond what McConkie clearly meant and tell us that he instead is saying that it includes all Christian churches of any sort. That's the kind of dishonesty that you engage in, Rob, when you misrepresent us and our doctrines. You do the same thing with 1 Nephi, expanding its intent in a way designed to build a straw man that you can then tear down.You're committing some major blunders here, Rob.
juliann Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 So I simply point out that Mormons and evangelicals agree that apostate or heretical forms of Christianity are in some sense the result of Satanic deception. Our disagreement, obviously, is over which religions fit that description. .Very clever footwork, but no....you do not get to include me in your destruction of religion. I do not consider any religion to be the result of Satanic deception. That is a reprehensible thing to say but you evidently really get off on it. Don't you ever include me in your attack on religion.Here is a proposition for you, Rob. I'm willing to say that your religion is good.... along with all the others. I'm going to say that the world would be much better served if everyone was in some religion or another (and living its tenets). Will you do the same? 3
juliann Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 That's two individuals who have flat-out refused to provide a reference in answer to a CFR. I await the appropriate action.Oh, but I gave you two names and asked if they would do and here you are still in deep denial.
jwhitlock Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Very clever footwork, but no....you do not get to include me in your destruction of religion. I do not consider any religion to be the result of Satanic deception. That is a reprehensible thing to say but you evidently really get off on it. Don't you ever include me in your attack on religion.Here is a proposition for you, Rob. I'm willing to say that your religion is good.... along with all the others. I'm going to say that the world would be much better served if everyone was in some religion or another (and living its tenets). Will you do the same?Ah, hope springs eternal in true Christians.
ERayR Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Very clever footwork, but no....you do not get to include me in your destruction of religion. I do not consider any religion to be the result of Satanic deception. That is a reprehensible thing to say but you evidently really get off on it. Don't you ever include me in your attack on religion.Here is a proposition for you, Rob. I'm willing to say that your religion is good.... along with all the others. I'm going to say that the world would be much better served if everyone was in some religion or another (and living its tenets). Will you do the same?Side Note: I agree with you Juliann. When I had one of my children rebelling against "Dad's" church I told them to find a church where they could be comfortable and follow its precepts.
Rob Bowman Posted December 31, 2012 Author Posted December 31, 2012 (edited) Juliann,You wrote:Very clever footwork, but no....you do not get to include me in your destruction of religion. I do not consider any religion to be the result of Satanic deception. That is a reprehensible thing to say but you evidently really get off on it.First, I don't in any sense "get off on" saying that some religion is the result of Satanic deception. There is another slanderous comment. You have made many such comments and apparently you can get away with it here.Second, if you don't agree with the statement that some religions are the result of Satanic deception, then you disagree with your own scriptures and prophets and apostles. So evidently they are guilty of making "reprehensible" statements as well, according to Juliann. Are you perhaps a prophetess?You wrote:Here is a proposition for you, Rob. I'm willing to say that your religion is good.... along with all the others. I'm going to say that the world would be much better served if everyone was in some religion or another (and living its tenets). Will you do the same?Many if not most religions do much good. In terms of moral conduct and civic responsibility Mormons rank higher than most. The world is a better place for the influence of life-affirming, moral religions. However, religions that preach a false gospel and a false conception of God also do irreparable harm. What people believe matters. God is real; teaching falsehoods about him has consequences. Edited December 31, 2012 by Rob Bowman
juliann Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Hey, Rob....can you help me find this on your website? I'm sure you wouldn't omit something this official....and it happened decades ago, the way you like it! First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, issued on 15 February 1978:"The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. . . ."Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come. . . ."Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are the sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father." 1
jwhitlock Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 Many if not most religions do much good. In terms of moral conduct and civic responsibility Mormons rank higher than most. The world is a better place for the influence of life-affirming, moral religions. However, religions that preach a false gospel and a false conception of God also do irreparable harm. What people believe matters. God is real; teaching falsehoods about him has consequences.By what authority do you claim to be the arbiter of what is false and satanic?
Rob Bowman Posted December 31, 2012 Author Posted December 31, 2012 juliann,You asked:Rob likes really old quotes. Are George Q. Cannon and B.H. Roberts out of date enough to be perfect candidates for you, Rob?First of all, every single one of the quotations I have provided, except for quotations from LDS scriptures, are far more recent than Cannon and Roberts. So this comment about me liking "really old quotes" is just ridiculous diversion and probably an excuse to use older quotations because you don't have any recent ones that show the LDS Church has changed its position.Second, I am open to you presenting any quotations from any Mormon sources you like.
Rob Bowman Posted December 31, 2012 Author Posted December 31, 2012 jwhitlock,You wrote:By what authority do you claim to be the arbiter of what is false and satanic?I don't make that claim. Stop attributing to me claims I don't make. Knock it off!
Rob Bowman Posted December 31, 2012 Author Posted December 31, 2012 Juliann,I read your quotation...which had a lot of ellipses (...)...and didn't see anything that denied that at least some churches were the work of Satanic deception.Hey, Rob....can you help me find this on your website? I'm sure you wouldn't omit something this official....and it happened decades ago, the way you like it!
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