Mysticism And Mormon Spirituality

[volgadon]

Prove it without using circular definitions please.

I am an outside observer by your definition. I also accept that there is a possibility that what you say (if I am understanding you correctly) is true at its core though some of the language you use is too ambiguous to understand and determine if logical or not.

Have I not just disproved your belief that the truth is completely unbelievable to outsiders?

If he says you are wrong, then you are right.

[MiserereNobis]

I don't know if you follow B Hamblin's blog but he has been posting some stunning pictures of European cathedrals in which complex theology is "preached" in pictures and symbols with absolutely no words. It is a kind of language all on its own.

I'll have to check out his blog -- thanks for the reference. I've been reading much lately on the symbolism of medieval gothic cathedrals. It is fascinating and awesome. The medieval mind's obsession with symbolism and allegory is quite appealing to me.

Since we've had a few "mystical" poems presented, I might as well add one by greatest American mystical troubadour (ha). Enjoy!

Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son ?

And where have you been my darling young one ?

I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains

I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways

I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests

I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans

I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard

It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what did you see, my blue eyed son ?

And what did you see, my darling young one ?

I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it

I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it

I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin'

I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin'

I saw a white ladder all covered with water

I saw ten thousand takers whose tongues were all broken

I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard

It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

And what did you hear, my blue-eyed son ?

And what did you hear, my darling young one ?

I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a warnin'

I heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world

I heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a-blazin'

I heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin'

I heard one person starve, I heard many people laughin'

Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter

Heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard

And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, who did you meet my blue-eyed son ?

Who did you meet, my darling young one ?

I met a young child beside a dead pony

I met a white man who walked a black dog

I met a young woman whose body was burning

I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow

I met one man who was wounded in love

I met another man who was wounded and hatred

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard

And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

And what'll you do now, my blue-eyed son ?

And what'll you do now my darling young one ?

I'm a-goin' back out 'fore the rain starts a-fallin'

I'll walk to the deepths of the deepest black forest

Where the people are a many and their hands are all empty

Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters

Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison

Where the executioner's face is always well hidden

Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten

Where black is the color, where none is the number

And I'll tell and think it and speak it and breathe it

And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it

Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin'

But I'll know my songs well before I start singin'

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard

It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

[volgadon]

I'll have to check out his blog -- thanks for the reference. I've been reading much lately on the symbolism of medieval gothic cathedrals. It is fascinating and awesome. The medieval mind's obsession with symbolism and allegory is quite appealing to me.

Since we've had a few "mystical" poems presented, I might as well add one by greatest American mystical troubadour (ha). Enjoy!

Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son ?

And where have you been my darling young one ?

I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains

I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways

I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests

I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans

I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard

It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what did you see, my blue eyed son ?

And what did you see, my darling young one ?

I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it

I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it

I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin'

I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin'

I saw a white ladder all covered with water

I saw ten thousand takers whose tongues were all broken

I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard

It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

And what did you hear, my blue-eyed son ?

And what did you hear, my darling young one ?

I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a warnin'

I heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world

I heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a-blazin'

I heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin'

I heard one person starve, I heard many people laughin'

Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter

Heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard

And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, who did you meet my blue-eyed son ?

Who did you meet, my darling young one ?

I met a young child beside a dead pony

I met a white man who walked a black dog

I met a young woman whose body was burning

I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow

I met one man who was wounded in love

I met another man who was wounded and hatred

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard

And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

And what'll you do now, my blue-eyed son ?

And what'll you do now my darling young one ?

I'm a-goin' back out 'fore the rain starts a-fallin'

I'll walk to the deepths of the deepest black forest

Where the people are a many and their hands are all empty

Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters

Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison

Where the executioner's face is always well hidden

Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten

Where black is the color, where none is the number

And I'll tell and think it and speak it and breathe it

And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it

Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin'

But I'll know my songs well before I start singin'

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard

It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

He was of course heavily influenced by folk songs, just like this song.

[mathonihah]

I must admit I find his investment in this discussion here to be somewhat baffling for someone who considers the highest commandment is to love one another, superceding if I understand him correctly even the commandment to love God (well, it is one and the same commandment in his view so one can apparently disregard it at least). There seems to be so many other things he could be doing that would more effectively demonstrate love for others.

Why do you think that his loving others is incompatible with engaging in this discussion? Jesus loved others, but also engaged in debates with the Pharisees. It is ultimately for him to decide whether engaging in this discussion is compatible with his loving others or not. If he thinks that it is, who are we to judge? We can only decide for ourselves whether engaging in this discussion is worthwhile for us or not, and let him make that decision for himself, rather than try to make that decision for him. Don't you think?

Edited December 3, 2012 by mathonihah

[mathonihah]

Precisely speaking, if something is 100% unbelievable, you are incapable of believing it. It is not logical.

I think he said possible. Possible is not quite the same as believable. Something can be 100% unbelievable, but still possible.

[mfbukowski]

Back in the late sixties I collected a who bag full; probably more than a hundred. HA-ha!

I would bet that if push comes to shove and things get really grim, those will be far more valuable than greenbacks especially because they are recognizable as silver- try to buy a loaf of bread with a piece of paper or even an ingot of who-knows-what in a really grim situation- I don't know but I would rather have real US certified silver in my hand of a known value!

[pogi]

I would bet that if push comes to shove and things get really grim, those will be far more valuable than greenbacks especially because they are recognizable as silver- try to buy a loaf of bread with a piece of paper or even an ingot of who-knows-what in a really grim situation- I don't know but I would rather have real US certified silver in my hand of a known value!

Yes, but if things get really difficult, silver will be equally valueless. The only things worth anything will be food, water, clothing, shelter, and family. Food storage and a garden is priceless!

Edited December 3, 2012 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

So none=not one=no one, right? The math adds up. (Actually that is an identity function, not addition but I was speaking metaphorically, not precisely.)

Indeed that is the entire point wasted on this guy- people DO speak metaphorically and the scriptures especially do so

[mfbukowski]

Then your "scholar" is a quack.

He does not understand that there are people here (you) who are more qualified than his "scholar".

In philosophy circles "scholar" is virtually an insult- it is one who digs through others ideas because they cannot come up with their own.

[mfbukowski]

I did not at all ignore the bible question:

reference to multiple Gods is a figurative reference

Ah then who gets to pick which is figurative and which is not? This is absurd. You know the difference but only you get to pick which is which? This is not only going no where it is going backwards.

[mfbukowski]

Squaring the Circle is an ancient past time.

Yawn.

Squares are not circles by definition. It is just a linguistic convention of definitions it has nothing to do with truth. What we MEAN by "circle" includes "not square" and vice versa. We conventionally DEFINE such terms as "true" but doing so has little purpose

[mfbukowski]

I accept as possible that five minutes ago never existed.

Oh please let that be true. Then I never wasted so much time on this.

[mfbukowski]

I would bring that to his attention and ask for an explanation.

You have obviously not read the whole 1000 plus posts and I don't blame you.

Been there done that- this guy will just say that he is the expert and will explain nothing because we are stupid and he knows all. How do you talk to someone like that?

[mfbukowski]

I'll have to check out his blog -- thanks for the reference. I've been reading much lately on the symbolism of medieval gothic cathedrals. It is fascinating and awesome. The medieval mind's obsession with symbolism and allegory is quite appealing to me.

Since we've had a few "mystical" poems presented, I might as well add one by greatest American mystical troubadour (ha). Enjoy!

Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son ?

And where have you been my darling young one ?

I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains

I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways

I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests

I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans

I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard

It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what did you see, my blue eyed son ?

And what did you see, my darling young one ?

I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it

I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it

I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin'

I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin'

I saw a white ladder all covered with water

I saw ten thousand takers whose tongues were all broken

I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard

It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

And what did you hear, my blue-eyed son ?

And what did you hear, my darling young one ?

I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a warnin'

I heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world

I heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a-blazin'

I heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin'

I heard one person starve, I heard many people laughin'

Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter

Heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard

And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, who did you meet my blue-eyed son ?

Who did you meet, my darling young one ?

I met a young child beside a dead pony

I met a white man who walked a black dog

I met a young woman whose body was burning

I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow

I met one man who was wounded in love

I met another man who was wounded and hatred

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard

And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

And what'll you do now, my blue-eyed son ?

And what'll you do now my darling young one ?

I'm a-goin' back out 'fore the rain starts a-fallin'

I'll walk to the deepths of the deepest black forest

Where the people are a many and their hands are all empty

Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters

Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison

Where the executioner's face is always well hidden

Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten

Where black is the color, where none is the number

And I'll tell and think it and speak it and breathe it

And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it

Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin'

But I'll know my songs well before I start singin'

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard

It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

I love it and have since it first came out. Before he went electric and sold out

[peteolcott]

If you aren't open to the strong possibility of your being wrong, then you yourself have a closed mind.

Referring to prior analogy:

Once you yourself travel to a distant planet and live among the space aliens for many years, then you will see how plausible your statement is and how easily you could deny this experience.

[peteolcott]

I must admit I find his investment in this discussion here to be somewhat baffling for someone who considers the highest commandment is to love one another, superceding if I understand him correctly even the commandment to love God (well, it is one and the same commandment in his view so one can apparently disregard it at least). There seems to be so many other things he could be doing that would more effectively demonstrate love for others.

What I am doing is focusing on utterly ridding the whole world of all hatred.

[peteolcott]

Why do you think that his loving others is incompatible with engaging in this discussion? Jesus loved others, but also engaged in debates with the Pharisees. It is ultimately for him to decide whether engaging in this discussion is compatible with his loving others or not. If he thinks that it is, who are we to judge? We can only decide for ourselves whether engaging in this discussion is worthwhile for us or not, and let him make that decision for himself, rather than try to make that decision for him. Don't you think?

Thanks for your support. Yes refraining from judging others is another aspect of the pinnacle primacy of Love.

President Thomas S. Monson

My earnest prayer is that you will have the courage required to refrain from judging others...

[pogi]

Pete claims pure knowledge.

Others claim he is confused/delusional, and mock him.

Pete admits that he can't prove it, except they experience it for themselves.

Others demand proof and provide evidence as to why he is wrong.

Where does this story sound familiar?

Pete, you are wasting your time here unless you encourage them to find out for themselves and teach them how. They obviously are not going to listen to you, so you are just wasting your time here.

Others, you are wasting your time here unless you "know" that he is wrong, and encourage Pete to find out and teach him how. He is obviously not going to listen to you, so you are just wasting your time here.

I claim ignorance and am wasting my time here!

[MiserereNobis]

Pete claims pure knowledge.

Others claim he is confused/delusional, and mock him.

Pete admits that he can't prove it, except they experience it for themselves.

Others demand proof and provide evidence as to why he is wrong.

Where does this story sound familiar?

Pete, you are wasting your time here unless you encourage them to find out for themselves and teach them how. They obviously are not going to listen to you, so you are just wasting your time here.

Others, you are wasting your time here unless you "know" that he is wrong, and encourage Pete to find out and teach him how. He is obviously not going to listen to you, so you are just wasting your time here.

I claim ignorance and am wasting my time here!

I figure that any thread that includes an e.e. cummings poem and a Bob Dylan song is not a complete waste of time...

Edited December 3, 2012 by MiserereNobis

[pogi]

I figure that any thread that includes an e.e. cummings poem and a Bob Dylan song is not a complete waste of time...

Don't forget the Grateful Dead lyrics as well as some Jimmy Hendrix lyrics from volgadon. Darned hippies!!! I could have better spent my time watching The Wizard of Oz while listening to The Dark Side of the Moon.

[peteolcott]

Pete claims pure knowledge.

Others claim he is confused/delusional, and mock him.

Pete admits that he can't prove it, except they experience it for themselves.

Others demand proof and provide evidence as to why he is wrong.

Where does this story sound familiar?

Pete, you are wasting your time here unless you encourage them to find out for themselves and teach them how. They obviously are not going to listen to you, so you are just wasting your time here.

Others, you are wasting your time here unless you "know" that he is wrong, and encourage Pete to find out and teach him how. He is obviously not going to listen to you, so you are just wasting your time here.

I claim ignorance and am wasting my time here!

That sounds reasonable to me. Buddha would only teach those that were very receptive.

The key thing that I have taught as the most fundamental mandatory prerequisite to beginning to see these same things first-hand for themselves is to utterly discard belief / disbelief systems and start by thinking through the possibilities. Anything is possible that can not be completely proven impossible entirely on the basis of the meaning of the words.

When seeking the truth of mysticism gullibility is far more useful than skepticism. In fact skepticism is a great impediment to realizing the truth of these things.

Edited December 4, 2012 by peteolcott

[Calm]

Yes refraining from judging others is another aspect of the pinnacle primacy of Love.

I am curious. Do you believe you have refrained from judging others when you state they have not comprehended or whatever?

Hestia found one of the comments I was thinking of:

The only way to the actual truth is with a mind that is completely open, it seems that there are none of those here.

Edited December 4, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Pete claims pure knowledge.

Others claim he is confused/delusional, and mock him.

There is a difference between mocking someone and pointing out that when he claims he is communicating in a precise and logical fashion, he is not actually doing so.

[mfbukowski]

Referring to prior analogy:

Once you yourself travel to a distant planet and live among the space aliens for many years, then you will see how plausible your statement is and how easily you could deny this experience.

Yeah I saw that movie too.

[Hestia]

The only way to the actual truth is with a mind that is completely open, it seems that there are none of those here.

You need to review the board guidelines. No preaching and no judging others' if you want to remain on board.