Mysticism And Mormon Spirituality

[peteolcott]

Under this logic the bible is self-contradictory and therefore should be discarded. You have already seen verses which describe other Gods.

So what's the answer to that Mr Spock?

This answer is way beyond the ability of most to comprehend:

Hindu Maya basically says that reality is fictional, thus reference to multiple Gods is a figurative reference because reference to anything in physical reality is a figurative reference, because reality is fictional.

[mfbukowski]

Anyone reading Montague needs a corrective dose of Dylan Thomas.

LOL! Absolutely! How about ee cummings???

I can see the sparks flying and the computers blowing up!

anyone lived in a pretty how town

by E. E. Cummings

anyone lived in a pretty how town

(with up so floating many bells down)

spring summer autumn winter

he sang his didn't he danced his did

Women and men(both little and small)

cared for anyone not at all

they sowed their isn't they reaped their same

sun moon stars rain

children guessed(but only a few

and down they forgot as up they grew

autumn winter spring summer)

that noone loved him more by more

when by now and tree by leaf

she laughed his joy she cried his grief

bird by snow and stir by still

anyone's any was all to her

someones married their everyones

laughed their cryings and did their dance

(sleep wake hope and then)they

said their nevers they slept their dream

stars rain sun moon

(and only the snow can begin to explain

how children are apt to forget to remember

with up so floating many bells down)

one day anyone died i guess

(and noone stooped to kiss his face)

busy folk buried them side by side

little by little and was by was

all by all and deep by deep

and more by more they dream their sleep

noone and anyone earth by april

wish by spirit and if by yes.

Women and men(both dong and ding)

summer autumn winter spring

reaped their sowing and went their came

sun moon stars rain

[Nathair/|\]

LOL! Absolutely! How about ee cummings???

I can see the sparks flying and the computers blowing up!

anyone lived in a pretty how town

by E. E. Cummings

anyone lived in a pretty how town

(with up so floating many bells down)

spring summer autumn winter

he sang his didn't he danced his did

Women and men(both little and small)

cared for anyone not at all

they sowed their isn't they reaped their same

sun moon stars rain

children guessed(but only a few

and down they forgot as up they grew

autumn winter spring summer)

that noone loved him more by more

when by now and tree by leaf

she laughed his joy she cried his grief

bird by snow and stir by still

anyone's any was all to her

someones married their everyones

laughed their cryings and did their dance

(sleep wake hope and then)they

said their nevers they slept their dream

stars rain sun moon

(and only the snow can begin to explain

how children are apt to forget to remember

with up so floating many bells down)

one day anyone died i guess

(and noone stooped to kiss his face)

busy folk buried them side by side

little by little and was by was

all by all and deep by deep

and more by more they dream their sleep

noone and anyone earth by april

wish by spirit and if by yes.

Women and men(both dong and ding)

summer autumn winter spring

reaped their sowing and went their came

sun moon stars rain

If we're doing that:

Amergin, Bard of the Milesians, lays claim to the Land of Ireland

I am a stag: of seven tines,

I am a flood: across a plain,

I am a wind: on a deep lake,

I am a tear: the Sun lets fall,

I am a hawk: above the cliff,

I am a thorn: beneath the nail,

I am a wonder: among flowers,

I am a wizard: who but I

Sets the cool head aflame with smoke?

I am a spear: that roars for blood,

I am a salmon: in a pool,

I am a lure: from paradise,

I am a hill: where poets walk,

I am a boar: ruthless and red,

I am a breaker: threatening doom,

I am a tide: that drags to death,

I am an infant: who but I

Peeps from the unhewn dolmen, arch?

I am the womb: of every holt,

I am the blaze: on every hill,

I am the queen: of every hive,

I am the shield: for every head,

I am the tomb: of every hope.

Song of Amergin translated by Robert Graves, from The White Goddess, Faber and Faber Limited, 24 Russell Square London WC1. It appears here under the principle of Fair Use.

[mfbukowski]

Considering the absolute difficulty of two people having a conversation both walking away from that conversation with an identical understanding of what just happened, honestly I have a hard problem to believe that Montague has anything to do with 'real life'.

Try to do marriage counseling and you will instantly see how true this is.

[mfbukowski]

This answer is way beyond the ability of most to comprehend:

Hindu Maya basically says that reality is fictional, thus reference to multiple Gods is a figurative reference because reference to anything in physical reality is a figurative reference, because reality is fictional.

Yep. This is pretty close to classic Platonism also. We are all shadows of the Forms which are the only reality.

But unfortunately you totally avoided the Bible question.

Edited December 3, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

If we're doing that:

Song of Amergin translated by Robert Graves, from The White Goddess, Faber and Faber Limited, 24 Russell Square London WC1. It appears here under the principle of Fair Use.

There is no room here whatsoever for any kind of parable or simile or metaphor- or any symbol in Montague It's a ridiculous position to apply to anything religious.

[Calm]

none == not any == nothing

Not very precise......

[volgadon]

LOL! Absolutely! How about ee cummings???

I can see the sparks flying and the computers blowing up!

anyone lived in a pretty how town

by E. E. Cummings

anyone lived in a pretty how town

(with up so floating many bells down)

spring summer autumn winter

he sang his didn't he danced his did

Women and men(both little and small)

cared for anyone not at all

they sowed their isn't they reaped their same

sun moon stars rain

children guessed(but only a few

and down they forgot as up they grew

autumn winter spring summer)

that noone loved him more by more

when by now and tree by leaf

she laughed his joy she cried his grief

bird by snow and stir by still

anyone's any was all to her

someones married their everyones

laughed their cryings and did their dance

(sleep wake hope and then)they

said their nevers they slept their dream

stars rain sun moon

(and only the snow can begin to explain

how children are apt to forget to remember

with up so floating many bells down)

one day anyone died i guess

(and noone stooped to kiss his face)

busy folk buried them side by side

little by little and was by was

all by all and deep by deep

and more by more they dream their sleep

noone and anyone earth by april

wish by spirit and if by yes.

Women and men(both dong and ding)

summer autumn winter spring

reaped their sowing and went their came

sun moon stars rain

Forgot about him. Brilliant.

To begin at the beginning:

It is spring, moonless night in the small town, starless

and bible-black, the cobblestreets silent and the hunched,

courters'-and-rabbits' wood limping invisible down to the

sloeblack, slow, black, crowblack, fishingboatbobbing sea.

The houses are blind as moles (though moles see fine to-night

in the snouting, velvet dingles) or blind as Captain Cat

there in the muffled middle by the pump and the town clock,

the shops in mourning, the Welfare Hall in widows' weeds.

And all the people of the lulled and dumbfound town are

sleeping now.

Hush, the babies are sleeping, the farmers, the fishers,

the tradesmen and pensioners, cobbler, schoolteacher,

postman and publican, the undertaker and the fancy woman,

drunkard, dressmaker, preacher, policeman, the webfoot

cocklewomen and the tidy wives. Young girls lie bedded soft

or glide in their dreams, with rings and trousseaux,

bridesmaided by glowworms down the aisles of the

organplaying wood. The boys are dreaming wicked or of the

bucking ranches of the night and the jollyrodgered sea. And

the anthracite statues of the horses sleep in the fields,

and the cows in the byres, and the dogs in the wetnosed

yards; and the cats nap in the slant corners or lope sly,

streaking and needling, on the one cloud of the roofs.

You can hear the dew falling, and the hushed town breathing.

Only your eyes are unclosed to see the black and folded

town fast, and slow, asleep. And you alone can hear the

invisible starfall, the darkest-beforedawn minutely dewgrazed

stir of the black, dab-filled sea where the Arethusa, the

Curlew and the Skylark, Zanzibar, Rhiannon, the Rover,

the Cormorant, and the Star of Wales tilt and ride.

Listen. It is night moving in the streets, the processional

salt slow musical wind in Coronation Street and Cockle Row,

it is the grass growing on Llaregyb Hill, dewfall, starfall,

the sleep of birds in Milk Wood.

Listen. It is night in the chill, squat chapel, hymning in

bonnet and brooch and bombazine black, butterfly choker and

bootlace bow, coughing like nannygoats, sucking mintoes,

fortywinking hallelujah; night in the four-ale, quiet as a

domino; in Ocky Milkman's lofts like a mouse with gloves;

in Dai Bread's bakery flying like black flour. It is to-night

in Donkey Street, trotting silent, With seaweed on its

hooves, along the cockled cobbles, past curtained fernpot,

text and trinket, harmonium, holy dresser, watercolours

done by hand, china dog and rosy tin teacaddy. It is night

neddying among the snuggeries of babies.

Look. It is night, dumbly, royally winding through the

Coronation cherry trees; going through the graveyard of

Bethesda with winds gloved and folded, and dew doffed;

tumbling by the Sailors Arms.

Time passes. Listen. Time passes.

Come closer now.

[Calm]

There is no room here whatsoever for any kind of parable or simile or metaphor- or any symbol in Montague It's a ridiculous position to apply to anything religious.

How can language or even math be said to exist without symbols?

[mfbukowski]

How can language or even math be said to exist without symbols?

Good question!

I think it is more a question of how precise symbols can be. I don't know if you follow B Hamblin's blog but he has been posting some stunning pictures of European cathedrals in which complex theology is "preached" in pictures and symbols with absolutely no words. It is a kind of language all on its own.

In the temple we learn symbolically with no words needed- or at least the words supplying only the most minimal of outline while the meanings and layers of meaning are just plain astounding.

You look at Kabbalah where a few letters symbolize worlds upon worlds of theology- the Tetragrammaton itself and all that symbolizes

I don't know how a self-styled "mystic" who supposedly understands ineffable experience could actually think that Montague has any application to religious language.

How could he? Seriously?

This whole thing is so incongruous as to be beyond belief. I am really thinking we are getting trolled here big time.

Kabbalah

See also: Kabbalah and Hasidic philosophy

Kabbalistic tradition holds that the correct pronunciation is known to a select few people in each generation, it is not generally known what this pronunciation is. In late kabbalistic works the Tetragrammaton is sometimes referred to as the name of Havayah—הוי'ה, meaning "the Name of Being/Existence." This name also helps when one needs to refer specifically to the written Name; similarly, "Shem Adonoot," meaning "the Name of Lordship" can be used to refer to the spoken name "Adonai" specifically.

As explained by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto,^[88] the tetragrammaton "unfolds" in accordance with the intrinsic nature of its letters, "in the same order in which they appear in the Name, in the mystery of ten and the mystery of four." Namely, the upper cusp of the Yod is Arich Anpin and the main body of Yod is and Abba; the first Hei is Imma; the Vav is Ze`ir Anpin and the second Hei is Nukvah. It unfolds in this aforementioned order and "in the mystery of the four expansions" that are constituted by the following various spellings of the letters:

ע"ב/`AV : יו"ד ה"י וי"ו ה"י, so called "`AV" according to its gematria value ע"ב=70+2=72.

ס"ג/SaG: יו"ד ה"י וא"ו ה"י, gematria 63.

מ"ה/MaH: יו"ד ה"א וא"ו ה"א, gematria 45.

ב"ן/BaN: יו"ד ה"ה ו"ו ה"ה, gematria 52.

Luzzatto summarizes, "In sum, all that exists is founded on the mystery of this Name and upon the mystery of these letters of which it consists. This means that all the different orders and laws are all drawn after and come under the order of these four letters. This is not one particular pathway but rather the general path, which includes everything that exists in the Sefirot in all their details and which brings everything under its order."^[88]

Another parallel is drawn between the four letters of the Tetragrammaton and the Four Worlds: the י is associated with Atziluth, the first ה with Beri'ah, the ו with Yetzirah, and final ה with Assiah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton

I know there are some experts on this who post here- this of course is only wikipedia.

I can't see how Montague could even begin to characterize this type of thing.

Edited December 3, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Forgot about him. Brilliant.

To begin at the beginning:...

Gosh to have that ability! Simply AMAZING! Thanks!

[volgadon]

Gosh to have that ability! Simply AMAZING! Thanks!

Then there is Utah Watkins and the Salt Lake Farm.

[volgadon]

Good question!

I think it is more a question of how precise symbols can be. I don't know if you follow B Hamblin's blog but he has been posting some stunning pictures of European cathedrals in which complex theology is "preached" in pictures and symbols with absolutely no words. It is a kind of language all on its own.

In the temple we learn symbolically with no words needed- or at least the words supplying only the most minimal of outline while the meanings and layers of meaning are just plain astounding.

You look at Kabbalah where a few letters symbolize worlds upon worlds of theology- the Tetragrammaton itself and all that symbolizes

I don't know how a self-styled "mystic" who supposedly understands ineffable experience could actually think that Montague has any application to religious language.

How could he? Seriously?

This whole thing is so incongruous as to be beyond belief. I am really thinking we are getting trolled here big time.

http://en.wikipedia..../Tetragrammaton

I know there are some experts on this who post here- this of course is only wikipedia.

I can't see how Montague could even begin to characterize this type of thing.

Montague couldn't even begin to imagine the kabbalistic tropes of exile and redemption present in the vowel marks, let alone the letters themselves.

[mfbukowski]

Montague couldn't even begin to imagine the kabbalistic tropes of exile and redemption present in the vowel marks, let alone the letters themselves.

Yeah- that's what I mean. Every portion of the punctuation has layers of meaning. What would he do with that?

I never saw it in the old days and I still don't.

Edited December 3, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

I understand the appeal of precision, always knowing what is right, what is wrong, what the limits are, etc., of being able to provide definite proof that all educated enough to understand it agree with. I love the sense of everything falling precisely in its place with math. There is an elegance and glory in it.

It is the ambiguity of language however that lends it its elegance and beauty....and pure fun.

Turning the language that best expresses the depth and variety and uncertainty of humanity into a dead language of machines.....not appealing to me at all, even with my obsessive compulsion to write in such a way that people understand.

Edited December 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[Bill Hamblin]

none == not any == nothing

Even if you're right, it doesn't change the Hebrew, which is the only relevant question.

I was simply noting that even the Jacobean English doesn't say what you think it says.

[mfbukowski]

This answer is way beyond the ability of most to comprehend:

Hindu Maya basically says that reality is fictional, thus reference to multiple Gods is a figurative reference because reference to anything in physical reality is a figurative reference, because reality is fictional.

Good then so is this thread and we can stop now.

[Bill Hamblin]

Did you know that any old silver quarter pre-1964- with no numismatic value- just for silver content- is now worth around 5 bucks?

Where's a time machine when you need one?

Back in the late sixties I collected a who bag full; probably more than a hundred. HA-ha!

[Bill Hamblin]

No one that has not had this experience directly first-hand for themselves has the sufficient basis to determine whether or not Union-with-God is not also equally apt. Very few buddhists ever have this experience, thus most are unqualified to speak.

And how, precisely, do you know whether anyone here has had such a direct first-hand experience? "Those who know don't speak; those who speak don't know."

It is possible, of course, that some have had such experiences and simply don't care to discuss them on a message board with non-initiates.

At any rate, if your ideas are so incomprehensible to the rest of us, why are you bothering telling us about it?

[CV75]

This answer is way beyond the ability of most to comprehend:

In the immortal words of Robert McCloskey in Too Many Doughnuts: "I gawt it!"

[peteolcott]

Wow. You are a radical fundamentalist. Kinda scary actually.

Do you speak other languages? Have you ever done any translations whatsoever?

It is scary that I think that the nuclear bombs dropping everywhere is not going to happen?

[peteolcott]

It says right there, see "no."

This is an etymology dictionary, and it is saying that none is derived from not one, and not is derived from no.

[volgadon]

This is an etymology dictionary, and it is saying that none is derived from not one, and not is derived from no.

So, "not one" and "no one" are the same thing, right?

[Calm]

It is scary that I think that the nuclear bombs dropping everywhere is not going to happen?

And what of the alternative translations?

New International Version (©1984)

because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now--and never to be equaled again....

New Living Translation (©2007)

For there will be greater anguish in those days than at any time since God created the world. And it will never be so great again......

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

It will be a time of misery that has not happened from the beginning of God's creation until now, and will certainly never happen again......

Weymouth New Testament

For those will be times of suffering the like of which has never been from the first creation of God's world until now, and assuredly never will be again;

Your interpretation amounts to "there will be suffering that will never be/happen"....which is nonsense.

[Calm]

This is an etymology dictionary, and it is saying that none is derived from not one, and not is derived from no.

So none=not one=no one, right? The math adds up. (Actually that is an identity function, not addition but I was speaking metaphorically, not precisely.) Edited December 3, 2012 by calmoriah