A Problem With Emma Smith

[why me]

I found the following paragraphs from Uncle Dale interesting. I think that he made a great point with the following post that he made on a different forum about Emma and polygamy and her denial of it. He said:

What is inexcusable, is the fact that she supplied the support

necessary to start up a church based upon such lies. It can

be argued that she mainly served in a passive role in this

respect -- that she seldom evangelized for the RLDS. But

I see the same lies repeated by William Smith and by.

Katherine Smith Salisbury, for the RLDS. It was a religious

conspiracy. At times it was a conspiracy of silence, and at

other times it was a conspiracy of falsehoods --but it all

worked together to establish a false church, palming off

false doctrines upon believing members.

That is what I find inexcusable. Today even the topmost

leaders in Community of Christ are beginning to admit

openly that the founders of their sect lied about the

basic doctrines of the Church from the 1850s onward. I

guess that counts as progress.

As for Emma, I would caution any student of Mormon

History not to take her words at face value, no matter

how pious-sounding or plausible her testimony may be.

Same goes for that of Apostle William Smith and his

sister Katherine. Their lies amount to human evil.

UD

Personally, I think that he is right. Why would Emma allow an entire church to be started on a principle that she knew was a lie? Why would she allow another church to be started that would claim that Joseph never practiced polygamy. My take on it is simple. Emma allowed this lie to get out of control and she couldn't take it back. So the web grew and grew and Emma could no longer control it and a new church was formed based on a lie.

Edited October 25, 2012 by why me

[thesometimesaint]

I'm more charitable to Emma. She and Joseph were hounded from state to state. Many of her children died as children or shortly after being born. Her Joseph and his brother were murdered in cold blood. Through her rocky relationship with Brigham Young she was left with few resources when the bulk of the Saints went west. I think she had had enough pain, and finally just gave up the fight.

[CA Steve]

Sounds like Emma was the original NOM.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Huh.

Not impressed with the evil speaking of the widow of the Prophet, and the woman the Lord called the "Elect Lady".

But ya'll do what you want.

[DBMormon]

Personal i see her in great esteem called to go through things I would have thrown the white flag up much earlier on!!!

[why me]

Huh.

Not impressed with the evil speaking of the widow of the Prophet, and the woman the Lord called the "Elect Lady".

But ya'll do what you want.

I don't think that I was speaking evil of her and neither was Uncle Dale. However, he did make a great point: a church was founded based on a lie: that Joseph did not practice polygamy. She could have told the truth about her husband's practice of polygamy but instead she allowed her son to become its first prophet. And this is a little problematic.

[why me]

Sounds like Emma was the original NOM.

I don't think so. But I do think that she let this lie get out of hand and suffered for it. She knew that people who believed in that church believed a lie. But she could not retract her statements about Joseph not being a polygamist.

[CA Steve]

I don't think that I was speaking evil of her and neither was Uncle Dale. However, he did make a great point: a church was founded based on a lie: that Joseph did not practice polygamy. She could have told the truth about her husband's practice of polygamy but instead she allowed her son to become its first prophet. And this is a little problematic.

How is it "a little problematic"? Wasn't their stance on polygamy (as evidenced by how BookofMormonLuvr believes) foundational to the RLDS Church? It seems like their admission about polygamy and the loss of the blood line pretty much defined their transition to the Community of Christ.

[why me]

How is it "a little problematic"? Wasn't their stance on polygamy (as evidenced by how BookofMormonLuvr believes) foundational to the RLDS Church? It seems like their admission about polygamy and the loss of the blood line pretty much defined their transition to the Community of Christ.

Well, of course it is problematic. I was being diplomatic. But she was no NOM. And that was my point. She was a believer in her husband who lied about polygamy and let the lie get out of hand. She could have stopped the new church from being formed and she didn't. For whatever reason, she coujld not retract her statement about polygamy. But I do think that she suffered because of it.

[Stargazer]

Huh.

Not impressed with the evil speaking of the widow of the Prophet, and the woman the Lord called the "Elect Lady".

But ya'll do what you want.

I don't see it as "evil speaking". I see it as criticism. Are you saying that Emma Smith is above criticism? I wouldn't go so far, not even Joseph was above criticism. And while the Lord called her "Elect Lady", this doesn't make her spotless and perfect. To be "elect" is to be chosen, but the chosen may fall. Think of the places in scripture where it is said that even the very elect may be deceived.

[why me]

I don't see it as "evil speaking". I see it as criticism. Are you saying that Emma Smith is above criticism? I wouldn't go so far, not even Joseph was above criticism. And while the Lord called her "Elect Lady", this doesn't make her spotless and perfect. To be "elect" is to be chosen, but the chosen may fall. Think of the places in scripture where it is said that even the very elect may be deceived.

I think that you are right. My point was in the OP was that I never thought about Emma allowing a new church to be formed based on a lie that Joseph never practiced polygamy when she knew the truth. And to allow it to continue when people believed in the lie and joined the Reorganized church was very unfortunate for those who were members of the RLDS. And this would include herself and her son as first president of the RLDS church.

Edited October 25, 2012 by why me

[CA Steve]

What do we know about her participation in the organization of the RLDS church?

Edited October 25, 2012 by CA Steve

[RobertAC]

As I understand, Emma's role was limited. Hers and Joseph's son eventually accepted the leadership of the RLDS (Community of Christ). I would be surprised if polygamy was the big issue that caused the division.

[Rivers]

I think the memories of Joseph practicing polygamy were so painful to her that she just wanted to block them out of her mind and pretend they never happened.

The authors of Emma Smith's biography Mormon Enigma write that code language was used to keep polygamy a secret. For example, eternal or celestial marriage was differentiated from polygamy. Perhaps Emma still had that sort of mind set.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Rivers

[why me]

As I understand, Emma's role was limited. Hers and Joseph's son eventually accepted the leadership of the RLDS (Community of Christ). I would be surprised if polygamy was the big issue that caused the division.

I think that emma did not want to go west because of her bad feelings for brigham and the problem that she experienced with him over the property issue. But she also just didn't want to go west and risk the lives of her children.

Emma’s Name Clouded by Conflict

With such glowing testimony of her commitment to the Prophet Joseph and the restored gospel, why did Emma not take her children and go west with the Church? Generations have debated the issue, considering many of her comments as reported by others. Some have assumed that Emma lost her faith, others have doubted her integrity. These feelings fostered the unkind remark I had heard years ago while I was viewing Emma’s picture.

It is documented that Emma quarreled with some Church leaders over various aspects of settling Joseph’s estate and that hurt feelings resulted which were not resolved at the time. ¹⁹ Yet through prayerful examination of materials, and through refraining from judging the people involved, I have come to peacefully understand that in the threatening atmosphere of persecution that prevailed at the time, some of Emma’s hesitation resulted because she feared for the lives of her children. She did not know whom to trust and there was no time and no peace for the natural healing of her grief to occur. In February 1846, when mob violence continually threatened Church members in Illinois and state officials refused protection, the Apostles, under the direction of Brigham Young, led the Saints into a winter in the wilderness to prepare for the long journey west. To Emma, it apparently was a horrifying idea to take her orphaned children again across the frozen Mississippi without Joseph. When asked many years later why she didn’t go west, she simply replied, “I had a home here, I didn’t know what lay out there.” ²⁰

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/08/my-great-great-grandmother-emma-hale-smith?lang=eng

[CA Steve]

I think that emma did not want to go west because of her bad feelings for brigham and the problem that she experienced with him over the property issue. But she also just didn't want to go west and risk the lives of her children.

Emma’s Name Clouded by Conflict

With such glowing testimony of her commitment to the Prophet Joseph and the restored gospel, why did Emma not take her children and go west with the Church? Generations have debated the issue, considering many of her comments as reported by others. Some have assumed that Emma lost her faith, others have doubted her integrity. These feelings fostered the unkind remark I had heard years ago while I was viewing Emma’s picture.

It is documented that Emma quarreled with some Church leaders over various aspects of settling Joseph’s estate and that hurt feelings resulted which were not resolved at the time. ¹⁹ Yet through prayerful examination of materials, and through refraining from judging the people involved, I have come to peacefully understand that in the threatening atmosphere of persecution that prevailed at the time, some of Emma’s hesitation resulted because she feared for the lives of her children. She did not know whom to trust and there was no time and no peace for the natural healing of her grief to occur. In February 1846, when mob violence continually threatened Church members in Illinois and state officials refused protection, the Apostles, under the direction of Brigham Young, led the Saints into a winter in the wilderness to prepare for the long journey west. To Emma, it apparently was a horrifying idea to take her orphaned children again across the frozen Mississippi without Joseph. When asked many years later why she didn’t go west, she simply replied, “I had a home here, I didn’t know what lay out there.” ²⁰

https://www.lds.org/...-smith?lang=eng

Then why did she leave Nauvoo for a time?

[RobertAC]

I think that emma did not want to go west because of her bad feelings for brigham and the problem that she experienced with him over the property issue. But she also just didn't want to go west and risk the lives of her children.

That's quite likely true.

[Thunderfire]

She could have stopped the new church from being formed and she didn't.

It is equally as possible that Emma believed her son Joseph III to be the true heir appointed by her husband. In two sections (lds 68 and 107), Joseph wrote of the priesthood passing from father to son. Of course, the RLDS held to the belief that Joseph Jr. in fact designated his son to be his successor and not BY (with these sections as additional witness). Either way, we can clearly see that regardless of Joseph Jr's involvement, polygamy flourished under BY's leadership in the LDS and was quickly rooted out in the RLDS under Joseph III's leadership.

If she believed this to be true then she did not help form a new church, rather keep going the original church started by her husband with her son as heir. But all of this means little to me. The Book of Mormon says polygamy is wrong and should have never entered the church in the first place.

One night the Lord took me in the "night visions" and showed a time when people argued over "rights and authority", each trying to prove their claim as the true heirs. Yet in the end, none of them were right with the Lord because their eyes were on themselves and not what the Lord was doing. This was shown in how they failed to look outside and see how the Lord's work of kingdom building was proceeding in spite of our need to prove our individual sects as "more right" than the other.

In the end, the only thing of importance is our devotion to the Lord of the church instead of the church of the Lord.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Thunderfire

[Lamanite]

I found the following paragraphs from Uncle Dale interesting. I think that he made a great point with the following post that he made on a different forum about Emma and polygamy and her denial of it. He said:

What is inexcusable, is the fact that she supplied the support

necessary to start up a church based upon such lies. It can

be argued that she mainly served in a passive role in this

respect -- that she seldom evangelized for the RLDS. But

I see the same lies repeated by William Smith and by.

Katherine Smith Salisbury, for the RLDS. It was a religious

conspiracy. At times it was a conspiracy of silence, and at

other times it was a conspiracy of falsehoods --but it all

worked together to establish a false church, palming off

false doctrines upon believing members.

That is what I find inexcusable. Today even the topmost

leaders in Community of Christ are beginning to admit

openly that the founders of their sect lied about the

basic doctrines of the Church from the 1850s onward. I

guess that counts as progress.

As for Emma, I would caution any student of Mormon

History not to take her words at face value, no matter

how pious-sounding or plausible her testimony may be.

Same goes for that of Apostle William Smith and his

sister Katherine. Their lies amount to human evil.

UD

Personally, I think that he is right. Why would Emma allow an entire church to be started on a principle that she knew was a lie? Why would she allow another church to be started that would claim that Joseph never practiced polygamy. My take on it is simple. Emma allowed this lie to get out of control and she couldn't take it back. So the web grew and grew and Emma could no longer control it and a new church was formed based on a lie.

You're a piece of work man....

I call Joseph out on his dishonesty regarding Emma and polygamy and you say we don't have the complete story and we should put things in context and give Joseph the benefit of the doubt--- blah blah blah. But when it comes to Emma you just put her on blast?!?!?

Where you and I are different is that when I view the lives of both Emma and Joseph, I am able to say, to be sure they made very serious mistakes, but I empathize, I understand, and I love....

You say--- Joseph=Prophet=Beyond reproach

On the other hand it appears that Emma's equation is--- Emma=Female=Open season on her poor judgment and dishonesty.

Sexist double standard.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Thunderfire]

How is it "a little problematic"? Wasn't their stance on polygamy (as evidenced by how BookofMormonLuvr believes) foundational to the RLDS Church? It seems like their admission about polygamy and the loss of the blood line pretty much defined their transition to the Community of Christ.

I'm puzzled why some believe the RLDS/Community of Christ was founded solely against polygamy. For many, the greater reason was lineage and how Joseph designated his son as successor. Of course, it was (and still is) difficult for many to accept Joseph Jr. as a fallen prophet. Meaning, you cannot write as the word of God (Book of Mormon) that polygamy is wrong and then go ahead and do it anyway! What more proof do we need that he "lost his calling" by practicing polygamy when told by God not to do it?

I will admit to finding the whole concept of polygamy reprehensible and cannot fathom how any group of people with a direct revelation from God telling them not to do it, to go ahead and do it anyway!

I will also admit that for many years the RLDS held up the lineage issue as making us superior and closer to God than the other factions (fulfillment of revelation). In this day, I am happy that this petty issue has gone away. For me, it is not about us rather what the Lord Jesus is doing through us in fulfilling his will.

[why me]

You're a piece of work man....

I call Joseph out on his dishonesty regarding Emma and polygamy and you say we don't have the complete story and we should put things in context and give Joseph the benefit of the doubt--- blah blah blah. But when it comes to Emma you just put her on blast?!?!?

Sexist double standard.

Lamanite

Let me try this again. As we can see emma was against polygamy so much so that she allowed a church to be performed under the assumption that joseph did not practice polygamy. This was the stance of the RLDS for years and years. It is only now that they are coming to terms with the deception. Emma knew of the lie that she told and held up for others. She allowed it to get out of hand so much so, that she even allowed the RLDS to preach it. The church was founded on a lie.

Now we have Joseph who lied to emma about polygamy. It was either please his wife or please god. He already knew her reaction to fanny and stopped practicíng polygamy for years until he realized that he couldn't delay it any longer. So, he lied to emma about it who never would have been in favor of it. I see Joseph between a rock and a hard place and he did what he had to do.

I don't blame emma for denying polygamy but to allow a church to be founded on such a lie is problematic. She should have retracted the notion that Joseph was not a polygamist before the church was founded and before her son became its president.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I'm puzzled why some believe the RLDS/Community of Christ was founded solely against polygamy. For many, the greater reason was lineage and how Joseph designated his son as successor. Of course, it was (and still is) difficult for many to accept Joseph Jr. as a fallen prophet. Meaning, you cannot write as the word of God (Book of Mormon) that polygamy is wrong and then go ahead and do it anyway! What more proof do we need that he "lost his calling" by practicing polygamy when told by God not to do it?

I will admit to finding the whole concept of polygamy reprehensible and cannot fathom how any group of people with a direct revelation from God telling them not to do it, to go ahead and do it anyway!

I will also admit that for many years the RLDS held up the lineage issue as making us superior and closer to God than the other factions (fulfillment of revelation). In this day, I am happy that this petty issue has gone away. For me, it is not about us rather what the Lord Jesus is doing through us in fulfilling his will.

Because that it what they are told from childhood whenever the RLDS question is raised. Of course they don't want to go into the various revelations given to a number of men telling them that Joseph's son would take up the calling his father ordained him to- revelations given years before JSIII had any interest in church matters, much less becoming the President of the Church.

[Lamanite]

It was either please his wife or please god.

False dichotomy.

PS- Your inclusion of Fanny Alger into the polygamous equation makes your world a whole lot more messy than just dishonesty with Emma.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Lamanite

[Thunderfire]

I think the memories of Joseph practicing polygamy were so painful to her that she just wanted to block them out of her mind and pretend they never happened.

Interesting point for sure! We simply do not know. I found something unique in the "Memoirs of Joseph Smith III." He wrote of continually asking his mother if his dad practiced polygamy and she would not tell him. She instead told him to go and find out for himself. He wrote of asking many others if his dad practiced polygamy or not. No one would give a straight answer, merely giving him a name of someone else to go ask.

It seemed that everyone wanted to protect a child's memory of his father and in his own words, no one would fess up and tell him that his dad was a polygamist or not. So Joseph III (per his memoirs) never believed his dad practiced polygamy. So the RLDS "grew up" with his testimony of his father (regardless if it was correct or not).

[why me]

It seemed that everyone wanted to protect a child's memory of his father and in his own words, no one would fess up and tell him that his dad was a polygamist or not. So Joseph III (per his memoirs) never believed his dad practiced polygamy. So the RLDS "grew up" with his testimony of his father (regardless if it was correct or not).

This would be true except for the fact that Joseph III went to Utah and was told the truth about his father.