Korean War And God

[Duncan]

I watched that DVD about Saints at War:Korea. One of the veterans they interviewed said that because of the war missionary work was able to spread out in Korea. I am grateful to the veterans and for missionary work to go forth in that land. My question is did God cause the war to bring about missionary work? In Moroni 7:12-13

12Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

The good is missionary work but there was a lot of evil to get it. Can God use or manipulate evil to his purpose? Was he trying to break down barriers by using war to do it? Could someone who lost a relative there blame God and disbelieve in him even though good came out of it?

The bigger picture is how do you know what comes from God or not? isn't there a scripture about warning people to not call evil good and good evil, it's hard to distinguish what is what

[volgadon]

I don't think that God caused the war, but made as much good come out of a horrible thing as possible.

[williamsmith]

I watched that DVD about Saints at War:Korea. One of the veterans they interviewed said that because of the war missionary work was able to spread out in Korea. I am grateful to the veterans and for missionary work to go forth in that land. My question is did God cause the war to bring about missionary work? In Moroni 7:12-13

Man causes war, God only inspires men to do good, and Satan inspires men to do evil.

The good is missionary work but there was a lot of evil to get it.

And what evil was that? Implicit in your question is that the Korean War was "evil"? Why do you believe that?

Do you believe good men standing up against evil and for freedom of conscious and lives is an evil thing?

Do you believe it would have been better that North Korea was allowed to take over South Korea?

What about all the blessings in the lives of South Koreans because of that war?

War itself is not evil, war done for evil purposes and designs that is evil.

Can God use or manipulate evil to his purpose? Was he trying to break down barriers by using war to do it? Could someone who lost a relative there blame God and disbelieve in him even though good came out of it?

I think God inspired good men and women in South Korea and in America to stand against an evil and to preserve liberty.

Unfortunately because we live in a fallen state, evil exits, and as such good men who have the strength are obligated to stand against evil in all it's forms and in all way's as necessary.

People blame lot's of things and people for their problems, but that doesn't make it right or true.

The bigger picture is how do you know what comes from God or not? isn't there a scripture about warning people to not call evil good and good evil, it's hard to distinguish what is what

By knowing the facts, the details, and the motives and character of those in question. Which side wishes to oppress, to control, to gain power? Which side wishes to help, to free, to care? Light and right belongs to those who the fruits are manifest. It is no different in the Iraq etc. wars. Which side seeks to help others and which side seeks to oppress others?

Yes, there is such a scripture, Isiah 5:20. Sadly, too many call good evil and evil good. It is really not that hard to distinguish good from evil and "what is what". Where the difficulty comes is sadly too many embrace particular ideology's that tell them things that simply are not true, and causes them to ignore the things that are true. It is not true for example that North Korea or the Islamic world are the "victims" of western oppression, influence, interference etc. It is not true that America trying to help others makes us the "fascists" wanting to take over the world etc. Only ideology's of hate and bigotry use a little truth to lie calling good evil and evil good.

[CV75]

The good is missionary work but there was a lot of evil to get it. Can God use or manipulate evil to his purpose? Was he trying to break down barriers by using war to do it? Could someone who lost a relative there blame God and disbelieve in him even though good came out of it?

The bigger picture is how do you know what comes from God or not? isn't there a scripture about warning people to not call evil good and good evil, it's hard to distinguish what is what

I chalk this sort of thing up to the Lord's miracle of beating swords into plowshares. Evil is the sword, and good is the plowshare.

[thesometimesaint]

Man causes war, God only inspires men to do good, and Satan inspires men to do evil.

And what evil was that? Implicit in your question is that the Korean War was "evil"? Why do you believe that?

Do you believe good men standing up against evil and for freedom of conscious and lives is an evil thing?

Do you believe it would have been better that North Korea was allowed to take over South Korea?

What about all the blessings in the lives of South Koreans because of that war?

War itself is not evil, war done for evil purposes and designs that is evil.

I think God inspired good men and women in South Korea and in America to stand against an evil and to preserve liberty.

Unfortunately because we live in a fallen state, evil exits, and as such good men who have the strength are obligated to stand against evil in all it's forms and in all way's as necessary.

People blame lot's of things and people for their problems, but that doesn't make it right or true.

By knowing the facts, the details, and the motives and character of those in question. Which side wishes to oppress, to control, to gain power? Which side wishes to help, to free, to care? Light and right belongs to those who the fruits are manifest. It is no different in the Iraq etc. wars. Which side seeks to help others and which side seeks to oppress others?

Yes, there is such a scripture, Isiah 5:20. Sadly, too many call good evil and evil good. It is really not that hard to distinguish good from evil and "what is what". Where the difficulty comes is sadly too many embrace particular ideology's that tell them things that simply are not true, and causes them to ignore the things that are true. It is not true for example that North Korea or the Islamic world are the "victims" of western oppression, influence, interference etc. It is not true that America trying to help others makes us the "fascists" wanting to take over the world etc. Only ideology's of hate and bigotry use a little truth to lie calling good evil and evil good.

True.

Yes the Korean War was evil. It sent Heavenly Father 100's of thousands of his children to an early grave. BTW we're still at war in Korea 60 years later.

The individual soldiers were generally good. Their leaders, and their policy wasn't so good.

We'll never know now will we.

Less than half of South Koreans are Christians, and only a very small percentage are Mormon Christians. Economically South Korea has experienced Booms and Busts along with the rest of the world. Politically while a democracy it is much more a planned economy than the US.

War itself is evil.

http://www.lds.org/p...,4889-1,00.html

Nevertheless, we have not forgotten that on Sinai, God commanded, "Thou shalt not kill"; nor that in this dispensation the Lord has repeatedly reiterated that command. He has said:

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

"And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die." (D&C 42:18–19; see also 59:6)

At another time the Lord commanded that murderers should "be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness." (D&C 42:79) So also when land was to be obtained in Zion, the Lord said:

"Wherefore, the land of Zion shall not be obtained but by purchase or by blood, otherwise there is none inheritance for you.

"And if by purchase, behold you are blessed;

"And if by blood, as you are forbidden to shed blood, lo, your enemies are upon you, and ye shall be scourged from city to city, and from synagogue to synagogue, and but few shall stand to receive an inheritance." (D&C 63:29–31)

But all these commands, from Sinai down, run in very terms against individuals as members of society, as well as members of the Church, for one man must not kill another as Cain killed Abel; they also run against the Church as in the case of securing land in Zion, because Christ's Church should not make war, for the Lord is a Lord of peace. He has said to us in this dispensation:

"Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace . . . " (D&C 98:16) Thus the Church is and must be against war. The Church itself cannot wage war, unless and until the Lord shall issue new commands. It cannot regard war as a righteous means of settling international disputes; these should and could be settled—the nations agreeing—by peaceful negotiation and adjustment.

The Iraq war was perpetrated by lying men trying to deceive us that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction ready to be deployed against the US and and Great Britain. In reality it was a war to gain control of Iraq's oil, or don't you remember Richard Cheney's Energy Task force with its map of Iraqi oil. How about that "O"peration "I"raqi "L"iberation?

Iraq wouldn't exist if it weren't for British Petroleum's desire for all that oil under those tribal lands. Iran's democratically elected President was overthrown by the US CIA in concert with British Petroleum. I won't even get into Manifest Destiny or America's Banana republics in central America and client states in South America.

I'm not a pacifist. If any one attacks me or mine I will respond with all appropriate means at my disposal. But they have to be the aggressor. I never will be.

Unfortunately the US is an empire, and the sun never sets on its reach.

You are out of the thread. There is a fine line between general discussion and partisan politics. You crossed it.

[williamsmith]

I'm not going to argue politics with you because it is against board rules, however most of what you have stated is utterly false, for there is more to those issues that tells the actual truth. As a defender of the faith and a faithful LDS a person shouldn't allow themselves to be deceived by such half truths.

[Duncan]

True.

Yes the Korean War was evil. It sent Heavenly Father 100's of thousands of his children to an early grave. BTW we're still at war in Korea 60 years later.

The individual soldiers were generally good. Their leaders, and their policy wasn't so good.

We'll never know now will we.

Less than half of South Koreans are Christians, and only a very small percentage are Mormon Christians. Economically South Korea has experienced Booms and Busts along with the rest of the world. Politically while a democracy it is much more a planned economy than the US.

War itself is evil.

http://www.lds.org/p...,4889-1,00.html

Nevertheless, we have not forgotten that on Sinai, God commanded, "Thou shalt not kill"; nor that in this dispensation the Lord has repeatedly reiterated that command. He has said:

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

"And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die." (D&C 42:18–19; see also 59:6)

At another time the Lord commanded that murderers should "be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness." (D&C 42:79) So also when land was to be obtained in Zion, the Lord said:

"Wherefore, the land of Zion shall not be obtained but by purchase or by blood, otherwise there is none inheritance for you.

"And if by purchase, behold you are blessed;

"And if by blood, as you are forbidden to shed blood, lo, your enemies are upon you, and ye shall be scourged from city to city, and from synagogue to synagogue, and but few shall stand to receive an inheritance." (D&C 63:29–31)

But all these commands, from Sinai down, run in very terms against individuals as members of society, as well as members of the Church, for one man must not kill another as Cain killed Abel; they also run against the Church as in the case of securing land in Zion, because Christ's Church should not make war, for the Lord is a Lord of peace. He has said to us in this dispensation:

"Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace . . . " (D&C 98:16) Thus the Church is and must be against war. The Church itself cannot wage war, unless and until the Lord shall issue new commands. It cannot regard war as a righteous means of settling international disputes; these should and could be settled—the nations agreeing—by peaceful negotiation and adjustment.

The Iraq war was perpetrated by lying men trying to deceive us that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction ready to be deployed against the US and and Great Britain. In reality it was a war to gain control of Iraq's oil, or don't you remember Richard Cheney's Energy Task force with its map of Iraqi oil. How about that "O"peration "I"raqi "L"iberation?

Iraq wouldn't exist if it weren't for British Petroleum's desire for all that oil under those tribal lands. Iran's democratically elected President was overthrown by the US CIA in concert with British Petroleum. I won't even get into Manifest Destiny or America's Banana republics in central America and client states in South America.

I'm not a pacifist. If any one attacks me or mine I will respond with all appropriate means at my disposal. But they have to be the aggressor. I never will be.

Unfortunately the US is an empire, and the sun never sets on its reach.

I love you!! you said it MUCH better then I!

[thesometimesaint]

Duncan:

I love you more.

I don't know about that. You seem pretty well informed to me.

Edited October 3, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[williamsmith]

True.

Yes the Korean War was evil. It sent Heavenly Father 100's of thousands of his children to an early grave. BTW we're still at war in Korea 60 years later.

God has sent billions to their deaths by war. Death is not the evil, what war is done in the name and ideology of is.

The individual soldiers were generally good. Their leaders, and their policy wasn't so good.

We'll never know now will we.

We can know. So, when South Korea wanted to be free from Northern oppression and dictatorship, the policy to help those people be free was not a "good" policy in your view?

Less than half of South Koreans are Christians, and only a very small percentage are Mormon Christians. Economically South Korea has experienced Booms and Busts along with the rest of the world. Politically while a democracy it is much more a planned economy than the US.

I've been to South Korea, the war and thus freedom gave people happiness and prosperity. And I'm sure there are far more Christians there than there are in North Korea.

War itself is evil.

http://www.lds.org/p...,4889-1,00.html

Nevertheless, we have not forgotten that on Sinai, God commanded, "Thou shalt not kill"; nor that in this dispensation the Lord has repeatedly reiterated that command. He has said:

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

"And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die." (D&C 42:18–19; see also 59:6)

At another time the Lord commanded that murderers should "be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness." (D&C 42:79) So also when land was to be obtained in Zion, the Lord said:

"Wherefore, the land of Zion shall not be obtained but by purchase or by blood, otherwise there is none inheritance for you.

"And if by purchase, behold you are blessed;

"And if by blood, as you are forbidden to shed blood, lo, your enemies are upon you, and ye shall be scourged from city to city, and from synagogue to synagogue, and but few shall stand to receive an inheritance." (D&C 63:29–31)

But all these commands, from Sinai down, run in very terms against individuals as members of society, as well as members of the Church, for one man must not kill another as Cain killed Abel; they also run against the Church as in the case of securing land in Zion, because Christ's Church should not make war, for the Lord is a Lord of peace. He has said to us in this dispensation:

"Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace . . . " (D&C 98:16) Thus the Church is and must be against war. The Church itself cannot wage war, unless and until the Lord shall issue new commands. It cannot regard war as a righteous means of settling international disputes; these should and could be settled—the nations agreeing—by peaceful negotiation and adjustment.

War itself is not evil, for there are plenty of examples in the Bible and the Book of Mormon in which war is just.

Further, context is everything. Most of the above scriptures are commanding "the Church" not to go to war.

Further, the command not to kill refers to not "murder". War in the defense of the innocent, right, freedom, etc. is not "murder".

The Iraq war was perpetrated by lying men trying to deceive us that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction ready to be deployed against the US and and Great Britain. In reality it was a war to gain control of Iraq's oil, or don't you remember Richard Cheney's Energy Task force with its map of Iraqi oil. How about that "O"peration "I"raqi "L"iberation?

1. Everyone thought Iraq had WMD's, not simply the so-called "lying men". That makes them at the most mistaken, not liars.

2. Iraq did have WMD, plenty, but when most were found it was toward the end of the war, and they were some huge nuclear weapons or something, thus the major media ignored reporting. Further, the major WMD's Sadaam had were discovered to have been shipped to Syria just prior to the war. If you don't believe me on this, Google for the information yourself (after weeding through all the false no wmd articles).

3. The US didn't even get the oil other country's did, before, during or after the war, so much for that false theory. Of course they had a "plan" for the oil, it's a major national resource that had to be protected.

4. It's not that Iraq would deploy the WMD's it's that they would be given to terrorists who would deploy them.

Iraq wouldn't exist if it weren't for British Petroleum's desire for all that oil under those tribal lands. Iran's democratically elected President was overthrown by the US CIA in concert with British Petroleum. I won't even get into Manifest Destiny or America's Banana republics in central America and client states in South America.

Half truths are still falsehoods.

I'm not a pacifist. If any one attacks me or mine I will respond with all appropriate means at my disposal. But they have to be the aggressor. I never will be.

So, the US was the "aggressor" and not North Korea when the US came to South Korea's aid when the North was trying to invade?

So, fanatical Islam is not the "aggressor" when it had relationships and bases in Iraq and otherwise, had been attacking the US and other innocent, and then when the US responds to fanactical Islam it's actually the aggressor in your mind?

Unfortunately the US is an empire, and the sun never sets on its reach.

Unfortunately it seems some read to much of those who do not tell the truth, rather than those who do, when they should know better.

Sorry, thought I wasn't going to respond, but I just had to correct the falsehoods.

Those are political party positions. You will be the next to go if you continue.

[bluebell]

I'm not going to argue politics with you because it is against board rules, however most of what you have stated is utterly false, for there is more to those issues that tells the actual truth. As a defender of the faith and a faithful LDS a person shouldn't allow themselves to be deceived by such half truths.

Having a degree in history (which means i know just enough to know i don't know all that much), it's a fact that the U.S. was seldom (ever?) the knight in shining armor during the Cold War. We were more than willing to back really HORRIBLE men, knowing full well they were doing HORRIBLE things, to keep from looking weak to Russia. The Korean War wasn't much different. These are not half truths, they are just truths.

In the smaller scope though, I don't know that that automatically means that the Korean war was 'evil'. It had some really bad consquences and many many people suffered greatly (and such suffering would probably be considered 'evil' under such circumstances). It's hard to know what other evils might have come to pass if it had not been fought though. And of course, there were men many fighting on both sides who were good and honorable and decent men.

To the OP, God uses the wicked to punish the wicked and that punishment is His will-not because He delights in such punishments but because hopefully they will help people turn back to Him. In that way, the Korean War could be said to have been a punishment for wickedness which, per the person you spoke with, brought about the outcome which most such punishments are meant to bring about (hopefully that makes sense).

[rodheadlee]

God has sent billions to their deaths by war.

CFR

[William Schryver]

It is said that a picture paints a thousand words:

(North and South Korea, by night)

It is also well known that the majority of North Koreans goes to bed hungry every night.

I agree with this statement made by Mitt Romney in his recent speech at the Clinton Global Initiative (I highly recommend reading the entire speech, which I believe to be one of the best speeches of Romney's presidential campaign):

Free enterprise has done more to bless humanity than any other economic system not only because it is the only system that creates a prosperous middle class, but also because it is the only system where the individual enjoys the freedom to guide and build his or her own life. Free enterprise cannot only make us better off financially, it can make us better people.

Link

Edited October 3, 2012 by William Schryver

[bcuzbcuz]

True.

Yes the Korean War was evil. It sent Heavenly Father 100's of thousands of his children to an early grave. BTW we're still at war in Korea 60 years later.

The individual soldiers were generally good. Their leaders, and their policy wasn't so good.

We'll never know now will we.

Less than half of South Koreans are Christians, and only a very small percentage are Mormon Christians. Economically South Korea has experienced Booms and Busts along with the rest of the world. Politically while a democracy it is much more a planned economy than the US.

War itself is evil.

http://www.lds.org/p...,4889-1,00.html

Nevertheless, we have not forgotten that on Sinai, God commanded, "Thou shalt not kill"; nor that in this dispensation the Lord has repeatedly reiterated that command. He has said:

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

"And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die." (D&C 42:18–19; see also 59:6)

At another time the Lord commanded that murderers should "be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness." (D&C 42:79) So also when land was to be obtained in Zion, the Lord said:

"Wherefore, the land of Zion shall not be obtained but by purchase or by blood, otherwise there is none inheritance for you.

"And if by purchase, behold you are blessed;

"And if by blood, as you are forbidden to shed blood, lo, your enemies are upon you, and ye shall be scourged from city to city, and from synagogue to synagogue, and but few shall stand to receive an inheritance." (D&C 63:29–31)

But all these commands, from Sinai down, run in very terms against individuals as members of society, as well as members of the Church, for one man must not kill another as Cain killed Abel; they also run against the Church as in the case of securing land in Zion, because Christ's Church should not make war, for the Lord is a Lord of peace. He has said to us in this dispensation:

"Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace . . . " (D&C 98:16) Thus the Church is and must be against war. The Church itself cannot wage war, unless and until the Lord shall issue new commands. It cannot regard war as a righteous means of settling international disputes; these should and could be settled—the nations agreeing—by peaceful negotiation and adjustment.

The Iraq war was perpetrated by lying men trying to deceive us that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction ready to be deployed against the US and and Great Britain. In reality it was a war to gain control of Iraq's oil, or don't you remember Richard Cheney's Energy Task force with its map of Iraqi oil. How about that "O"peration "I"raqi "L"iberation?

Iraq wouldn't exist if it weren't for British Petroleum's desire for all that oil under those tribal lands. Iran's democratically elected President was overthrown by the US CIA in concert with British Petroleum. I won't even get into Manifest Destiny or America's Banana republics in central America and client states in South America.

I'm not a pacifist. If any one attacks me or mine I will respond with all appropriate means at my disposal. But they have to be the aggressor. I never will be.

Unfortunately the US is an empire, and the sun never sets on its reach.

You are out of the thread. There is a fine line between general discussion and partisan politics. You crossed it.

Obviously, political discussions balance on a fine line and IMO political opinions shape our daily lives as much as political realities. Too bad you're batted out on strikes but I thought your comments had much food for thought.

[thesometimesaint]

God has sent billions to their deaths by war. Death is not the evil, what war is done in the name and ideology of is.

We can know. So, when South Korea wanted to be free from Northern oppression and dictatorship, the policy to help those people be free was not a "good" policy in your view?

I've been to South Korea, the war and thus freedom gave people happiness and prosperity. And I'm sure there are far more Christians there than there are in North Korea.

War itself is not evil, for there are plenty of examples in the Bible and the Book of Mormon in which war is just.

Further, context is everything. Most of the above scriptures are commanding "the Church" not to go to war.

Further, the command not to kill refers to not "murder". War in the defense of the innocent, right, freedom, etc. is not "murder".

1. Everyone thought Iraq had WMD's, not simply the so-called "lying men". That makes them at the most mistaken, not liars.

2. Iraq did have WMD, plenty, but when most were found it was toward the end of the war, and they were some huge nuclear weapons or something, thus the major media ignored reporting. Further, the major WMD's Sadaam had were discovered to have been shipped to Syria just prior to the war. If you don't believe me on this, Google for the information yourself (after weeding through all the false no wmd articles).

3. The US didn't even get the oil other country's did, before, during or after the war, so much for that false theory. Of course they had a "plan" for the oil, it's a major national resource that had to be protected.

4. It's not that Iraq would deploy the WMD's it's that they would be given to terrorists who would deploy them.

Half truths are still falsehoods.

So, the US was the "aggressor" and not North Korea when the US came to South Korea's aid when the North was trying to invade?

So, fanatical Islam is not the "aggressor" when it had relationships and bases in Iraq and otherwise, had been attacking the US and other innocent, and then when the US responds to fanactical Islam it's actually the aggressor in your mind?

Unfortunately it seems some read to much of those who do not tell the truth, rather than those who do, when they should know better.

Sorry, thought I wasn't going to respond, but I just had to correct the falsehoods.

Death is inevitable. War is another matter. BTW War is just murder on a grand scale.

It was the UN lead by the US that arbitrarily divided North and South Korea. It was an internal Civil War before the US through the UN became involved.

I've been to Mississippi but that doesn't mean I agree with Share Cropping. Does the simple fact that I've been to Canada and Mexico does that make me an expert on their laws and internal affairs?

North Korea is an official Atheistic state. I don't have any love for its leaders either. It is the regular citizens that I feel sorry for. Prosperity is nice, I recommend it, but there is no correlation between prosperity and righteousness.

1. Everyone didn't believe Iraq had WMD. Our own inspectors repeatedly reported that none such existed. During the lead-up to war in March 2003, United Nations weapons inspector Hans Blix had found no stockpiles of WMD and had made significant progress toward resolving open issues of disarmament noting "proactive" but not always the "immediate" Iraqi cooperation as called for by UN Security Council Resolution 1441. He concluded that it would take “but months” to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks.^[4] The United States asserted this was a breach of Resolution 1441 but failed to convince the UN Security Council to pass a new resolution authorizing the use of force due to lack of evidence.^[5][6][7] Despite being unable to get a new resolution authorizing force and citing section 3 of the Joint Resolution passed by the U.S. Congress,^[8] President George W. Bush asserted peaceful measures could not disarm Iraq of the weapons he alleged it to have and launched a second Gulf War,^[9] despite multiple dissenting opinions^[10] and questions of integrity^[11][12][13] about the underlying intelligence.^[14] Later U.S.-led inspections agreed that Iraq had earlier abandoned its WMD programs, but asserted Iraq had an intention to pursue those programs if UN sanctions were ever lifted.^[15] Bush later said that the biggest regret of his presidency was "the intelligence failure" in Iraq,^[16] while the Senate Intelligence Committee found in 2008 that his administration "misrepresented the intelligence and the threat from Iraq".^[17] A key CIA informant in Iraq admitted that he lied about his allegations, "then watched in shock as it was used to justify the war".^[18] In 2012, Britain will help the Iraqi government dispose of what is left of Saddam's chemical weapons. The teams will work to safely destroy remnants of munitions and chemical warfare agents left over from Saddam's regime.^[19]

2. Incorrect. NO WMD were found. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7634313/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/cias-final-report-no-wmd-found-iraq/#.UGyKooYyCSo

3. :rofl: Saddam was willing to, and did sell oil to any and all buyers. He even acted as a break to Iran's wanting to jack up the price. In overthrowing Saddam we made Iran a key player in Iraq's affairs.

4. Saddam hated Al Qaeda. They were natural enemies. Saddam was a secular dictator that was very jealous of his power. Al Qaeda is a bunch of religious fanatics that wants to change the entire middle east to rise up against not only the west but Muslims that aren't Wahhabi.

And outright fabrications are still lies. BTW I can and do backup all my claims from independent of me sources.

From the Four Men of the Apocalypse to modern day Prophets. War itself is an evil. We are to settle our international disagreements with negotiation and compromise. BTW Men have a strange ability to blame God as a rationalization for their own evil acts. IF God really wants someone taken out. I'm sure he knows how to do it himself.

War is simply murder on a grand scale. Self defense is a justification for action of the victim not the aggressor.

You can't as an aggressor claim that the victim was thinking about protecting himself to justify your aggression.

There was no North or South Korea it was just Korea. The UN though the US arbitrarily drew a line in the sand to demarcate both sides in a Civil War. It would be like when the South seceded from the Union and Britain separating the US into two countries. We do know what Abraham Lincoln reaction was when Britain tried it. He blockaded southern ports.

There is no "Fanatical Islam". There are hopheads in any/all religions. We don't blame "Fanatical Mormons" for the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

That's the problem with reading. You just might learn something.

War is peace; Freedom is slavery; Ignorance is strength

Name me one place on the globe that the American Empire's war machine can't reach within 24hrs or less.

I told no falsewhoods. There is no reason to apologize for how you feel, but let's back those feelings up with facts before starting to type.

[bcuzbcuz]

It is said that a picture paints a thousand words:

(North and South Korea, by night)

All this pictures shows is that Kim Jong Il was the only one who left his nightlight on after 'lights out'. With an all powerful Dad like Kim Il Sung, no wonder he was afraid of the dark.

[bcuzbcuz]

Having a degree in history (which means i know just enough to know i don't know all that much), it's a fact that the U.S. was seldom (ever?) the knight in shining armor during the Cold War. We were more than willing to back really HORRIBLE men, knowing full well they were doing HORRIBLE things, to keep from looking weak to Russia. The Korean War wasn't much different. These are not half truths, they are just truths.

In the smaller scope though, I don't know that that automatically means that the Korean war was 'evil'. It had some really bad consquences and many many people suffered greatly (and such suffering would probably be considered 'evil' under such circumstances). It's hard to know what other evils might have come to pass if it had not been fought though. And of course, there were men many fighting on both sides who were good and honorable and decent men.

To the OP, God uses the wicked to punish the wicked and that punishment is His will-not because He delights in such punishments but because hopefully they will help people turn back to Him. In that way, the Korean War could be said to have been a punishment for wickedness which, per the person you spoke with, brought about the outcome which most such punishments are meant to bring about (hopefully that makes sense).

I also have a degree in History and my typing fingers are itching to get involved in this discussion. I'm old enough to remember who the top dog was in South Korea when South Korea was formed, Syngman Rhee. He was Not a nice guy. Park Chung-hee, Choi Kyu-hah, then Chun Doo-hwan would hardly qualify as shining examples of democratic leaders, either. Roh Tae-woo came closer to allowing more freedoms in South Korea in the late 1980's but he was, nevertheless, still not anywhere close to what Americans view as a democratic leader, unless merely being anti-communist qualifies as the sole criterion.

[bluebell]

I also have a degree in History and my typing fingers are itching to get involved in this discussion. I'm old enough to remember who the top dog was in South Korea when South Korea was formed, Syngman Rhee. He was Not a nice guy. Park Chung-hee, Choi Kyu-hah, then Chun Doo-hwan would hardly qualify as shining examples of democratic leaders, either. Roh Tae-woo came closer to allowing more freedoms in South Korea in the late 1980's but he was, nevertheless, still not anywhere close to what Americans view as a democratic leader, unless merely being anti-communist qualifies as the sole criterion.

My area of study dealt with latin american countries during the cold war. For Americans, especially the American government in the 1960's, being anti-communist was pretty much the only criterion that was looked for.

As you know, we'd practically let dictators assassinate americans in our own country, and barely bat an eye when they massacred their own people, if those dictators were against communism. That's not the history that is taught in school though, so many Americans have no idea what was actually going on.

[urroner]

Deletion of jaguar pa's post in 3...2...1...

[oremites]

... still not anywhere close to what Americans view as a democratic leader, unless merely being anti-communist qualifies as the sole criterion.

Which turned out to be a good criterion. Look what communism has done for North Korea vs. what has happened in South Korea. I'd say history has vindicated the US involvement in Korea even though the people we were backing weren't "nice guys."

And from the LDS perspective, the Gospel is spreading in South Korea. We have a temple there. North Korea? Not so much.

I don't think the Korean war was a good thing, but I'm glad our side won in the south and kept it free.

[Duncan]

I wrote a paper once in Uni on the Battle of Kapyong and the Canadians in it but that was years ago now. I was wondering do you think God was giving an "out" to this war so that the baddies can't say at the last day 'well what other options did we have?'

[bluebell]

Which turned out to be a good criterion. Look what communism has done for North Korea vs. what has happened in South Korea. I'd say history has vindicated the US involvement in Korea even though the people we were backing weren't "nice guys."

And from the LDS perspective, the Gospel is spreading in South Korea. We have a temple there. North Korea? Not so much.

I don't think the Korean war was a good thing, but I'm glad our side won in the south and kept it free.

So you believe that the end justifies the means?

Is it justifiable to knowingly support evil if some good comes of it?

[blackstrap]

In the battle of Good vs Evil in this world,this is the criteria . If we kill them , that is good. If they kill us,that is evil. It's just that simple.

[urroner]

Sometimes the ends do justify the means, sometimes they don't.

Does engaging your enemies in battle a means to a end which is preserving them and protecting them?

If we are willing to protect our family in such a way, should we be willing to afford our friends and neighbors the same protection or should we simply tell them to go fight their own battles?

In worldly events, sometimes we have to join with evil people to prevent a greater evil. We don't live in ivory towers and grow plastics flowers. Everything can't be perfect. Sometimes we are limited in the choices we can make. Sometimes it's join with evil forces to prevent the greater evil from occurring or it's to not join and have the greater evil win. Sometimes there are basically only two plausible choices, neither of which is palatable.

[williamsmith]

It is really unfortunate reading the words here.

The US shouldn't have gotten involved in WWII, after all, it wasn't our business, and only 3,000 people died and some warships.

It is sad I see here that we should simply stick our heads in the sand when people ask for help from a greater threat or there is a greater threat, no matter how so-called "bad" some leaders we were helping might have been. They couldn't have been that bad, because look at the fruits. Further, we do things to help the people, not so much the leaders.

Bottom line is that war used for good purposes when the innocent need help is an act of brotherly love.

The scriptures even say that one who gives his life for another is among God's greatest.

Just War Theory

Clearly, the Christian ideal is total elimination of war and brotherly love among all people. However, in this imperfect world, war may be forced on those who do not desire it. St. Augustine (354 - 430) and St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) are primarily responsible for formulating the theory of the Just War which has remained the majority Christian approach to war to this day. There are many variations on the just war theory, but these are the basics:

• There must be a just cause for the war.
  
  • War must be waged only in response to certain, grave and lasting damage inflicted by an aggressor.
    
  • The motive for war must be advancement of good or avoidance of evil.
    
  • The ultimate objective of war must be to bring peace.
    
  • Revenge, revolt, a desire to harm, dominate, or exploit and similar things are not justification for war.
    

  [*]Every possible means of peacefully settling the conflict must be exhausted first.

  [*]There must be serious prospects of success; bloodshed without hope of victory cannot be justified.

  [*]The war must be declared by a legitimate authority. Private individuals or groups should seek redress of their rights through their governments, not by acts of war.

  [*]The war must not cause greater evil than the evil to be eliminated.

  [*]Non-combatants (civilians) must not be intentionally harmed.

  [*]Prisoners and conquered peoples must be treated justly.

[bluebell]

Bottom line is that war used for good purposes when the innocent need help is an act of brotherly love.

The scriptures even say that one who gives his life for another is among God's greatest.

I agree.

All i'm saying is that the U.S. rarely (if ever) get's involved in wars because the innocent need help. And i'm not saying that to disparage the U.S. because i love my country and in many ways i am very proud of it. I say it because it's just a fact. It's not a secret, the information is plentiful and very available. If you go to the National Security Archives you can oftentimes read it right from the actual memos, letters, CIA and Embassy wires it was printed on.

The U.S., especially during the cold war, fought wars to protect it's own interests. In fact, it routinely supported leaders who killed innocents, because those men also protected the interests of the U.S.

It IS unfortunate-not that the truth is known, but that it ever happened in the first place.