Boy Scouts

[Tacenda]

Duplicate

[Skylla]

This is not an SSA thread. Get back on topic.

Skylla

[KevinG]

So do you have suspicions of priesthood leaders attending girls camp? Are you advocating a change on that church policy? Do you also feel any gay Aaronic Pristhood holder should be barred from all young men's activities?

Prejudice run deep. They are harder to justify when compared to similar situations where prejudice is not part of the conclusion.

I have been the priesthood representative at girls camp. My job was to cook and provide night security. I NEVER had direct contact with the young women without a female leader present.

Gay YM should not be barred from activities. An openly gay leader should not be in charge of YM. for teaching or supervisory purposes.

Your accusations of prejudice are not appropriate.

Sorry Skylla but I felt that charge should be answered.

[california boy]

I have been the priesthood representative at girls camp. My job was to cook and provide night security. I NEVER had direct contact with the young women without a female leader present.

Gay YM should not be barred from activities. An openly gay leader should not be in charge of YM. for teaching or supervisory purposes.

Your accusations of prejudice are not appropriate.

Sorry Skylla but I felt that charge should be answered.

Do you really think that a male surround by girls is able to provide night security? Of course you do because you are not a pedophile. And that is exactly my point. You always had another adult leader with you when you were performing this service. And that is the point.

The churches policy of making sure two adults are always together is a solid way to control deviant behavior whether at girls camp at scout camp or any other youth activity. It is a much better policy then baring gay men from serving in youth program because of preceived danger. I have not heard of instances where any problems occurred both within the BSA and the church where two leaders were present at all times. I served in the young mens program for years both as young mens president and teachers quorum advisor. Never had any desire to molest any boys because I am gay not a pedophile.

When the BSA or the Church simply bans gays from participating is all that does is makes them FEEL the boys are protected because of their own prejudice. Does anyone really think a pedophile is going to tell anyone he is a pedophile on his application? It is a ridiculous policy that only can be characterized as being based on false prejudice. This policy is no difference than the idea that that existed in this country for far too long where black men should never be around white women because everyone "knew" they want to rape white women. Both are a policy of ignorance and prejudice.

Let me ask the question. Do you think that requiring two adults to be together at all times in the scouting program whether straight or gay is a better idea. Or do you think barring all gay men from an organization allowing pedophiles to lie about their intentions and serve under the guise of being straight?

If this policy is not based on prejudice, just exactly what is it based on?

[RobertAC]

This is going to sound like I support sweeping child abuse under the rug -- which I don't believe should be done -- but the problem with looking back with 20/20 hindsight on these abuse cases is there is no sense as to what BSA leadership saw at the time the accusations were made. It seems reasonable to want to protect the accused in case the accuser is wrong. Moreover, before 1990, there were few, uniform policies to deal with accusations of sexual abuse.

[KevinG]

Do you really think that a male surround by girls is able to provide night security? Of course you do because you are not a pedophile. And that is exactly my point. You always had another adult leader with you when you were performing this service. And that is the point.

Ummm... no its not the point.

The point is the BSA is perfectly right to limit those leaders to those who share and teach their moral values.

[Daniel2]

More news:

Gay Scouts come out, rally around teen's Eagle

Ryan Andresen had completed the requirements to earn his Eagle Scout award, but his his father, Eric, said the Scoutmaster told him his son wouldn't get it because he recently came out as gay. The Boy Scouts of America said Andresen was no longer eligible for membership in Scouting because of his sexual orientation and since he does not agree to the BSA's principle of "Duty to God."

By Miranda Leitsinger, NBC News

 

Matthew Kimball walked away from the Boy Scouts in 2005.

Since he was gay, Kimball knew that his sexual orientation would be at odds with the Boy Scouts of America’s policy banning gay Scouts and leaders. Kimball was both: an Eagle Scout and an assistant Scoutmaster.

Kimball had not revealed his sexual orientation during his Scouting years. But he decided, like a number of other gay Scouts, that he could no longer stay publicly quiet about the organization’s membership policy after learning that Ryan Andresen, a teen from his own Troop 212 in Moraga, Calif., had been denied the Eagle rank last week because he is gay.

“My immediate reaction was frustration with myself, because I felt if I had done what this kid did … he wouldn’t have to be going through this, hopefully,” said Kimball, referring to Andresen’s coming out in July to his troop in a letter.

Kimball, via a Facebook page, called on other Eagle Scouts to give their pins to Andresen after the teen’s story emerged last week. “I never thought I’d ever come out in an explicit way ever,” Kimball, who was leaving Scouting as Andresen was joining the troop, told NBC News late Monday. “But I just felt like I had to.”

Andresen, 18, had completed the requirements to earn the Scouts’ highest honor, but his Scoutmaster would not sign off on the award because he is gay, his mother said. The Scoutmaster has not replied to emails or a phone call seeking comment.

Kimball, a technology entrepreneur in San Francisco, said he has received up to 170 pledges of pins from Eagle Scouts, including about 48 from Troop 212 alumni. Scouts for Equality said last week that some 300 Eagle Scouts had returned their regalia in protest to the Boy Scouts since the organization announced in July that it had re-affirmed its membership policy after a confidential, two-year review. But many other Eagle Scouts have said they agreed with the policy.

A spokesman for the Boy Scouts of America, Deron Smith, said 50,000 Scouts earn the Eagle rank every year, and in August noted that a “few” had returned their medals, badges or certificates since the membership policy announcement. On Tuesday, he said he didn’t have an update on numbers of regalia returned, but noted such items were either kept at the national office or stored in the National Scouting Museum. He also said Scouting ranks, such as the Eagle Scout, represent a past achievement and the BSA did not revoke them once they were awarded.

Most of the Scouts pledging their pins were heterosexual, Kimball said, though a number of gay Eagle Scouts made similar offers in emails sent to NBC News since hearing of Andresen’s story. One of those was Eric-Richard de Lora, an adviser to the Gay-Lesbian Union that Andresen and others founded at his high school in Berkeley this fall.

De Lora, 53, said he considered returning his Eagle in 1997 after coming out but felt strongly that he had earned it and decided to keep it. He also thought about returning it in 2000, when the U.S. Supreme Court sided with the Boy Scouts on the anti-gay membership policy.

“Ultimately I held on to the award believing that it might someday serve a useful purpose,” said de Lora, a teacher at Maybeck High School.

That day appeared to come after Andresen informed de Lora last Monday about what was happening with his Eagle bid. Andresen, de Lora wrote, had completed the requirements for the Eagle, including building a “tolerance wall” for victims of bullying such as himself.

“This week I have finally decided that the best use of my award, short of giving it to Ryan, would be to donate it to the GLBT Historical Society in San Francisco,” he wrote in an email to NBC News. “ … it seems the right place for both a tribute to homosexual Scouts and all that they have endured.”

Another gay Eagle Scout, Robert Goris-Kolb, a 25-year-old pharmacist from Grand Island, N.Y., said his husband had been pushing him to return his badge after the BSA announced it was sticking with the membership policy.

“Unlike Ryan, at the time I earned my Eagle Scout badge I was not out of the closet, and did not have to face the indefensible discrimination he is currently confronted with,” he wrote. Media reports on Andresen have “finally pushed me over the edge and I can no longer stay on the sidelines of this tragedy. Instead of returning my award to the BSA however, I would like to send it to Ryan, so that if he does not win his fight against this organization, he may in one way be granted what he has rightfully earned.”

Karen Andresen, who had started an online petition calling for her son to get his Eagle rank, said the Scoutmaster knew about her son's sexual orientation and that Ryan was led to believe he would nonetheless get the award.

But Boys Scouts spokesman Smith told NBC News that Andresen was no longer eligible for membership in Scouting because he had informed his unit leadership that he does not agree to Scouting’s principle of 'Duty to God' and does not meet the membership standard on sexual orientation. The family disputed that, saying the only reason Andresen was denied the rank is "because the Boy Scouts of America has a problem with Ryan being gay."

Kimball, who knows Andresen’s father, Eric, the troop's chief administrator, attended a troop meeting earlier this week on how to resolve Ryan’s case. He said talks were under way on recognizing the teen’s accomplishment while keeping the troop together amid the difficult time and some hard feelings.

“I want Ryan to be recognized. I want him to get an Eagle award even if it’s mine,” he said. “It’s a physical symbol that encapsulates so many great memories and a really important time in our lives … it’s difficult to let go of, but for me, I knew that it would be a positive thing.”

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/09/14293913-gay-scouts-come-out-rally-around-teens-eagle-scout-bid?lite

[USU78]

Two words: "Morally Straight."

[cinepro]

Two words: "Morally Straight."

One word:

"Straight"

[KevinG]

One word:

"Straight"

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Seriously - freedom of association is guaranteed under the constitution.

[USU78]

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Seriously - freedom of association is guaranteed under the constitution.

During Baden-Powell's lifetime, nobody could misunderstand what was meant by "morally straight." And a participant in homosexual activities would not be and is not presently considered "morally straight" by the BSA.

Should this change . . . the Church will go elsewhere with its youth programming needs.

[KevinG]

Should this change . . . the Church will go elsewhere with its youth programming needs.

Which is precisely what groups who disagree with the BSAs current standards should do. NOT try to impose a moral standard on the privately run BSA that disagrees with their values.

[Daniel2]

Two words: "Morally Straight."

This appears to suggest that an individual with attractions towards those of his same gender is not "morally straight."

During Baden-Powell's lifetime, nobody could misunderstand what was meant by "morally straight." And a participant in homosexual activities would not be and is not presently considered "morally straight" by the BSA.

Should this change . . . the Church will go elsewhere with its youth programming needs.

What evidence do you have that the Boy Scout in the news article you commented on is "a participant in homosexual activities"?

Even if he had, do you believe that any boy that's ever participated in sexual activities with someone of his same gender should be "disqualified" from receiving his Eagle Award?

Can an individual with attactions towards those of his same gender be "morally straight" enough for priesthood ordiantion? Are you aware of instances when individuals who had previously participated in activities were later found worthy for priesthood ordination? What about participation in priesthood ordinances and blessings? Same questions for worthiness to enter the temple and particiate in temple ordinances?

For....... the Boy Scouts....??

When it comes to this young man getting his Eagle Scout conferred on him, does the BSA have more "moral straightness" than the Father in Heaven that you worship, who allows individuals who are attracted to members of their own gender to have temple recommends........?

Daniel2

[thesometimesaint]

Daniel2:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Boy Scouts of America are two different organizations, and are independent of one another. The Church has chosen to conform to the BSA rules as a participant in the BSA program for its young men. Any overlap on the question of morally straight is coincidental, and can be changed at will by either side. Just as either side can decline membership in the BSA.

There is no requirement to have been or are currently a member of the BSA to fully participate in any program or meeting of the Church including that of Temple worship.

PS; I went from being a Cub Scout, to Webelo, to Star Scout, to Assistant Scout Master, to Scout Master. I enjoyed every minute of it. But I wish the Church would initiate a program for the boys that have no interest in Scouts.

[USU78]

This appears to suggest that an individual with attractions towards those of his same gender is not "morally straight."

What evidence do you have that the Boy Scout in the news article you commented on is "a participant in homosexual activities"?

Even if he had, do you believe that any boy that's ever participated in sexual activities with someone of his same gender should be "disqualified" from receiving his Eagle Award?

Can an individual with attactions towards those of his same gender be "morally straight" enough for priesthood ordiantion? Are you aware of instances when individuals who had previously participated in activities were later found worthy for priesthood ordination? What about participation in priesthood ordinances and blessings? Same questions for worthiness to enter the temple and particiate in temple ordinances?

For....... the Boy Scouts....??

When it comes to this young man getting his Eagle Scout conferred on him, does the BSA have more "moral straightness" than the Father in Heaven that you worship, who allows individuals who are attracted to members of their own gender to have temple recommends........?

Daniel2

If you say you are, you did.

[KevinG]

This appears to suggest that an individual with attractions towards those of his same gender is not "morally straight."

What evidence do you have that the Boy Scout in the news article you commented on is "a participant in homosexual activities"?

None of the above... the boy in question was openly advocating homosexuality and atheism in opposition to the oath and values of the Boy Scouts.

[KevinG]

I wish the Church would initiate a program for the boys that have no interest in Scouts.

www.dutytogod.lds.org

[Daniel2]

None of the above... the boy in question was openly advocating homosexuality and atheism in opposition to the oath and values of the Boy Scouts.

Could you elaborate? What facts lead you to claim that Ryan was "openly advocating homosexuality" OR "openly advocating atheism"?

Daniel2

[KevinG]

Could you elaborate? What facts lead you to claim that Ryan was "openly advocating homosexuality" OR "openly advocating atheism"?

Daniel2

But Boys Scouts spokesman Smith told NBC News that Andresen was no longer eligible for membership in Scouting because he had informed his unit leadership that he does not agree to Scouting’s principle of 'Duty to God' and does not meet the membership standard on sexual orientation.

[thesometimesaint]

www.dutytogod.lds.org

I appreciate the Duty to God Award, but it is still part Scouting. I had an independent program in mind. Maybe along the same lines as the program for the girls.

[KevinG]

I appreciate the Duty to God Award, but it is still part Scouting. I had an independent program in mind. Maybe along the same lines as the program for the girls.

It is not part scouting at all. Read the materials. If you can find a requirement to be involved with Boy Scouts I would be interested in seeing it.

This program is exactly what you are describing.

[thesometimesaint]

The Duty to God Award is part and parcel of being a Scout. Non Scouts are not eligible for the award.

[KevinG]

The Duty to God Award is part and parcel of being a Scout. Non Scouts are not eligible for the award.

You are confusing the Duty to God program with the Faith In God and On My Honor awards which are the LDS Church version of the Scouting religious award.

Please look at the program I linked to find a stand alone, long term program for the growth of Latter-day Saint youth. Just as you ordered.

[ERayR]

The Duty to God Award is part and parcel of being a Scout. Non Scouts are not eligible for the award.

Tss here is the description from the Boy Scouts. Duty to God is NOT a scouting program.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-879_WB.pdf

What are the religious emblems programs?

The religious emblems programs are programs created by the various

religious groups to encourage youth to grow stronger in their faith. The

religious groups—not the Boy Scouts of America—have created the religious

emblems programs themselves.

The Boy Scouts of America has approved of these programs and allows

the recognition to be worn on the official uniform, but each religious

organization develops and administers its own program.

[RobertAC]

Tss here is the description from the Boy Scouts. Duty to God is NOT a scouting program.

http://www.scouting..../512-879_WB.pdf

What are the religious emblems programs?

The religious emblems programs are programs created by the various

religious groups to encourage youth to grow stronger in their faith. The

religious groups—not the Boy Scouts of America—have created the religious

emblems programs themselves.

The Boy Scouts of America has approved of these programs and allows

the recognition to be worn on the official uniform, but each religious

organization develops and administers its own program.

Interesting. There is a Buddhist medal. I am a little surprised. Buddhism does not render any opinion about the existence of God or any supreme beings or their relationship to humans.

That is not to say that you cannot go into a Buddhist Vihara/temple and find lots of statues of gilded deities, but these deities are often adopted from Hinduism or a local belief.

Buddhism tends to be an atheistic religion in classical sense of the word "atheist." We don't tend to rely upon a divine being for salvation, and we don't preach a faith in God.

I'm surprised that BSA would let us in.