Boy Scouts

[tyler90az]

"Warren compared the rate of victimization in the Scouts — about 1.4 to 2.1 youth per 100,000 — to the nationally-reported incidence of child abuse by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, which found that in 1980, 70 per 100,000 children experience sexual exploitation each year."

http://news.yahoo.co...-072253556.html

It is just sad that image had to take precedence above people. This whole thing could have been a non-story if BSA would report all accused leaders to authorities immediately. Do not worry about anyone being falsly accused, let the authorities deal with that. The boys safety must come first. They had a good system in place to prevent offenders from reentering, roughly 125 reoffenders. Although that system was, from the sounds of it, more about protecting image then anything else.

Another sad case where image is God.

[USU78]

"Warren compared the rate of victimization in the Scouts — about 1.4 to 2.1 youth per 100,000 — to the nationally-reported incidence of child abuse by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, which found that in 1980, 70 per 100,000 children experience sexual exploitation each year."

http://news.yahoo.co...-072253556.html

It is just sad that image had to take precedence above people. This whole thing could have been a non-story if BSA would report all accused leaders to authorities immediately. Do not worry about anyone being falsly accused, let the authorities deal with that. The boys safety must come first. They had a good system in place to prevent offenders from reentering, roughly 125 reoffenders. Although that system was, from the sounds of it, more about protecting image then anything else.

Another sad case where image is God.

In a post-McNews Net era where uninformed soundbite trumps discussion and ignorant opinion trumps reasoned, researched argument . . . what do you expect?

[KevinG]

It is just sad that image had to take precedence above people. This whole thing could have been a non-story if BSA would report all accused leaders to authorities immediately.

Of course this is judging 1965 through 1985 reporting by a 2012 standard. The BSA has been ahead of the curve as proven by their rate of incidents being 1/35 the rate of the general population.

If they had released the unproven or questionable records to the police back in the 60's-80's I imagine they would have been in a lot of legal hot water.

[tyler90az]

Of course this is judging 1965 through 1985 reporting by a 2012 standard. The BSA has been ahead of the curve as proven by their rate of incidents being 1/35 the rate of the general population.

If they had released the unproven or questionable records to the police back in the 60's-80's I imagine they would have been in a lot of legal hot water.

I think I am misunderstanding your last statement. The BSA is not responsible for investigating a child predator. Hmmm...

[KevinG]

I think I am misunderstanding your last statement. The BSA is not responsible for investigating a child predator. Hmmm...

No they are not. The BSA is not a police force or a social services agency. During the dates specified they had no legal recourse to investigate only to track and prevent suspected predators from having positions of responsibility.

They went above and beyond what most organizations did in the 60s-80s by tracking and keeping known predators out of their ranks. Mandatory reporting laws were not on the books until the 70s at the earliest and in some states it is still not the law.

I find the contrast between the complaints that they haven't done enough about abusers with the complaints that they are preventing openly gay leaders (who abuse 11-17 year olds at a 30/1 rate over the general population) to be telling.

[california boy]

No they are not. The BSA is not a police force or a social services agency. During the dates specified they had no legal recourse to investigate only to track and prevent suspected predators from having positions of responsibility.

They went above and beyond what most organizations did in the 60s-80s by tracking and keeping known predators out of their ranks. Mandatory reporting laws were not on the books until the 70s at the earliest and in some states it is still not the law.

I find the contrast between the complaints that they haven't done enough about abusers with the complaints that they are preventing openly gay leaders (who abuse 11-17 year olds at a 30/1 rate over the general population) to be telling.

What do you find telling about it? Do you not think that the vast majority of gay men are just as disgusted with pedophiles as you are?

[KevinG]

What do you find telling about it? Do you not think that the vast majority of gay men are just as disgusted with pedophiles as you are?

In case you didn't pick up on it... the selective outrage that the BSA makes policies intended to protect youth morally while complaining that they aren't doing enough to protect youth morally.

[USU78]

What do you find telling about it? Do you not think that the vast majority of gay men are just as disgusted with pedophiles as you are?

CFR

We know that cb is disgusted, and we applaud him for his disgust, which we share.

[Daniel2]

gay leaders...abuse 11-17 year olds at a 30/1 rate over the general population.

CFR.

Daniel2

[KevinG]

CFR.

Daniel2

You discounted the source the last thread where this came up.

http://www.hli.org/f...terosexuals.pdf

http://downloads.frc.../EF/EF08L46.pdf

[california boy]

CFR

We know that cb is disgusted, and we applaud him for his disgust, which we share.

You might want to read some scientific research on this.

Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children and are preadolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so. The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual

It is not uncomon for hated groups to be labled as child molesters and vilified by those that want to increas prejudice against them.

Members of disliked minority groups are often stereotyped as representing a danger to the majority's most vulnerable members. For example, Jews in the Middle Ages were accused of murdering Christian babies in ritual sacrifices. Black men in the United States were often lynched after being falsely accused of raping White women.

In a similar fashion, gay people have often been portrayed as a threat to children. Back in 1977, when Anita Bryant campaigned successfully to repeal a Dade County (FL) ordinance prohibiting anti-gay discrimination, she named her organization "Save Our Children," and warned that "a particularly deviant-minded [gay] teacher could sexually molest children" (Bryant, 1977, p. 114). [

[USU78]

The only way, cb, to make the uncomfortable truth go away is to assert, as virtually every homophile advocate does, that the abuse of boys by homosexual pedophiles is not a homosexual phenomenon. It is.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The only way, cb, to make the uncomfortable truth go away is to assert, as virtually every homophile advocate does, that the abuse of boys by homosexual pedophiles is not a homosexual phenomenon. It is.

So straight guys dont sexually abuse boys? This is commical. If they did then they would not be straight. Good point.

[Daniel2]

You discounted the source the last thread where this came up.

http://www.hli.org/f...terosexuals.pdf

http://downloads.frc.../EF/EF08L46.pdf

Got it. And I'll make the same objection as to the credibility of your sources, again. Every major psychological, psychiatric, and pediatric organization disagrees with any assertion that pedophilia is causually-related to the perpitrators' heterosexual OR homosexual orientation ("orientation" is separate and distinct from "behavior"--therefore, it is incorrect to presume that "same-sex pedophilc behavior" is causually-related to "same-sex sexual orientation").

The term "gay" is an indication of sexual orientation, not necessarily behavior. As an indiciation of orientation, it is incorrect to use the term "gay leaders" in the context of predicting individuals' likelihood of committing pedophilic behaviors, even if such behaviors are committed by someone of 'same-sex' (just as it would be inapporpriate to use the term "straight" when attempting to predict individuals' likelihood of committing pedophilic behaviors, even if such behaviors are committed by someone of the opposite-sex).

Additionally, the sources don't seem to match the claims I understood you to be making. Namely, in a dicussion about Boy Scout leaders, you claim that "gay leaders" sexually abuse boys at a much higher rate--but the first link discusses pedophilia committed by Catholic priests, and the second isn't about scout leaders, either.

Generally speaking (and even moreso, when specifically discussing pedophilia), those that interchangeably use the terms "homosexual" AND "same-sex" in reference to sexual behaviors are obfuscating the issue, instead of clarifying it.

Daniel2

[KevinG]

The study didn't say homosexuality causes pedophelia and neither did I.

What the study did show was in the context of the catholic priesthood (a position of male authority analogous to the relationship beween leaders and boys in the BSA) ephebophelia (not to be confused with pedophilia) occurred at a rate of 30 to 1 by priests who self identified as homosexual vs heterosexual.

If you have a study (not just commentary by organizations that advocate for homosexuals) that shows this is not the case then I am open to seeing it and discussing it.

Until you show that I feel the BSA is justified in supporting the BSAs decision to take a moral stance on openly (behavior not simply orientation) gay leaders when it comes to leading, teaching and nurturing 11-18 year old boys.

Please don't accuse me of conflating orientation and behavior then do it yourself to defend your position.

[ERayR]

Got it. And I'll make the same objection as to the credibility of your sources, again. Every major psychological, psychiatric, and pediatric organization disagrees with any assertion that pedophilia is causually-related to the perpitrators' heterosexual OR homosexual orientation ("orientation" is separate and distinct from "behavior"--therefore, it is incorrect to presume that "same-sex pedophilc behavior" is causually-related to "same-sex sexual orientation").

Definition:

Definition of HOMOSEXUAL

1

: of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex

2

: of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex

By definition a male pedophile who molests male children is homosexual.

That said all homosexuals are not pedophiles but male on male pedophilia is definitely homosexual behavior. Is it prevalent? I have no way of knowing.

[Daniel2]

Another clash in the news, today:

Almost-Eagle Scout denied award because he is gay, mom says

Courtesy of the Andresen family

Ryan Andresen had completed the requirements to earn his Eagle Scout award, but his mother, Karen, said he was told by his Scoutmaster he won't get it because he recently came out as gay. The Boy Scouts of America have a longstanding policy banning gay Scouts and leaders.

By Miranda Leitsinger, NBC News

Ryan Andresen had recently completed the requirements to earning his Eagle Scout award, including building a "tolerance wall" for victims of bullying like himself, but his Scoutmaster would not sign off on honoring him with the Boy Scouts’ highest ranking because he is gay, his mother said.

The Boy Scouts of America have a longstanding policy denying membership to gay leaders and Scouts, which they reaffirmed earlier this year after a two-year confidential review of the controversial ban. Andresen’s father, Eric, resigned as assistant Scoutmaster after the Scoutmaster for Troop 212 in Moraga, Calif., confirmed Tuesday night that Ryan wouldn’t get the award, Karen Andresen told NBC News.

“I want everyone to know that [the Eagle award] should be based on accomplishment, not your sexual orientation. Ryan entered Scouts when he was six years old and in no way knew what he was," said Karen Andresen, 49, a stay-at-home mother of three. "I think right now the Scoutmaster is sending Ryan the message that he’s not a valued human being and I want Ryan to know that he is valued … and that people care about him.”

Ryan, 17, came out in July. Andresen said Scoutmaster Rainer Del Valle knew about Ryan's sexual orientation and they had no idea he wouldn't sign off on the official paperwork.

It was “a total shock," she said, adding that Ryan was led all along to believe his Scoutmaster would do so.

Eric Andresen, a 52-year-old owner of a property management company, is working on an appeal of the decision, said Karen, who has also started an online petition calling for her son to receive his award. Other assistant Scoutmasters supported Ryan's bid for the Eagle Scout ranking, she said.

Del Valle and the Boy Scouts of America did not immediately respond to phone calls and emails seeking comment.

To earn the Eagle rank, which is in its 100th year, Scouts must progress through five lower ranks, earn 21 merit badges and serve six months in a leadership position, among completing other tasks. More than two million young men have earned the rank.

Courtesy of Andresen family

Ryan Andresen stands in front of a "Tolerance Wall," his final Boy Scouts' project that he worked on with elementary school children. It consists of 288 tiles that depict acts of kindness.

Dozens of Eagle Scouts said after the Boy Scouts, a private organization, reaffirmed its policy banning gays that they had returned their medals, badges or membership cards in protest. But other Eagle Scouts said they agreed with the policy. At the time, BSA spokesman Deron Smith said there were no plans to revisit the membership guidelines.

Activist groups stepped up their campaign to end the policy after Jennifer Tyrrell, den leader of her son’s Tiger Cub pack in Bridgeport, Ohio, was removed from her post in April because she is a lesbian.

A number of troops have said they don’t follow the policy, and some companies and charities have recently said they would not contribute to the Boy Scouts because of the ban.

Technology giant Intel Corporation recently told NBC News that since Jan. 1 it has required troops and councils to sign a document verifying that they comply with their non-discrimination policy in order to receive donations. The United Way of Greater Cleveland, which last year gave nearly $100,000 to the Boy Scouts of America, Greater Cleveland Council, said the organization would no longer qualify to receive such funding after it revised its diversity policy to include sexual orientation.

The "comments" section of the article above is a fascinating microcosm of the feelings/debate from several opposing viewpoints.

I know many here will disagree with me, but actions like this don't seem like a long-term winning strategy for the BSA.

Darin

[Daniel2]

The study didn't say homosexuality causes pedophelia and neither did I.

What the study did show was in the context of the catholic priesthood (a position of male authority analogous to the relationship beween leaders and boys in the BSA) ephebophelia (not to be confused with pedophilia) occurred at a rate of 30 to 1 by priests who self identified as homosexual vs heterosexual.

If you have a study (not just commentary by organizations that advocate for homosexuals) that shows this is not the case then I am open to seeing it and discussing it.

Until you show that I feel the BSA is justified in supporting the BSAs decision to take a moral stance on openly (behavior not simply orientation) gay leaders when it comes to leading, teaching and nurturing 11-18 year old boys.

The following site (from the Psychology Department of the University of Califorina Davis) gives a thorough examination of the topic, including listing and analysing what the scientific studies say on the subject: http://psychology.uc...olestation.html

Among the studies listed:

What About Claims That Scientific Research Proves Gay Men Are Likely To Molest Children?

Some conservative groups have argued that scientific research strongly supports their claims that homosexuality and pedophilia are linked. The Family Research Council has produced what is perhaps the most extensive attempt to document this claim. It is an article by Timothy J. Dailey titled Homosexuality and Child Abuse.

With 76 footnotes, many of them referring to papers in scientific journals, it appears at first glance to be a thorough and scholarly discussion of the issue. On further examination, however, its central argument – that "the evidence indicates that homosexual men molest boys at rates grossly disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls" – doesn't hold up.

In the following section, the main sources cited by Dailey and the FRC to support their claim are reviewed. The papers are listed in the same order in which they are first cited by the FRC article.

1. Freund et al. (1989). Heterosexuality, homosexuality, and erotic age preference. Journal of Sex Research, 26, 107-117.
   This article is discussed above in the "Other Approaches" section. As the FRC concedes, it contradicts their argument. The abstract summarizes the authors' conclusion: "Findings indicate that homosexual males who preferred mature partners responded no more to male children than heterosexual males who preferred mature partners responded to female children."
   
2. Silverthorne & Quinsey. (2000). Sexual partner age preferences of homosexual and heterosexual men and women. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 29, 67-76.
   The FRC cites this study to challenge the Freund et al. data (see the previous paper above). However, the methodologies were quite different. Freund and his colleagues used a sample that included sex offenders and they assessed sexual arousal with a physiological measure similar to that described below for the 1988 Marshall et al. study. Silverthorne and Quinsey used a sample of community volunteers who were asked to view pictures of human faces and use a 7-point scale to rate their sexual attractiveness. The apparent ages of the people portrayed in the pictures was originally estimated by Dr. Silverthorne to range from 15 to 50. However, a group of independent raters perceived the male faces to range in age from 18 to 58, and the female faces to range from 19 to 60.
   The article doesn't report the data in great detail (e.g., average ratings are depicted only in a graphic; the actual numbers aren't reported) and the authors provide contradictory information about the rating scale (they describe it as a 7-point scale but also say it ranged from 0 to 7, which constitutes an 8-point scale). In either case, it appears that none of the pictures was rated as "very sexually attractive" (a rating of 7). Rather, the highest average ratings were approximately 5.
   On average, gay men rated the 18-year old male faces the most attractive (average rating = about 5), with attractiveness ratings declining steadily for older faces. They rated the 58-year old male faces 2, on average. By contrast, heterosexual men rated the 25-year old female faces the most attractive (about 5), with the 18- and 28-year old female faces rated lower (between 2 and 3) and the 60-year old female faces rated the least attractive (about 1).
   A serious problem with this study is that the researchers didn't control for the possibility that some of the faces pictured in the photos might simply have been more or less physically attractive than the others, independent of their age or gender. The researchers explicitly acknowledged this shortcoming, speculating that the women's faces in the 25-year old group might have been more attractive than women's faces in the other age groups. But they didn't address the possibility that the attractiveness of the male and female faces may not have been comparable.
   This issue could have been addressed in various ways. For example, prior to collecting data, the researchers could have started with a large number of photographs and asked a group of independent raters to evaluate the general physical attractiveness of the face in each photo; these ratings could have been used to select photos for the experiment that were equivalent in attractiveness. Getting independent ratings of experimental stimuli in this way is a common procedure in social psychological research.
   Thus, even if one accepts the questionable assumption that this study is relevant, it doesn't support the FRC's contention that gay men are more likely than heterosexual men to be child molesters for several reasons:
   

• the researchers failed to control for the varying attractiveness of the different photos;
  
• all of the faces portrayed in the photos were perceived to be at least 18; and
  
• the study merely assessed judgments of sexual attractiveness rather than the research participants' sexual arousal.
  
• Blanchard et al. (2000). Fraternal birth order and sexual orientation in pedophiles. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 29, 463-478.
  This study categorized convicted sex offenders according to whether they molested or reported sexual attraction to boys only, girls only, or both boys and girls. These groups were labeled, respectively, homosexual pedophiles, heterosexual pedophiles, and bisexual pedophiles. This classification referred to their attractions to children. Adult sexual orientation (or even whether the men had an adult sexual orientation) wasn't assessed.
  
• Elliott et al. (1995). Child sexual abuse prevention: What offenders tell us. Child Abuse & Neglect, 19, 579-594.
  In this study, child sex offenders were interviewed. Their sexual orientation (gay, heterosexual, bisexual) wasn't assessed. The authors drew from their findings to suggest strategies for how parents and children can prevent sexual victimization. It is noteworthy that none of those strategies involved avoiding gay men.
  
• Jenny et al. (1994). Are children at risk for sexual abuse by homosexuals? Pediatrics, 94, 41-44.
  This study, described above in the section on "Other Approaches," contradicts the FRC's argument. The FRC faults the study because the researchers didn't directly interview perpetrators but instead relied on the victims' medical charts for information about the offender's sexual orientation. However, other studies cited favorably by the FRC (and summarized in this section) similarly relied on chart data (Erickson et al., 1988) or did not directly assess the sexual orientation of perpetrators (Blanchard et al. 2000; Elliott et al. 1995; Marshall et al., 1988). Thus, the FRC apparently considers this method a weakness only when it leads to results they dislike.
  
• Marshall et al. (1988). Sexual offenders against male children: Sexual preference. Behaviour Research and Therapy, 26, 383-391.
  In this study, the researchers compared 21 men who had sexually molested a male under 16 years (and at least 5 years younger than themselves) to 18 unemployed men who were not known to have molested a child. Over a series of sessions, each man watched color slides of nude males and females of various ages and listened to audiotaped descriptions of both coercive and consensual sexual interactions between a man and a boy. During the sessions, each man sat in a private booth, where he was instructed to lower his trousers and underwear and attach a rubber tube to his penis. The tube detected any changes in penis circumference, with increases interpreted as indicating sexual arousal.
  The FRC cites this study as showing that "a homosexual and a heterosexual subgroup can be delineated among these offenders." This is true but hardly relevant to their claims.
  The researchers categorized 7 offenders who were more aroused overall by the male nudes than the female nudes as the homosexual subgroup. They categorized 14 offenders who were more aroused overall by the female nudes as the heterosexual subgroup. The offenders were not asked their sexual orientation (gay, straight, bisexual) and the paper does not report any information about the nature of the offenders' adult sexual relationships, or even if they had any such relationships.
  
• Bickley & Beech. (2001). Classifying child abusers: Its relevance to theory and clinical practice. International Journal Of Offender Therapy And Comparative Criminology, 45, 51-69.
  This is a literature review and theoretical paper that discusses the strengths and weaknesses of various systems for classifying child molesters. In citing this study, the FRC says it:
  
  refers to homosexual pedophiles as a "distinct group." The victims of homosexual pedophiles "were more likely to be strangers, that they were more likely to have engaged in paraphiliac behavior separate from that involved in the offence, and that they were more likely to have past convictions for sexual offences.... Other studies [showed a] greater risk of reoffending than those who had offended against girls" and that the "recidivism rate for male-victim offenders is approximately twice that for female-victim offenders."
  
  In reality, however, the paper was summarizing the findings of other studies, not reporting new data. In the passage excerpted by the FRC, the authors were discussing published papers that used a classification system focusing entirely on the sex of victims (not whether the perpetrator is straight or gay). Here is the complete text (the passages that FRC omitted are highlighted):
  "Grubin and Kennedy (1991) reported that when dividing sex offenders based simply on the sex of their victims, offenders against boys stood out as a distinct group. They noted that their victims were more likely to be strangers, that they were more likely to have engaged in paraphiliac behavior separate from that involved in the offence, and they were more likely to have past convictions for sexual offences. Other studies have employed the sex-of-victim approach in the prediction of future risk, with offenders who have sexually abused boys or both boys and girls reported as having more victims and being at greater risk of reoffending than those who had offended against girls only [bibliographic references omitted]. In the nondiagnostic remarks, DSM-IV (APA, 1994) claims that the recidivism rate for male-victim offenders is approximately twice that for female-victim offenders, and although not demonstrating such a marked difference, Furby,Weinrott, and Blackshaw (1989), in an extensive review of recidivism rates, found that reoffending was higher for male victim offenders. [¶] However, the sex-of-victim distinction has not been consistently found, and contrasting findings have been reported in studies that have demonstrated no differences in recidivism rates between the groups [bibliographic references omitted]. Furthermore, Abel, Becker, Murphy, and Flanagan (1981) found that those child molesters who offended against girls reported more than twice as many victims as those who had offended against boys, a finding contrary to the hypothesized outcome." (p. 56)
  
• Jay & Young. (1977). The gay report: Lesbians and gay men speak out about sexual experiences and lifestyles. New York: Summit.
  This book, published nearly 30 years ago by a team of writer-activists, is not a scientific study. The authors' survey methodology is not reported in detail and, because it was a journalistic work, the survey was never subjected to scientific peer review.
  
• Erickson et al. (1988). Behavior patterns of child molesters. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 17, 77-86.
  This study was based on a retrospective review of the medical records of male sex offenders admitted to the Minnesota Security Hospital between 1975 and 1984. Apparently, 70% of the men abused girls, 26% abused boys, and 4% abused children of both sexes. (The paper is unclear in that it doesn't explain how perpetrators with multiple victims were counted.) The paper asserts in passing that "Eighty-six percent of offenders against males described themselves as homosexual or bisexual" (p. 83). However, no details are provided about how this information was ascertained, making it difficult to interpret. Nor did the authors report the number of homosexual versus bisexual offenders, a distinction that the Groth and Birnbaum study (described above) indicates is relevant.
  

In summary, the scientific sources cited by the FRC report do not support their argument. Most of the studies they referenced did not even assess the sexual orientation of abusers. Two studies explicitly concluded that sexual orientation and child molestation are unrelated. Notably, the FRC failed to cite the 1978 study by Groth and Birnbaum, which also contradicted their argument. Only one study (Erickson et al., 1988) might be interpreted as supporting the FRC argument, and it failed to detail its measurement procedures and did not differentiate bisexual from homosexual offenders.

Do Any Studies Claim To Show That Homosexuals Are More Likely To Molest Children?

One individual has claimed to have data that prove homosexuals to be child molesters at a higher rate than heterosexuals. That person is Paul Cameron. As detailed elsewhere on this site, Cameron's survey data are subject to so many methodological flaws as to be virtually meaningless. Even so, his assertions are sometimes quoted by antigay organizations in their attempts to link homosexuality with child sexual abuse.

In a 1985 article published in Psychological Reports, Cameron purported to review published data to answer the question, "Do those who commit homosexual acts disproportionately incorporate children into their sexual practices?" (p. 1227). He concluded that "at least one-third of the sexual attacks upon youth are homosexual" (p. 1228) and that "those who are bi- to homosexual are proportionately much more apt to molest youth" than are heterosexuals (p. 1231).

Cameron's claims hinge on the fallacious assumption that all male-male molestations are committed by homosexuals. Moreover, a careful reading of Cameron's paper reveals several false statements about the literature he claimed to have reviewed.

For example, he cited the Groth and Birnbaum (1978) study mentioned previously as evidencing a 3:2 ratio of "heterosexual" (i.e., female victim) to "homosexual" (i.e., male victim) molestations, and he noted that "54% of all the molestations in this study were performed by bisexual or homosexual practitioners" (p. 1231). However, Groth and Birnbaum reported that none of the men in their sample had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation, and that none of the 22 bisexual men were more attracted to adult males than to adult females. The "54%" statistic reported by Cameron doesn't appear anywhere in the Groth and Birnbaum (1978) article, nor does Cameron explain its derivation.

It is also noteworthy that, although Cameron assumed that the perpetrators of male-male molestations were all homosexual, he assumed that not all male-female molestations were committed by heterosexuals. He incorporated a "bisexual correction" into his data manipulations to increase further his estimate of the risk posed to children by homosexual/bisexual men.

In the latter half of his paper, Cameron considered whether "homosexual teachers have more frequent sexual interaction with their pupils" (p. 1231). Based on 30 instances of sexual contact between a teacher and pupil reported in ten different sources published between 1920 and 1982, Cameron concluded that "a pupil would appear about 90 times more likely to be sexually assaulted by a homosexual practitioner" (p.1232); the ratio rose to 100 times when Cameron added his bisexual correction.

This ratio is meaningless because no data were obtained concerning the actual sexual orientation of the teachers involved; as before, Cameron assumed that male-male contacts were perpetrated by homosexuals. Furthermore, Cameron's rationale for selecting particular sources appears to have been completely arbitrary. He described no systematic method for reviewing the literature, and apparently never reviewed the voluminous literature on the sexual development of children and adolescents. His final choice of sources appears to have slanted his findings toward what Cameron described as "the relative absence in the scientific literature of heterosexual teacher-pupil sexual events coupled with persistent, albeit infrequent, homosexual teacher-pupil sexual interactions" (p. 1232).

A subsequent paper by Cameron and others (Cameron, Proctor, Coburn, Forde, Larson, & Cameron, 1986) described data collected in a door-to-door survey in seven U.S. cities and towns, and generally repeated the conclusions reached in Cameron (1985). Even Cameron himself admitted that his conclusions in this study are "based upon small numbers of data points" (Cameron, 2005, p. 230). As before, male-male sexual assaults were referred to as "homosexual" molestations (e.g., Abstract, p.327) and the perpetrators' sexual orientation apparently was not assessed. This study also suffers from fatal methodological problems, which are detailed elsewhere on this site.

In yet another article published in Psychological Reports, Cameron claimed to have reviewed data about foster parents in Illinois and found that 34% were perpetrated by a foster parent against a child of the same sex, that is, female-female or male-male (Cameron, 2005). Not only did Cameron again make the fallacious claim that all male-male molestations are committed by homosexuals, he also made the same claim about female-female molestations. Once again, he had no data about the actual sexual orientations of the molesters.

Cameron continues to produce reports that essentially repeat the same inaccurate claims. Perhaps one of the best indicators of his diminishing credibility in this area is that his work was not cited in the 2004 FRC report discussed in detail above.

It's conclusion (after examining numerous studies, as listed, at the bottom of the page):

Conclusion

The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.

Daniel2

[USU78]

So straight guys dont sexually abuse boys? This is commical. If they did then they would not be straight. Good point.

If someone otherwise heterosexual engages in homosexual acts, he is bisexual.

Come on . . . this ain't rocket science.

[california boy]

If someone otherwise heterosexual engages in homosexual acts, he is bisexual.

Come on . . . this ain't rocket science.

There has been recently in the news a famous case in Pennsylvania. Sandusky was convicted of molesting young boys in his charge. He is married and has two young girls. There is NOTHING that has ever indicated that he was homosexual or that he ever had sexual relationships with other MEN.

Obviously for you, prejudice and ignorance trumps scientific research. That ain't rocket science either.

[ERayR]

There has been recently in the news a famous case in Pennsylvania. Sandusky was convicted of molesting young boys in his charge. He is married and has two young girls. There is NOTHING that has ever indicated that he was homosexual or that he ever had sexual relationships with other MEN.

Obviously for you, prejudice and ignorance trumps scientific research. That ain't rocket science either.

Except for the fact that he molested boys, therefore by definition he committed homosexual acts. Ergo he has homosexual tendencies.

[KevinG]

I'm not interested in defining what is or is not homosexual behavior when it comes to molesting young men.

I do have an interest in defending the BSAs position that open homosexuality is a choice that does not mesh with the moral standards that the BSA teaches and are therefore not appropriate role models for leaders in the BSA.

I also have suspicions that there may be a risk factor for avowed homosexuals in close proximity to young men ages 11-18. I would not allow male leaders for young women's activities ages 11-18.

Thank you Daniel for the links. I will peruse those when I get some time and add them to the other studies I cited as information on the subject.

[california boy]

Except for the fact that he molested boys, therefore by definition he committed homosexual acts. Ergo he has homosexual tendencies.

I see. Why believe all of the scientific studies and data that state a person is not gay when he molests boys, he is a pedophile. It is much easier to justify prejudices against gays when you can paint them as pedophiles. That is way more important than the facts isn't it. I know I am not going to change your mind on this. The prejudice is way too deep for facts to matter.

[california boy]

I'm not interested in defining what is or is not homosexual behavior when it comes to molesting young men.

I do have an interest in defending the BSAs position that open homosexuality is a choice that does not mesh with the moral standards that the BSA teaches and are therefore not appropriate role models for leaders in the BSA.

I also have suspicions that there may be a risk factor for avowed homosexuals in close proximity to young men ages 11-18. I would not allow male leaders for young women's activities ages 11-18.

Thank you Daniel for the links. I will peruse those when I get some time and add them to the other studies I cited as information on the subject.

So do you have suspicions of priesthood leaders attending girls camp? Are you advocating a change on that church policy? Do you also feel any gay Aaronic Pristhood holder should be barred from all young men's activities?

Prejudice run deep. They are harder to justify when compared to similar situations where prejudice is not part of the conclusion.

[Tacenda]

I'm not interested in defining what is or is not homosexual behavior when it comes to molesting young men.

I do have an interest in defending the BSAs position that open homosexuality is a choice that does not mesh with the moral standards that the BSA teaches and are therefore not appropriate role models for leaders in the BSA.

I also have suspicions that there may be a risk factor for avowed homosexuals in close proximity to young men ages 11-18. I would not allow male leaders for young women's activities ages 11-18.

Thank you Daniel for the links. I will peruse those when I get some time and add them to the other studies I cited as information on the subject.

I wonder if eliminating gay's to join the BSA, will cause a very big decrease in pedophile behaviour. In time we'll find out. My guess is that it'll still go on. It's a cycle sometimes. If you aren't gay but were abused as a child in some cases the abused will become the abuser.