Mormons Codex

[livy111us]

Actually, a personal attack would be to say you have big ears, or something like that. Something that I am not doing. What I am doing is pointing out your lack of ability to try to understand what is being discussed, and your constant interjection with pointless negative comments that a *little* study on your own would clarify.

Again, I didn't say, nor imply that the mesoamerican records were Nephite, only that it is probable that they were made out of the same material. You are drawing that conclusion all on your own. Anthon said that it was similar to a Mexican Zodiac. Similar. Which could possibly mean that they were of mesoamerican origin. These were taken from the plates themselves, not any codex, and would have survived even if every Nephite codex was burned.

Edited August 4, 2012 by livy111us

[cursor]

If Cerro El Vigía has been identified as Hill Cumorah. Would it be expected to find remnants of the massive battles fought there? Hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths in a small area. Bones, weapons of war, etc?

Perhaps. Who might fund such a project? Ideas?

Edited August 5, 2012 by cursor

[cursor]

Cerro el Vigia after all means sacred mountain.

From my knowledge-bank, "vigia" means "lookout" or "watchtower".

[cursor]

But what do I know. I didn't attend the FAIR Conference.

I suspect that that singular fact has little to do with what you don't know.

Edited August 5, 2012 by cursor

[cursor]

"... having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would

destroy

them

) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni."

Mormon 6:6

Would not that have included flammable Maya codices written on bark? So why did these survive to reveal Nephite BoM geography?

Um ... the text of the Book of Mormon, which very effectively paints the geographic setting (mostly from retrospective descriptions by Mormon) comes from ancient metallic plates (not flammable codices)--received by Joseph Smith from Moroni (Mormon's son).

[cursor]

The hill Cumorah/Ramah had to have been relatively large to 1) be a strategic military position, and 2) to accommodate the number of persons involved in the conflict.

The hill Cumorah in Palmyra NY is a mere 1,600 ft x 2,110 ft (at its base) ... and its highest point is just 115 ft higher than the surrounding plain.

The Cerro El Vigia is 13.200 ft in diameter at the base ... and its highest point is a whopping 2,000 ft higher than the surrounding plain (hence the name "Cerro El Vigia," meaning "Watchtower/Lookout Hill").

[ Google Earth it: 18.455033°,-95.352499° ]

Seriously ... if you were the chief military commander charged with the responsibility of protecting your entire nation from absolute annihilation, which strategic position would you choose?

Edited August 5, 2012 by cursor

[poulsenll]

I have a second suggestion for Ramah/Cumorah.

It is located near Misantla, Veracruz and in my opinion is a better fit to the text. In addition it is also located near another hill(mountain) with the name Corn Hill. A local name for this hill(mountain) is Bone Hill suggesting that there may have been ancient bones found in the area.See the following article discussing this possibility.

A proposal for the Land of Cumorah/RamahA proposal for the Land of Cumorah/Ramah

Larry P

Edited August 6, 2012 by poulsenll

[Anijen]

I have a second suggestion for Ramah/Cumorah.

It is located near Misantla, Veracruz and in my opinion is a better fit to the text. In addition it is also located near another hill(mountain) with the name Corn Hill. A local name for this hill(mountain) is Bone Hill suggesting that there may have been ancient bones found in the area.See the following article discussing this possibility.

A proposal for the Land of Cumorah/RamahA proposal for the Land of Cumorah/Ramah

Larry P

I used google earth and I like this very well. I have to say not too many posters when they post I learn something, but it has always been that way with your posts.

Thanks

Edited August 6, 2012 by Anijen

[Brant Gardner]

Would not that have included flammable Maya codices written on bark? So why did these survive to reveal Nephite BoM geography?

Native Mesoamericans continued to write long after there were no Nephites. Surviving Maya texts are not considered to be from Book of Mormon time periods. The Book of Mormon specifically indicates that the Lamanites wrote (interestingly indicating that they learned from the Nephites). Persistence of records at the time of the conquest says nothing at all about Lamanite destruction of any Nephite records that they might have found.

[Robert F. Smith]

I really liked his discoveries of an annihilation of people in the Chiapas depression around 400 AD. Critics and LDS alike claim that the Nephites were not the Mayan, but lived among the Mayan. If they were one and the same, how do you explain the Mayan culture continuing on after 400 AD? History as well as this discovery shows that there were many factions among the Maya who had conflicts with each other, sometimes to the extinction of certain Mayan groups.

Of course, the Nephites were not Maya. The Maya were not in the Chiapas depression along the Grijalva River. The Nephites were more likely associated with the Mixe-Zoque peoples who live there now, and who may be the descendants of the Olmec.

[cursor]

I learned the other day that since the Mormon Studies Review is on indefinite hold, the Maxwell Institute has tasked another full-time editor with expediting the publication of Mormon's Codex. I am to have finalized maps (they will be in color) submitted to MI by mid next month.

[robuchan]

I learned the other day that since the Mormon Studies Review is on indefinite hold, the Maxwell Institute has tasked another full-time editor with expediting the publication of Mormon's Codex. I am to have finalized maps (they will be in color) submitted to MI by mid next month.

Is your father publishing his book through the MI?

[cursor]

Yes. It is possible that Deseret Book will co-publish. We'll see.

[robuchan]

Yes. It is possible that Deseret Book will co-publish. We'll see.

Are you sure it's the MI, because I thought MI was not doing apologetics anymore. hmmm maybe Hamblin and Peterson got bad info or something...

[cursor]

The Mormon's Codex editing process at the Maxwell Institute has been ongoing for this extensive volume for the last 2½ years. I'm certain that there is no turning the faucet off now.

[ANACO]

Except, of course, the faucet more than 21/2 years ago declared:

"it is important to emphasize that the Nephites were not the Maya"

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=66&chapid=738

Even the newly found MormonInterpreter admits it:

"Although the Nephites cannot be equated with the Maya,"

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the-cultural-context-of-nephite-apostasy/

But, for convenience sake, the Nephites are equated with the Maya anyway.

[Brant Gardner]

But, for convenience sake, the Nephites are equated with the Maya anyway.

If you are saying that there is a trend among those who are not doing the work in the topic to simplistically equate the Maya and the Nephites, you would be correct and have the reason that those who are have to continually clarify that they are not.

If you are suggesting that those who suggest that the Nephites were not the Maya do so anyway, then you have misread the argument.

[cursor]

The Mormon's Codex manuscript is scheduled to be complete and ready to print by October 15. It has now been accepted to be co-published by the Maxwell Institute and Deseret Book. How long the actual printing will take cannot be estimated. It is hoped that it will be available in January or February.

[ANACO]

I cannot wait to make Mormon's Codex a central and prominent part of my personal library.

This is because I have been thoroughly convinced by livy111us and FAIRLDS that the geography of the Book of Mormon is a peripheral aspect of the gospel.

I learned this from reading wonderful articles at FAIRLDS.

For example:

"A common mistake is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center"

&

"When a man becomes a prophet, God does not instantly answer all questions and concerns about all aspects of the gospel (especially peripheral aspects such as geography)."

If I were to state otherwise, MD&D would further restrict my membership which has its privileges. Currently, I cannot start a topic, nor can I post more than 12 messages a day. I am grieved.

Yes, I cannot wait for Mormon's Codex with its purported 9,000 pages to be a central and prominent part of my personal library.

Down with the Heartland! Down with the Hill Cumorah in New York being the hill Cumorah! Down with Joseph Smith knowing what he was talking about until he received a travel book on the Maya written by John Lloyd Stephens! Up with the peripheral aspects of the gospel!

I now believe the geography of the Book of Mormon is a peripheral aspect of the gospel and join in full fellowship with FARMS/BAMF/FAIRLDS in spending the rest of my life on convincing others the location of a peripheral aspect of the gospel to be in Mesoamerica.

Brethren, shall we not go on in so great a cause? Go forward and not backward. Courage, brethren; and on, on to the victory! Let your hearts rejoice, and be exceedingly glad. Let the earth geography break forth into singing!

[ERayR]

Except, of course, the faucet more than 21/2 years ago declared:

"it is important to emphasize that the Nephites were not the Maya"

http://maxwellinstit...d=66&chapid=738

Even the newly found MormonInterpreter admits it:

"Although the Nephites cannot be equated with the Maya,"

http://www.mormonint...phite-apostasy/

But, for convenience sake, the Nephites are equated with the Maya anyway.

You must really work hard to continue this level of misrepresentation.

[ANACO]

You must really work hard to continue this level of misrepresentation.

Why, it's not work at all.

Just type "http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu" in the URL window of your favorite internet browser.

Then type "Maya" in the search box and click the "GO" button.

The site will return numerous articles about the Maya. But only one that states: "it is important to emphasize that the Nephites were not the Maya"

There's even one that declares "An Apparent Maya Prophecy for Our Day" .."that would fall on Sunday, 23 December 2012."

Enjoy.

[ERayR]

Why, it's not work at all.

Just type "http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu" in the URL window of your favorite internet browser.

Then type "Maya" in the search box and click the "GO" button.

The site will return numerous articles about the Maya. But only one that states: "it is important to emphasize that the Nephites were not the Maya"

There's even one that declares "An Apparent Maya Prophecy for Our Day" .."that would fall on Sunday, 23 December 2012."

Enjoy.

Reading for comprehension helps. I thoroughly agree that the Nephites were not the Maya but that doesn't preclude them from intermingling with them.

[rodheadlee]

If the BoM cites were in the Heartland or upstate NY where did they get the gold and silver spoken of in Nephi

2Nephi 5:

15 And I did teach my people to ^abuild buildings, and to ^bwork in all ^cmanner of wood, and of ^diron, and of copper, and of ^ebrass, and of steel, and of ^fgold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

I don't think there are gold and silver deposits until you get to the Rocky Mtns (IIRC). I could be wrong, it's been a long time since I studied the geology of the US.

Edited September 22, 2012 by rodheadlee

[Anijen]

Reading for comprehension helps. I thoroughly agree that the Nephites were not the Maya but that doesn't preclude them from intermingling with them.

I agree with you and just for emphasis, I do not know of a scholar who thinks Maya and Nephite are the same. Not one. I believe they [the Mayan] knew them [Nephites] and probably mingled with them, I would imagine that both sides took from each other some parts of their respective culture and beliefs.

Anaco likes to use absolutes (strawman) and then tries to argue against said strawman. A tactic easily brushed to the side.

[cursor]

I cannot wait to make Mormon's Codex a central and prominent part of my personal library.

Simple, cheap sarcasm. I'd suggest that you make a serious investment in learning, rather than an illogical dismissal.

Yes, I cannot wait for Mormon's Codex with its purported 9,000 pages to be a central and prominent part of my personal library.

Actually it'll be about 10% of that. And that will include more than 1,300 references to external research.

Down with the Heartland!

Exactly, how does ANY "heartland" theory make any sense at all?

Down with the Hill Cumorah in New York being the hill Cumorah!

Seriously, how CAN it be? You've studied the Book of Mormon, right?

Down with Joseph Smith knowing what he was talking about until he received a travel book on the Maya written by John Lloyd Stephens!

Joseph Smith was as proud of his continual learning (eternal progression), as you should you be of yours.

Edited September 23, 2012 by cursor