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cursor Mentor

cursor

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I just listened to the broadcast. What a wonderful man. I wish more scholars called in to the show than those that did.

Totally agreed. I ain't no scholar, but I could have 1) asked more intelligent questions, 2) been more polite, and 3) been full aware when my time was up.

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cursor Mentor

cursor

Posted
Posted

What a wonderful man.

Totally agreed. I get to spend the next 4 days discussing our Mormon's Atlas project (and hearing him present at the FAIR Conference). Driving from here to there is never fun, however.

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Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)

I alerted the FAIR list, but I suspect I was a little late as it was like 3:30. Completely spaced on it when I should have told them earlier today so they could have planned to listen, but luckily did catch this thread right before I had to go for an errand so passed it on. Wasn't able to listen to it myself but I hear there was some less than stellar callers, but your dad was great. Wish they had screened some of their calls.

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Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted

I agree that the calls should have been screened. I kick myself now for not having called in myself.

Live and learn...
livy111us Proficient

livy111us

Posted
Posted

http://www.fairlds.org/fair-conferences/2012-fair-conference/2012-reading-mormons-codex

A few highlights. Okay, A LOT of highlights:

Geography

Given the broad geographical placement already sketched, in the book I identify 25 pointed correspondences between map features near the Isthmus of Tehuantepec on the one hand and Book of Mormon lands on the other. Here I mention only three of the 25:

  1. According to the Book a “narrow pass” connected the land northward with the land southward at a strategic point within the narrow neck. A minor elevation a number of miles long occurs in the geology of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec that provides a “pass” over which ancient (and modern) communication links run northward and southward above annual flood waters.
  2. The account in Alma Chapter 2 of a battle between Nephite rebels and loyalists has it beginning on a hill across the Sidon river immediately east of the capital city; from there the rebels were pursued up to the nearby land of Gideon, then they moved back down to the Sidon, where a battle ensued at a ford across the river. Precise plausible parallels are found in the upper basin of the Grijalva river for all features reported.
  3. The hill Ramah of the Jaredites, which is the same as the hill Cumorah of the Nephites, was where the final extermination of both peoples took place; that hill corresponds In all relevant parameters to Cerro El Vigía in the Tuxtla mountains of south-central Veracruz.

Writing Systems and Records

  1. The Book of Mormon describes literate cultures from the third millennium BC to the end of the record early in the fifth century AD. The Book of Mormon reports multiple writing systems in use. Mesoamerican cultures used writing systems of a similar nature from at least the second millennium BC down to the Spanish conquest. Several distinct scripts were in use in that area as far back as several millennia ago, although little is known about them.
  2. Many uses of written documents are known from Mesoamerica. At least 14 of those uses are represented or are referred to in the Nephite record: for example, records of contemporary events, letters of correspondence, adventures of individual heroes or villains, and genealogies.
  3. In Mesoamerica as in the Book of Mormon lineage histories provided validation of a lineage’s right to rule or other political claims and were displayed and read publicly on ceremonial occasions to assert that fact.

Furthermore, Mesoamerican lineage histories and the Book of Mormon also correspond in more specific ways. Four of them are:

Human Biology

  1. The accounts were geographically selective, telling only of events and figures important for the people whose history they comprised while effectively ignoring groups deemed not significant.
  2. Competition among elite factions for the right to rule meant that histories were considered political weapons; winners tried to eliminate the position of rivals by destroying their records.
  3. The records included predictions about the lineage’s future.
  4. A lineage history also served to define relationships to neighboring peoples.
  5. The skin color of some native American groups in Mexico and Central America according to early Spanish observers were virtually the same as European “white ” people. This corresponds to the Book of Mormon description of its Nephite population as “fair” as against the darker, more numerous Lamanites.
  6. Artistic representations of individuals from ancient Mesoamerica patently show among them Mediterranean-looking folks as well as Asians, Oceanians and Africans. More specifically a minority of specifically Semitic people are seen to be one component among ancient Mesoamericans.
  7. Mesoamerican art also represents men with substantial beards whose parallel in ancient times is almost exclusively with the Near East. Those representations are concentrated in the area in Mesoamerica where and at the times when Book of Mormon peoples apparently dwelt.

Political Economy

Both in Mesoamerica and in Book of Mormon societies an elite formally dominated in political, social and economical terms, similar to the pattern in all ancient civilizations (but completely different from early 19th century rural New York state).

Both sources further confirm that:

  1. Rulers and their dependents held their positions in accordance with an ideology that considered traditional (sometimes “divine”) rulership as part of the natural social order.
  2. The perquisites of the ruling elite granted them legal power and an economic mechanism through tribute assessments to amass considerable wealth. The customs associated with kingship and nobility limited their personal use of that wealth, nevertheless they exercised much power by virtue of it.
  3. Priests were usually closely related to the dominant elite, their teaching of a traditional ideology providing validation for the structure of exploitation.

Society

  1. 1. Mesoamericanist scholars have concluded that the primary social actors in ancient Mesoamerica were not individual persons so much as social groups. Analysis of Book of Mormon societies reveals the same; individuals as such did not count for as much as social elements, especially those based on some version of extended kinship. (Again this view is contrary to the norms of the early 19th century USA).
  2. 2. One of the nuclear family’s primary functions in society, both in Mesoamerica and according to the Nephite record, was to provide instruction to children and youth through frequent use of formal “moral discourse.”
  3. 3. Polygynous marriage was practiced on a limited basis in Mesoamerican as well as in some Book of Mormon societies.
  4. 4. Full-fledged social class structures prevailed in many Mesoamerican societies. The primary distinction was between nobles and commoners, according to both the scripture and native history. Moreover social classes among the Nephites were important during two periods, the first and second centuries BC and the third and fourth centuries AD, both times when Mesoamerican classes were highly visible.
  5. 5. Sociopolitical factions anxious to gain power and privilege were endemic in Book of Mormon societies. Their jostling caused most of the sociopolitical stress the scripture reports. Mesoamerican factionalism was equally pronounced and disruptive.
  6. 6. Religion was an important basis for differentiating social groups according to both secular and Book of Mormon sources. Groups usually had a dominant deity as integrator and protector.

Material Culture (only 10 of 37 total)

  1. Cultivation according to both the Book of Mormon and Mesoamerican sources was entirely without the use of animal power.
  2. “Wine” referred to in the Book of Mormon could have been prepared using several plants, including the same grape as in the Old World; but distilled liquors were not known. Spaniards invariably called native intoxicants “wine,” and they spoke of plots containing maguey plants (the source of the intoxicant pulque) as “vineyards,” a term used in the Book of Mormon for plantings that yielded “wine.”
  3. “Flocks and herds” played a considerable economic role in Nephite life, but it is unclear whether they were domesticated animals or were merely “kept,” nor are the species involved identifiable. Studies of animal utilization in ancient Mesoamerica have shown that a variety of fowls and animals were utilized, in essential agreement with Mormon’s text.
  4. The one Jaredite mention of “elephants” (only in the third millennium BC) corresponds with paleontological discoveries of mastodons that are known to have survived in certain environments in North America as late as 2000 BC and maybe beyond, long past the supposed date of extinction of those animals.
  5. A dearth of timber is reported by Nephite colonists of “the land northward” in the first century BC, it is said that “cement” became the preferred building material. North and west of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec archaeology shows the use of cement began about the first century BC.
  6. Sacred “towers” were constructed by the Nephites that were similar to Mesoamerican “towers” or pyramidal substructures, all such constructions having had a primarily religious purpose. Moreover the one instance, in the book of Helaman, when a private tower structure was used as a site for prayer and religious discourse has Mesoamerican parallels.
  7. The model for Nephite “temples” was specifically the “temple of Solomon,” which featured two non-structural pillars that stood at the sides of the door of the temple. Some Mesoamerican “temples” display similar structurally unnecessary pillars.
  8. Metals are “not supposed to have been” in use in Pre-Classic or Classic Mesoamerica, before about AD 900, but archaeological finds and linguistic data now show that metallurgy was known in Book of Mormon times.
  9. “Silk” and “linen” are mentioned in the Book of Mormon as fabrics utilized by its people. At least five fabrics specified as like silk were reported from native Mexico by the Spaniards. Henequen, a widely used Mesoamerican fiber, made a fabric that was a near equivalent of linen.
  10. Hundreds of miles of roads were constructed in Mesoamerica as early as the Pre-Classic era. Near the time of Christ the Book of Mormon describes not only “roads” but “highways” that were “cast up.” Mesoamerican roads were often “cast up,” that is, constructed with raised fill that was then smooth-surfaced.

Government

(All of the eight correspondences in this list are documented by both Mesoamerican sources and in the Book of Mormon.)

  1. Central to ancient governance was the idea that kings (or at lesser levels, lords or nobles) were divinely designated (or were themselves considered divine) rulers with powers conferred on them “by right.” (This was contrary to New England where the Book of Mormon was first published.)
  2. Governments were evidently fragile; factionalism in the ruling stratum was endemic.
  3. Political schisms or fissions often resulted in dissident social elements fleeing in order to establish independent kingdoms or cultures.
  4. Election or ratification of a new ruler by “vote” of his subjects was sometimes the custom.
  5. Major rulers occupied a “palace”; residences of lesser rulers were not considered “palaces.”
  6. A new (younger) king was sometimes installed before the death of the previous ruler, who then served out his lifespan as “emeritus” king.
  7. The judicial function required a corps of judges who served under the nominal chief judgeship of the monarch; several levels of judicature existed, difficult cases being referred to a higher-level.
  8. Imprisonment was not used as an ultimate form of punishment; prisoners were only held temporarily for further examination or trial.

Warfare (15 of 33)

  1. Warfare was of major significance in the culture history of both Mesoamerica and Book of Mormon peoples. Recognition of its significance represents a major change in archaeological thought in recent decades; that area’s war practices now align more directly with those described in Mormon’s book.
  2. Wars in Mesoamerica were typically fought during the time of year when they did not interfere with agricultural activities, society’s greatest priority. The same timing is reflected in Book of Mormon accounts of warfare.
  3. Religion played a major role in warfare and was sometimes the primary cause of conflict, according to both sources.

For both Mesoamerican culture and the Book of Mormon all the following military features correspond:

  1. Priestly/oracular guidance was sometimes sought in planning and conducting military operations.
  2. The threat of internal war was the only sanction known or used to contain rebellion.
  3. Feuds between peoples could last for generations.
  4. Armed forces were composed of geographically based militia “armies”; there were no large standing armies. Mass hand-to-hand combat was the normal fighting mode.
  5. The heads of local “armies” were called “captains,” (“chief captains,” etc.) who held rank according to a hierarchical pattern.
  6. Companies of warriors were sometimes construed as “sons” of their captains.
  7. The absolute numbers of warriors employed in Book of Mormon conflicts according to that record are equivalent to the numbers reported in Mesoamerican accounts of war.
  8. Some Mesoamerican armies were composed of units of “10,000″ men, as were Nephite units at the time of their final war.
  9. The most widespread form of fortification was made by excavating a dry moat, throwing the soil up on the inner bank against a timber palisade and building another line of erect timbers atop it.
  10. At least five types of weapons used by Book of Mormon armies agree in detail with those used in Mesoamerica.
  11. Moroni1 carried a virtual battle standard while rallying his forces. in Mexico a standard was strapped to a commander’s back as he mustered his force.
  12. Mesoamerican wars sometimes continued until the victorious commander was able to “drink the blood” of the enemy leader. A Lamanite leader made that very threat against a Nephite captain.

Ideology and Religion (15 of 34)

  1. A complex of 380 cultural patterns having to do with religion and ideology were present both in the civilization of the ancient Near East in the second and first millennia BC and in Mesoamerican civilization. The large number and arbitrary nature of those features is such that they can only be explained by calling upon transoceanic voyaging, plausibly including voyages reported in the Book of Mormon.
  2. At least 62 (out of the 380) features are documented or implied in the Book of Mormon.
  3. Mortality was viewed, by at least some Mesoamerican thinkers, like Nephite prophets, as a test of a person’s conformity to a set of moral standards, the degree ultimately to be a matter for divine judgment.
  4. Some Book of Mormon people as much as certain Mesoamericans anticipated post-mortal residence in a “paradise” and ultimately a “resurrection.”
  5. Spiritual renewal was symbolized by the idea of a seed or plant growing in the inner organs.
  6. In certain times and cultures a Mesoamerican cult of salvation appeared that promised a pleasing state of immortality to observant persons. Of course the same was true of Book of Mormon believers.
  7. A Mesoamerican myth of the “fall” of the “first couple” as a result of disobedience to the creator’s command compares substantially to story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden repeated in the Book of Mormon.
  8. A Nephite belief in Jesus Christ, represented as an elevated (flying?) serpent whose teachings were capable of bringing about salvation, is similar in notable ways to the Quetzalcoatl or Feathered Serpent cult of Mexico that appeared near the time of Christ.
  9. The practice described by Nephite historians as “priestcraft”—priestly exploitation of devotees for private economic gain—is documented in the Book of Mormon and is supposed by scholars to have been a common feature of Mesoamerican religious life.
  10. Prophets, both legitimate and “false,” and “seers” who sometimes gazed into sacred, oracular stones, were shared features of religious life.
  11. A form of ritual washing termed “baptism” was also shared
  12. Sacrifice was a rite of worship both in the Mesoamerica and Mormon’s record. The commonest type of sacrifice was the shedding of the blood of an animal, although offerings of other substances were also made.
  13. A form of communion was practiced both by Mesoamericana and Nephites in which food emblems representing the body of a savior deity were eaten.
  14. Legends in Mesoamerica tell of the disappearance of special persons said to have been taken away without suffering death; some persons are characterized in the same manner in the Book of Mormon.
  15. A pattern of ritual and belief (that is, elements of the cult that had arrived anciently from the Near East) was abruptly terminated in the first century AD, at least in southern Mesoamerica. This change corresponds in time, place, and in part in nature to that reported in the Book of Mormon at the time of Christ’s appearance to the Nephites when he commanded that the observances of the law of Moses cease.

Archaeology and History: Before 600 BC (four of 13)

  1. The book of Ether’s picture of early Jaredite demography makes clear inferentially that an indigenous population already occupied the land where they arrived. That fact agrees with the scientific picture of Mexico in the third millennium BC.
  2. A decline of the society in which the Jaredites lived took place over a period of several centuries before their extinction around 600 BC. The Olmec cultural tradition declined and disappeared from the culture history of Mexico on the same time scale.
  3. The large archaeological site at San Lorenzo Tenochtitlan in the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, a preeminent Olmec city, coincided in time and nature with the “great city” built by Jaredite king Lib at a spot “by the narrow neck of land.”
  4. The Jaredites used at least one writing system which their founders had brought from Mesopotamia. From three to perhaps five systems of writing were employed in Mesoamerica by the end of the Jaredite era.

Archaeology and History: 600 BC to about 1 BC, Part 1 (11 of 33)

  1. Evidence is slight for direct transmission of Olmec cultural elements to later societies. The bearers of Olmec culture largely disappeared. Mormon’s record presents a reasonable inferential picture of how later cultures received limited influences from the Jaredite era.
  2. Soon after their arrival in their promised land (presumably in Guatemala), the Nephites moved to nearby highlands where they became farmers. Lamanites remained in the lowlands where they lived by hunting and took on darker skins. Pacific lowlanders at the time of the Spanish conquest had notably darker skins than highlanders, for whatever reason.
  3. Faces on small clay figurines from the Valley of Guatemala dated to about 300 BC have (skin) surfaces shaded white; figurines from Old World Jerusalem dated to 600 BC when Lehi’s party left there were all white. Some of those from Guatemala are also darker hued. These correspond to differences between “fair” Nephites and “dark” Lamanites. But about 200 BC the light-complexioned figurines ceased being made, about when Mosiah1 led the Nephites away to Zarahemla.
  4. Near the time when Mosiah1‘s party left, some evidence of warfare is found in the archaeology of the valley of Guatemala along with a decrease in population that mirrors the Mosiah1 group’s departure.
  5. A “Great Wall,” so named by archaeologists, 22-feet high, protected the ancient ruined city (now called Kaminaljuyu, near Guatemala City) during the sixth to third centuries BC. In concept, timing, and scale it was apparently similar to the wall built by the Nephites around the city of Nephi.
  6. At Kaminaljuyu, the oldest “great city” in southern Mesoamerica, rapid urbanization from about 600 to 200 BC compares with what the Book of Mormon pictures for the city of Nephi. The scale of public works erected strikes a common chord.
  7. Writing (only on scattered moments) was in use at Kaminaljuyu from 500 to 200 BC and even later confirming the early status of “civilization” at that metropolis. The Book of Mormon reports literacy at the city of Nephi between ca. 575 and 200 BC as well as among the later Zeniffites.
  8. The Nephite record pictures multiple social and ideological systems or near the city of Nephi in the first and second centuries BC, and so does the data from archaeology and art at Kaminaljuyu, which suggest an equally complex cultural history.
  9. A “ceramic sphere” of shared artifacts has been defined by archaeologists in southern Guatemala and western El Salvador in the time range 500-100 BC that matches the area plausibly occupied by the early Lamanites in the south extremity of Book of Mormon lands.
  10. A pyramid at Kaminaljuyu suggested by archaeologists to have functioned as a military watch tower agrees in general in time, place, and function with a Book of Mormon description of the use of such a structure in the second century BC.
  11. A major source for obsidian to make weapons and tools is located near Guatemala City; it meets in essential respects the requirements for “the place of arms” spoken of in Alma Chapter 47.

Archaeology and History: 600 to 1 BC, Part 2 (seven of 46)

  1. After the general collapse of Olmec society around 600 BC, a modified version of it continued around the site of La Venta in the Isthmus. Art representations there are interpreted by some archaeologists a showing local leadership being taken over by immigrants who look like Jews. This site with its hybrid culture came to an end by 450 BC. In Book of Mormon terms the end of Jaredite society near 600 BC was followed by a period when some survivors of the earlier people must have combined with Mulekite colonists from the Mediterranean. That mixed population lived and warred in or around the Nephite “city of Mulek,” identified with La Venta.
  2. A conflict zone has been detected by scholars cutting across southern Mesoamerica, with speakers of Mixe-Zoquean tongues near the isthmus confronting northward-expanding populations of Maya-language speakers. Correspondingly the combined Nephites and Mulekites in the narrow neck zone were under constant pressure by from Lamanite inhabitants of the land of Nephi on the south.
  3. The archaeological ruin of Santa Rosa was a city positioned on the upper Grijalva river where its topographic isolation, together with nearness to a rugged mountain chain to the southeast, qualifies it as the city of Zarahemla, considered by Nephites to be a secure spot in “the heart of the land” but near a “narrow strip of wilderness” to its south.
  4. Ceramic studies and linguistics indicate that people from highland Guatemala may have arrived in central Chiapas on the order of 200 BC, approximately when Mosiah1 led his Nephite party from the land of Nephi to Zarahemla.
  5. A dual population is indicated at Santa Rosa by construction of a major ceremonial structure in two distinct halves by different segments of population. That social duality is confirmed by the presence of two distinct residential zones. Plausibly the Nephite portion of the population lived in one of these segments while the people of Zarahemla occupied the other.
  6. Attention to omens was an important part of the Mesoamerican culture of warfare. The new year’s eve assassination of Amalickiah by Nephite commander Teancum exploited that omen pattern for psychological advantage. The response fit a definitely Mesoamerican pattern.
  7. Book of Mormon statements dating to the middle of the first century BC tell of the migration of colonists from the land southward to the land northward. Significant populations moved from south of the isthmus to the north around that time as documented by archaeology in the states of Oaxaca and Veracruz.

Archaeology and History: about AD 1 to 200

  1. The transition into the Classic era near AD 200 is often represented as a shift from a condition without civilization to one where civilization appeared rather abruptly. Now, however, we know that in the so-called Pre-Classic full-fledged civilization was already present in Mesoamerica. That agrees with the Book of Mormon.
  2. Several areas within Mesoamerica suffered nearly simultaneous natural disasters—at least from volcanic eruptions and earthquakes—in the first half of the first century AD. These phenomena were the proximate causes of population declines, cultural disruptions, and other elements of collapse and discontinuity. Natural disasters that occurred between AD 25 and 30 are reported in the Book of Mormon throughout the isthmian area inhabited by its peoples.
  3. As part of that event Mormon’s record reports the destruction of the city of Jerusalem in the land of Nephi resulting from its being “covered with water.” Submerged ruins dating to about the time of Christ have been discovered beneath Lake Atitlán in Guatemala, where our geographical correlation places the city of Jerusalem.
  4. No later than the second century AD archaeological evidence suggests the presence of the developed cult of the Feathered Serpent or Quetzalcoatl. Some scholars consider this cult to have been based on the teachings of a “man/god” as reported in Mexican traditions. Versions of the cult influenced many parts of Mesoamerica for the rest of the pre-hispanic period, despite considerable syncretism with other beliefs over time. The Book of Mormon reports the appearance of the resurrected Jesus Christ among the Nephites in the narrow neck of land area (very near Coatzacoalcos, a key location in the later Quetzalcoatl cult).
  5. The new pattern of society that resulted from acceptance of Christ’s teachings was characterized by a localized, communalist economy and a classless social structure. In some parts of Mesoamerica at this time archaeologists have used adjectives to describe social conditions that are broadly congruent with these features. For example, burial customs shown at some excavated sites reveal that tombs were no now longer used, nor were any rich burial offerings made, indicating an unranked society.

Archaeology and History: AD 200 to 400 (nine of 17)

  1. In this period the cult of the Feathered Serpent (specifically at Teotihuacan and presumably elsewhere in Mesoamerica) was syncretized with variant cults. The Book of Mormon reports that in the third century “the church” of Jesus Christ lost its dominance among the Nephites as rival belief arose.
  2. Wealth expanded dramatically in step with a rise in trade and population in this period, both in Mesoamerica and according to the Nephite record.
  3. The rise of factions, perhaps based on ethnic and cult differences, complicated governance and distinguished localities and regions from each other in much of Mesoamerica during the third and fourth centuries. Ethnic/tribal rivalries were renewed among Book of Mormon groups around the same time; no unified, widespread government existed.
  4. Militaristic imagery became common in art, and fortifications indicate that warfare now became a feature of some cultures in Mesoamerica. In the third century mass warfare became general between the Nephites and Lamanites across the (old) border between their traditional territories.
  5. Around AD 350 the Central Depression of Chiapas was depopulated almost totally due to war instigated by foes from Guatemala. The basin of the Sidon river or land of Zarahemla and isthmian possessions of the Nephites (identified as mainly the Central Depression of Chiapas) were largely emptied of their population at the around AD 350 when the Nephites retreated northward from Lamanite aggression.
  6. Nephites and Lamanites made a calendrical appointment in setting up their climactic battle in the land of Cumorah. Mesoamerican commanders made such appointments for battle on an astrological basis.
  7. Human sacrifice appears in the archaeological record by the fifth century AD; the Nephite historian reports its appearance among Lamanites in the fourth century.
  8. Secret organizations were instrumental in the social chaos and warfare reported in the Nephite account for this period. Although their exact nature is unclear, they were engaged in the final fighting under the label “robbers.” Several kinds of clandestine or semi-clandestine societal units known in Mesoamerica may fit in that category.
  9. Genocidal war, as in the case of the Lamanites who exterminated Nephite society near AD 400, is the ultimate end of conflict according to the Book of Mormon. The Mesoamerican record of the Terminal Classic era, a few centuries later, shows a similar historical result.

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cursor Mentor

cursor

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Wasn't his delivery fabulous?! Did you note that he finished right at 11:00 (not even one minute later).

I'll be providing a more information regarding categories and numbers of "correspondences" in each category. As he noted, correspondences (William Dever, an eminent archaeologist, calls them "convergences") between the Old Testament text and old world archaeological finds is "a few score [that support the historicity of the Old Testament]. In Mormon's Codex, John L. Sorenson identifies a whopping 420 correspondences between the Book of Mormon text and Mesoamerican archaelological finds. More to come.

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livy111us Proficient

livy111us

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His lecture was absolutely amazing. I am extremely excited for his book to be published. If this was just a taste of what is in his book, then we are all in for a treat.

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cursor Mentor

cursor

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I recommend adding the posts in this thread to the end of the thread of same name in "In the News." That sum should then be placed in the "General Discussions" forum.

cesc101 Collaborator

cesc101

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I am extremely excited for his book to be published. If this was just a taste of what is in his book, then we are all in for a treat.

me too...

I hope there'll be an ebook format too (shipping stuffs to Nigerga is a problem on its own.)

cesc101 Collaborator

cesc101

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There will be an ebook version quite soon, but not a full version. It will be called Mormon's Codex: A Summary.

Cool!

Can't wait...

Deborah Grand Master

Deborah

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You know, I don't need this kind of evidence to know the BOM is what it purports to be, but it's so exciting to see it and to know my faith has a foundation other than my testimony. Loved this presentation.

robuchan Experienced

robuchan

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If Cerro El Vigía has been identified as Hill Cumorah. Would it be expected to find remnants of the massive battles fought there? Hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths in a small area. Bones, weapons of war, etc?

livy111us Proficient

livy111us

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I really liked his discoveries of an annihilation of people in the Chiapas depression around 400 AD. Critics and LDS alike claim that the Nephites were not the Mayan, but lived among the Mayan. If they were one and the same, how do you explain the Mayan culture continuing on after 400 AD? History as well as this discovery shows that there were many factions among the Maya who had conflicts with each other, sometimes to the extinction of certain Mayan groups.

I enjoyed his mentioning that elephants existed until *at least* 2000 BC in the Americas. Of course, I highly doubt that we discovered the very last surviving elephant. Odds are, they lived for at least another 1000 years or so after the earliest discovery.

Sorenson also mentioned the Anthon manuscript and how it was described as a Mexican zodiac. Sorenson stated "Years later Smith’s critics asked Anthon for his version of what transpired during Harris’s visit. Two letters by him contain our best description of the “copy” that Harris displayed. In an 1834 letter the professor recalled that what he was shown,

"Upwards of two-dozen people saw and/or felt the metal plates in Smith’s possession. According to these witnesses he definitely had in his possession an artifact consisting of a set of thin sheets of (hammered?) metal.

The only format in which such a record could have been preserved was that of a native Mesoamerican book, called by scholars a codex. In fact some contemporary descriptions of the record he had in his hands make it sound rather like a codex.

There are very few descriptions of what the markings on the gold plates looked like. The most detailed comes to us secondhand from Charles Anthon, a professor at Columbia College in New York City. In 1828 as Smith was beginning to translate the record from the metallic plates in his possession, he made a copy of “a considerable number” of the “characters” (hieroglyphics) from the record, being careful that they were “perfectly reproduced.” This copy along with Smith’s translation of it was given to an associate, Martin Harris, who took the documents to Professor Anthon in New York City for confirmation of the antiquity of the characters and the accuracy of Smith’s translation. It is unclear what the savant told Harris during their interview, but upon his return to his home in western New York, Harris was satisfied enough that he agreed to mortgage his farm in order to pay the $5,000 cost of printing the book.

Was in fact a singular scrawl. It consisted of all kinds of crooked characters disposed in columns, and had evidently been prepared by some person who had before him at the time a book containing various alphabets. Greek and Hebrew letters, crosses and flourishes, Roman letters inverted or place side-ways, were arranged in perpendicular columns, and the whole ended in a rude delineation of a circle divided into various compartments, decked with various strange marks, and evidently copied after the Mexican Calendar given (i.e., published) by Humboldt, but copied in such a way as not to betray the source.

In 1841 Anthon wrote to a different correspondent that, “The characters were arranged in columns, like the Chinese mode of writing . . . . Greek, Hebrew and all sorts of letters, more or less distorted, . . . were intermingled with sundry delineations of half moons, stars, and other natural objects, and the whole ended in a rude representation of the Mexican zodiac.”

Taken together such descriptions are suggestive of what someone might say after a naïve perusal of a Mesoamerican document—perpendicular columns of “singular characters,” “natural objects,” segmented circles, a Mexican calendar, etc."

All in all, an absolutely amazing talk that only scratches the surface on Book of Mormon evidences. I am working on a project on BOM evidences, but after hearing this talk, will have to wait until Mormons Codex is published to finish. There is just too much good info to ignore.

Edited by livy111us
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livy111us Proficient

livy111us

Posted
Posted

What is this codex? sorry....dont know

thx

It is a book that is generally made from tree bark, that the Mayans used to record history, tell stories etc.... You can see some pictures of a few remaining codices here: http://www.ancientmexico.biz/maya.html

When the Spaniards arrived, they burned all of the codices they could find thinking they were of the devil. Oddly enough, those who persecuted Alma and were killing the converts to the Church also "also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire" (Alma 14:8).

In order for them to be burned, they must be flammable. This excludes records written on plates, carved in stone, etc.. and would fit the description of codices nicely.

Sorenson has written an excellent article on the subject here:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=41&chapid=196

3
Anijen Mentor

Anijen

Posted
Posted

If Cerro El Vigía has been identified as Hill Cumorah. Would it be expected to find remnants of the massive battles fought there? Hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths in a small area. Bones, weapons of war, etc?

As far as I know there has not been an excavation at this site. Yes I agree that so many people would leave some type of trace evidence of being there. We will never know until a thorough study can be made. Even then it is hard to know where to start.

Having compared both the hills [Cumorah NY, Cerro El Vigia] it is Cerro el Vigia that meets a more closer comparison (scientifically speaking) to the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

also to consider is the many legends and folklore that are attached to Cerro el Vigia such as this one;

"So may I help you in finding a loved one?" Apolinar's eyes glinted in the thin light of a votive candle. "Or are you ill?" "No, gracias," said Merrill, who speaks fluent Spanish from his days as a missionary in Guatemala in the late 1980s. "We are Mormons. We've come from Utah, in the United States, to learn about Cerro El Vigia." "Apolinar regarded us in silence for a long moment, and said, "Ah, El Vigia. It is a magical place" "Magical in what way?" Merrill asked. "There are so many legends. It is said that there was once a fierce and bloody battle." "A what?" Merrill said, his interest quickening. "Si, it is an old, old story," Apolinar went on. "Hundreds and thousands fell. It is believed that their ghosts are still up there, swirling in the mist." Merrill was hungry for more. "In this battle you speak of who was doing the fighting?" "I cannot say more. It is a belief we do not like to discuss. But, if you must know more, well . . . it is said that there is a book buried up on the mountain:'

We know that the hill Ramah of the Jaredites happens to be the same hill Cumorah of the Nephite/Lamanite battle. It is interesting that the Olmec time frame roughly is approximately that of the Jaredites. To make a connection the large Olmec head boulders came from the area of Cerro el Vigia.

Cerro el Vigia after all means sacred mountain.

hill Cumorah 1908

cumorah.jpg

A bunch of Elders on Cerro el Vigia (a view from the top)

Los+Tuxtlas+Zone,+Cerro+Vig%C3%ADa,+32210.JPG

1
Anijen Mentor

Anijen

Posted
Posted (edited)

When the Spaniards arrived, they burned all of the codices they could find thinking they were of the devil. Oddly enough, those who persecuted Alma and were killing the converts to the Church also "also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire" (Alma 14: 8).

I always enjoy your post.

I just wanted to comment that one reason for this thinking is that they found the Mayans ordinances of baptism and sacraments too closely similar to their Christian ones, they knew it had to be a devilish counterfeit.

Edited by Anijen
2
Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted
also to consider is the many legends and folklore that are attached to Cerro el Vigia such as this one
Unfortunately it might have been the guide telling Merrill what he thought Merrill wanted to hear after learning he was LDS.
Anijen Mentor

Anijen

Posted
Posted

Unfortunately it might have been the guide telling Merrill what he thought Merrill wanted to hear after learning he was LDS.

I thought of this before I posted it, and in this case I believe that is exactly what happened. Yet, there are many legends like this that according to many of the locals they date back to their great grandfathers. I assume a time before a two hill theory was even known. The sacred name of the mountain, the witchcraft, and the legend stories all predate the Book of Mormon. Clearly not proof but interesting still the same.

I too would have liked it if they never mentioned they were Mormon at all.

1
ANACO Community Regular

ANACO

Posted
Posted

It is a book that is generally made from tree bark, that the Mayans used to record history, tell stories etc.... You can see some pictures of a few remaining codices here: http://www.ancientmexico.biz/maya.html

When the Spaniards arrived, they burned all of the codices they could find thinking they were of the devil. Oddly enough, those who persecuted Alma and were killing the converts to the Church also "also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire" (Alma 14: 8).

In order for them to be burned, they must be flammable. This excludes records written on plates, carved in stone, etc.. and would fit the description of codices nicely.

Sorenson has written an excellent article on the subject here:

http://maxwellinstit...d=41&chapid=196

I thought the Lamanites destroyed the records of the Nephites.

Mormon 6:6

...having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Would not that have included flammable Maya codices written on bark? So why did these survive to reveal Nephite BoM geography?

But what do I know. I didn't attend the FAIR Conference.

livy111us Proficient

livy111us

Posted
Posted (edited)

I thought the Lamanites destroyed the records of the Nephites.

Mormon 6:6

...having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Would not that have included flammable Maya codices written on bark? So why did these survive to reveal Nephite BoM geography?

But what do I know. I didn't attend the FAIR Conference.

I think you are reading *WAY* too far into my post and looking for something that is not there (again). I didn't say any codex had anything to do with BOM geography, and that any codex survived from BOM times. The codices we have post-date the BOM by a long time. I was showing that the same thing that happened in The Book of Mormon of burning religious "books" was similar to what the Spaniards did when they arrived. We are talking about a gap of around 800 years from the end of The BOM to the Dresden Codex. FYI, if someone destroyed something 800 years ago, does not mean that we are totally inept to create any more of that same thing. That is an absolutely ludicrous argument!

No wonder you have a hard time with the Mesoamerican theory. You seem to find the negative when it isn't even there. If there is nothing you can criticize, you make something up! That is called a straw man. Set it up, knock it down...

Edited by livy111us
4
ANACO Community Regular

ANACO

Posted
Posted

I think you are reading *WAY* too far into my post and looking for something that is not there (again). I didn't say any codex had anything to do with BOM geography, and that any codex survived from BOM times. The codices we have post-date the BOM by a long time. I was showing that the same thing that happened in The Book of Mormon of burning religious "books" was similar to what the Spaniards did when they arrived. We are talking about a gap of around 800 years from the end of The BOM to the Dresden Codex. FYI, if someone destroyed something 800 years ago, does not mean that we are totally inept to create any more of that same thing. That is an absolutely ludicrous argument!

No wonder you have a hard time with the Mesoamerican theory. You seem to find the negative when it isn't even there. If there is nothing you can criticize, you make something up! That is called a straw man. Set it up, knock it down...

My! What a personal attack. I didn't make anything up.

It was stated that the Anthon transcript was compared to discovered mesoamerica written records.

But the BoM states the Nephite records had been destroyed - except those hidden in the Hill.

I see a contradiction. Isn't it a reasonable request to ask why?

Congratulations over the excitement of Dr. Sorenson's new book.

Kind regards.

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