Mormons Codex

[canard78]

JLS wrote (page 144) in Mormon's Codex:

"The idea that there was any ancient 'civilization' in the Western Hemisphere was contrary to notions commonly held in Smith’s area in his day, and for that matter, it was contrary to the views of the entire Western world of the time."

-----------------------

This was the mentality of the Gentiles, as described or foretold in the Book of Mormon:

"And also that a knowledge of these things must come unto the remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles, who the Lord hath said should scatter this people, and this people should be counted as naught among them—"

It's too bad JLS had a similar attitude, but it's obvious he acquired it at University in his day, because it was the attitude early in American History required to take their lands and for the US to expand westward....it wouldnt do to claim the ancient North American ruins and mounds, belonged to a former sophisticated civilization - especially when the only evidence remaining would be:

"this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry."

(Mormon)

This is why some sophisticated Maya Ruins appeared so attractive to those who wanted evidences for The Book of Mormon.

If I were Mormon I can understand him having a pretty distorted view of the loathsome people that were wiping out my entire population.

Many of my grandparents and even parents have genuine animosity towards Germans (even though very few living Germans had anything to do with the 2nd world war).

And as this article that I referenced earlier illustrates that your description of the 19thC opinion of the natives was not universal:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=20&num=2&id=609

EDIT: This post caused a bit of confusion due to the ambiguity of how I wrote it. I was referring to Mormon the person. Apologies.

Edited January 13, 2015 by canard78

[cursor]

JLS wrote (page 144) in Mormon's Codex:

"The idea that there was any ancient 'civilization' in the Western Hemisphere was contrary to notions commonly held in Smith’s area in his day, and for that matter, it was contrary to the views of the entire Western world of the time."

-----------------------

 

It's too bad JLS had a similar attitude, but it's obvious he acquired it at University in his day, because it was the attitude early in American History required to take their lands and for the US to expand westward....it wouldnt do to claim the ancient North American ruins and mounds, belonged to a former sophisticated civilization - especially when the only evidence remaining would be ...

 

It's clear from your poet that 1) you've not read more that the singular quote from page 144 of Mormon's Codex, and that 2) you clearly have no clue what JLS' informed attitude is with respect to the ancients of this western hemisphere.

[cursor]

How about the work done by people like Mitchell (who Harris visited before Joseph's dictation started)?

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=20&num=2&id=609

 

JLS wrote:

"The various 'theories' Bennett skims over were each held by only a few 'experts' and by no means were widely espoused or believed. (My big bibliography on trans-oceanic voyages has mentions of all of those, and more.) My quotation of von Hagen about no civilization (pages 144-5) is still credible as to the general viewpoint."

Edited October 16, 2013 by cursor

[canard78]

JLS wrote:

"The various “theories” Bennett skims over were each held by only a few “experts” and by no means were widely espoused or believed. (My big bibliography on trans-oceanic voyages has mentions of all of those, and more.) My quotation of von Hagen about no civilization (pages 144-5) is still credible as to the general viewpoint."

 

Thanks. It would be fair to say that Martin Harris would have been aware of the attitude of the experts:

 

 

In what might be the very first written record of Harris's visit east, James Gordon Bennett, then associate editor of the Morning Courier and New York Enquirer, wrote in 1831 that he had interviewed Charles Butler, the lawyer-philanthropist from whom Harris had attempted to borrow money for the printing of the Book of Mormon.⁷⁰ Harris told Butler, as Bennett recorded, that he

showed them to Professor [Charles] Anthon who said that he did not know what language they were—told him to carry them to Dr. Mitchell—Doctor Mitchell examined them—and compared them with other hieroglyphics—thought them very curious—and [said] they were the characters of a nation now extinct which he named. Harris returned to Anthon who put some questions to him and got angry with Harris.

71

This account is elaborated upon in Bennett's published article entitled "Mormon Religion—Clerical Ambition—Western New York—The Mormonites Gone to Ohio" that appeared in the (New York) Morning Courier and Enquirer on 1 September 1831.

They attempted to get the Book printed, but could not raise the means till Harris stept forward, and raised money on his farm for that purpose. Harris with several manuscripts in his pocket, went to the city of New York. And called upon one of the Professors of Columbia College for the purpose of shewing them to him. Harris says that the Professor thought them very curious, but admitted that he could not decypher them. Said he to Harris, "Mr. Harris you had better go to the celebrated Doct. Mitchell and shew them to him. He is very learned in these ancient languages, and I have no doubt will be able to give you some satisfaction." "Where does he live," asked Harris. He was told and off he posted with the engravings from the Golden Plates to submit to Doc. Mitchell—Harris says that the Doctor received him very "purlitely," looked at his engravings—made a learned dissertation on them—compared them with the hieroglyphics discovered by Champollion in Egypt—and set them down as the language of a people formerly in existence in the East, but now no more.

72

Whether Mitchill endeavored then and there to translate what Harris brought to him is open to question. Certainly he studied the "characters" most carefully. His assertion that the characters thereon were "of a nation now extinct which he named" speaks directly to his own richly developed theories on the extinct Australasian race of ancient America, that "delicate race" destroyed by the Tartars ultimately somewhere in upstate New York not far from where Harris farmed near Palmyra. Is it any wonder that Harris returned to Palmyra confirmed and committed to assisting in the work of translating the Book of Mormon?⁷³

 

We don't know whether Harris related the "learned dissertation" about the "nation now extinct" to Joseph Smith, but I find it hard to imagine he mentioned nothing at all of it to Joseph. I'd imagine that if I were Martin I'd be very excited to tell Joseph all about the endorsement of an extinct nation given the context of the plates. Again, not saying that this makes Harris/Smith the author(s) but it's evidence pointing towards them knowing of great nations (now extinct) even before the translation started.

[cursor]

I just received the latest version of Mormon's Codex: A Summary (113 pages) from my father, which I will make available free of charge at JohnLSorenson.com within the next couple of days. I'll be posting a link to the document in the very near future.

Edited November 7, 2013 by cursor

[cursor]

While "Summary" is 100% ready for digital distribution, Deseret Book feels that it might negatively affect book sales. So, for the time being, it's release will be delayed. I am, however, in the process of preparing a Spanish version of Summary that poses no conflict with DB marketing (DB has no foreign language rights). Watch for it.

[Robert F. Smith]

While "Summary" is 100% ready for digital distribution, Deseret Book feels that it might negatively affect book sales. So, for the time being, it's release will be delayed. I am, however, in the process of preparing a Spanish version of Summary that poses no conflict with DB marketing (DB has no foreign language rights). Watch for it.

Are you aware that the European Saints have systematic, but private translation efforts for those speaking German and French?  If not, it might be well to explore those possibilities -- and I can put you in touch with some people.  Just say the word, and I'll email you.

[cursor]

Thanks for that, Robert F. Smith. I would love to have a digital connection to such a resource. Thanks. I can be reached at cs[at]worx.cc.

I have limited experience in French, by the way, with Ms. Frodroci (9th grade French) ... but do see serious options for Codex. What might you see?

[Calm]

There are some FairMormon members who are translating into several languages or know people who are.  You might write them (us) to make some connections hopefully, I can give a heads up that you will be writing if you want but this is definitely something that would just waste time if I acted as 'go-between'.

[ERayR]

If I were Mormon I can understand him having a pretty distorted view of the loathsome people that were wiping out my entire population. 

 

Many of my grandparents and even parents have genuine animosity towards Germans (even though very few living Germans had anything to do with the 2nd world war).

 

And as this article that I referenced earlier illustrates that your description of the 19thC opinion of the natives was not universal:

 

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=20&num=2&id=609

 Nevermind

Edited December 30, 2013 by ERayR

[cursor]

Are you aware that the European Saints have systematic, but private translation efforts for those speaking German and French?  If not, it might be well to explore those possibilities -- and I can put you in touch with some people.  Just say the word, and I'll email you.

 

Please feel free to offer such references to me at cs [at] worx.cc. Thanks.

Edited December 30, 2013 by cursor

[cursor]

My father is having an Open House on May 2nd, at the Edgemont 7th Ward building (6:30-8:30 PM) – 555 E 3030 N, in celebration of his 90th birthday. All are invited. My wife and I will certainly be there. 

 

Edited April 29, 2014 by cursor

[cursor]

Dad (just the other day) found this very nicely formatted slip of paper in his copy of Mormon's Codex that was given to him by Deseret Book.

 

Edited December 9, 2014 by cursor

[Robert F. Smith]

If I were Mormon I can understand him having a pretty distorted view of the loathsome people that were wiping out my entire population. 

 

Many of my grandparents and even parents have genuine animosity towards Germans (even though very few living Germans had anything to do with the 2nd world war).

 

And as this article that I referenced earlier illustrates that your description of the 19thC opinion of the natives was not universal:

 

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=20&num=2&id=609

Edited to note that I was wrong in what I thought you were saying, canard.  Calmoriah called me to account, and on rereading it appears that she is correct.  Please forgive me.

Bob

Edited December 10, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[Calm]

Removed since original edited...not sure if this makes it confusing or not, the last is intended....

Edited December 10, 2014 by calmoriah

[cursor]

JLS wrote (page 144) in Mormon's Codex:

"The idea that there was any ancient 'civilization' in the Western Hemisphere was contrary to notions commonly held in Smith’s area in his day, and for that matter, it was contrary to the views of the entire Western world of the time."

-----------------------

This was the mentality of the Gentiles, as described or foretold in the Book of Mormon:

"And also that a knowledge of these things must come unto the remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles, who the Lord hath said should scatter this people, and this people should be counted as naught among them—"

It's too bad JLS had a similar attitude, but it's obvious he acquired it at University in his day, because it was the attitude early in American History required to take their lands and for the US to expand westward....it wouldnt do to claim the ancient North American ruins and mounds, belonged to a former sophisticated civilization - especially when the only evidence remaining would be:

"this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry."

(Mormon)

This is why some sophisticated Maya Ruins appeared so attractive to those who wanted evidences for The Book of Mormon.

Yeah, I get that this post is more than a year old, but perhaps some clarification might be beneficial.

"Too bad JLS had a similar attitude," is totally misleading. Clearly you don't know the man. He was speaking of general attitude of folk (including "scholars") "in the day." He hardly said that he agreed with said attitude. Please, responsibly reread.

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't think he is agreeing with Tiki, but is saying that Mormon the Book of Mormon author may have had such a view of the Lamanites that wiped out his people, the Nephites.  I don't think canard is talking about JLS at all in this post.

I think that you are right, cal, so I edited by odd comments and apologized.  Thanks.

[cursor]

What one states about societal adopted views at points in human cultural history should hardly reflect on one's personal attitudes and perspectives. If I report that the general attitude of the French in the 17th century was ... however — that does NOT mean that I might at necessarily approve of that perspective. I'm very simply observing and reporting.

[Calm]

If you want to delete the comment to me, I think it will keep the error from confusing anyone now that it's been corrected. I deleted my first post and can do the same here to.

[cursor]

Hello Curtis.

 

I run the BMAF Facebook group which focuses on BOM archaeology and geography. I add a quote from Mormon's Codex every day to help people understand how much evidence there is for The Book of Mormon. But I've run into a quote that is a little confusing to me and would like some clarification if possible. the quote is this:

 

“The Book of Mormon land and city of Bountiful in the New World was on the east side of the narrow neck of land—a coastal area with lots of cattails. In that light, the following excerpt from Raynaud’s translation of The Annals of Cakchiquels could be of significant interest. I have inserted his alternative reading: ‘[bountiful], as a synonym for ‘Place of Abundance’: [bountiful] at the rising sun. Also one at the Place of [the sun’s] Disappearance. Another at the setting sun, and we came from the setting sun. Another is there where is the divinity. Four Places of Abundance [bountifuls], are counted, oh, our children. Form the setting we came, from the Place of Abundance [bountiful] across the sea; this was the Place of Abundance [bountiful] from which we came, where we were born, where we were engendered by our mothers, by our fathers.’ Anales de los Xahil de los indios cakchiqueles (translation of the Popul Vuh).” Mormon’s Codex pg 165

 

My question is about the first sentence. Why did he add that the land and city Bountiful had "lots of cattails?" The Book of Mormon never mentions cattails. I know earlier he states that "A derivation of the name Tulan is 'place of cattails' meaning a very crowded location or city." 
Was this a mistake? Was he supposed to add something about Tulan where the hyphen is?

 

This has many of us confused on what he is trying to say and we would love any insight you may have.

 

Thanks,

 

Tyler Livingston

BMAF

_____

 

I forwarded the question to my father. He responded:

 

T. L.:
    Thanks, Tyler, for trying to shed light. I will try to do the same.
    The Book of Mormon may imply, but does not of course say that, there were "lots of cattails" at Bountiful. My logic, not clearly laid out in Mormon’s Codex, to be sure, is:
    • In  the light of the overall geography of the land southward, the Bountiful area, along with the coastal zone "southward" from there, was a flat, non-mountainous territory (in all the account of the wars in that area there is no hint of encountering any elevation), therefore
    • We can be quite certain that the "borders by the east sea" area was where the river Sidon (the only river mentioned in the book, thus a major stream) reached the sea, where its slow-flowing waters surely formed a sizable delta, and
    • Thus this wet coastal area would have been highly likely to have a flora high in cattails.
This is my primary logic that “Bountiful" would have been "a place of (actual) cattails."
    In fact cattails are abundant all along or just inside the coast all along the "east sea" (Gulf of Campeche) (but not particularly along the steeper Pacific-coastal zone). They are also along the coast at Wadi Sayq in Oman, the Old World "land Bountiful."
    Of course when natural conditions are favorable, cattails grow thickly, presenting a potential mental picture that enables one to compare "a place of cattails" with a densely populated city. Precisely the same logic and imagery of course supplies the background behind representing the "city of Tulan" as "a place of cattails" in Mesoamerican legends.
    I am sorry that the book omitted this explicit argument. Some points of the geography are so “obvious” to my mind that I guess I fail to explicate the logic as clearly as I could or should.

 

 

Best regards,

 

John

 

[canard78]

Edited to note that I was wrong in what I thought you were saying, canard. Calmoriah called me to account, and on rereading it appears that she is correct. Please forgive me.

Bob

No hard feelings at all. I think I missed the original replies by yourself, ErayR and Cal (thanks Cal).

I'm guessing it was caused by my "weakness in writing" - having reread "if I were Mormon..." it sounds like I was referring to the religion not the person. I meant the person, but I'm guessing that was the clarification from cal.

Edited January 13, 2015 by canard78

[Virtutis]

I'm really looking forward to reading this book!

[TheSkepticChristian]

When is Sorenson's "Mormon's codex" going to be publish?? News??

 

What where you saying ERayR? 

[ERayR]

What where you saying ERayR? 

 

Huh what?