Brigham Young And Limited Geography Theory

[Scott Lloyd]

I just ran across this quote from Brigham Young that indicates he viewed the Nephite lands as being south of the border:

I look forward to the time when the settlements of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will extend right through to the City of Old Mexico, and from thence on through Central America to the land where the Nephites flourished in the golden era of their history, and this great backbone of the American Continent be filled, north and south with the cities and temples of the people of God.

(letter to William C. Staines, January 11, 1876)

Also, the passage "this great backbone of the American Continent be filled, north and south" indicates his usage of "American continent," perhaps common at the time, to mean both North and South America.

[Vance]

I just ran across this quote from Brigham Young that indicates he viewed the Nephite lands as being south of the border:

(letter to William C. Staines, January 11, 1876)

Also, the passage "this great backbone of the American Continent be filled, north and south" indicates his usage of "American continent," perhaps common at the time, to mean both North and South America.

WOW!!!!!!

BY said it, so that must mean that it is official doctrine.

Oh wait, that only applies if the quotes support the opposite position.

Sorry, I forgot.

[ERayR]

WOW!!!!!!

BY said it, so that must mean that it is official doctrine.

Oh wait, that only applies if the quotes support the opposite position.

Sorry, I forgot.

Don't let it happen or you will be reduced in rank

[Vance]

Don't let it happen or you will be reduced in rank

I would be demoted from "Chief Pharisee and Vindictive Goat" to what exactly?

[guerreiro9]

WOW!!!!!!

BY said it, so that must mean that it is official doctrine.

Oh wait, that only applies if the quotes support the opposite position.

Sorry, I forgot.

No it doesn't mean that it is official doctrine, but it does show that at least some early leaders considered "the land where the Nephites flourished" to be in Central America. Assuming the letter is authentic, it appears that Brigham Young, at least on the occasion of this letter, supported that hypothesis.

[Scott Lloyd]

No it doesn't mean that it is official doctrine, but it does show that at least some early leaders considered "the land where the Nephites flourished" to be in Central America. Assuming the letter is authentic, it appears that Brigham Young, at least on the occasion of this letter, supported that hypothesis.

I think Vance gets that. He's just twitting those who appeal to the words of dead Mormon leaders to support the opposite conclusion.

It's a safe bet the letter is authentic. It's in Letterbook 14:124-26, dated Jan. 11, 1876, at the Church History Library. Leonard Arrington cited it in Brigham Young: American Moses,and Assistant Church Historian Richard E. Turley Jr. cited it last weekend in an address he gave in El Paso.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Anijen]

I would be demoted from "Chief Pharisee and Vindictive Goat" to what exactly?

It would be demoted to unfaithful Chief Pharisee and apostate Vindictive Goat, where both are weak in their faith. Edited August 1, 2012 by Anijen

[guerreiro9]

I think Vance gets that. He's just twitting those who appeal to the words of dead Mormon leaders to support the opposite conclusion.

Yes, I think I realized this after I posted my reply. So much of communication is nonverbal, that many times it is difficult to read someone correctly on an internet board. I guess I should have realized the smiling face with the tongue sticking out was meant to convey additional meaning to his statement.

[Nevo]

No it doesn't mean that it is official doctrine, but it does show that at least some early leaders considered "the land where the Nephites flourished" to be in Central America.

Not really. Young's statement indicates that "the land where the Nephites flourished" was not in Central America but somewhere beyond it (i.e., in South America). I'm not really sure why Scott thinks this supports the Limited Geography Theory.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Nevo

[Anijen]

Not really. Young's statement indicates that "the land where the Nephites flourished" was not in Central America but somewhere beyond it (i.e., in South America). I'm not really sure why Scott thinks this supports the Limited Geography Theory.

I disagree that BYs statement absolutely meant South America and cancels out all of Central America.

extend right through to the City of Old Mexico, and from thence on through Central America

Through could mean bypass it, and then continue on to South America, or it could also mean through Central America meaning spreading out in Central America.

Another reason I feel it is Central America (CA) and not South America (SA) is; if BY meant they went through CA to get to SA, why does he mention a meaningless in-between and does not mention SA at all as the destination?

It supports the LGT by placing the land of the Nephites in Central America not the Great Lakes area.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Anijen

[Scott Lloyd]

Not really. Young's statement indicates that "the land where the Nephites flourished" was not in Central America but somewhere beyond it (i.e., in South America). I'm not really sure why Scott thinks this supports the Limited Geography Theory.

At the very least, it contradicts a hemispheric model (not to mention the so-called "heartland model") for Book of Mormon geography by excluding North America.

And I agree with Anijen's analysis above.

To be clear, I'm not asserting that the Brigham Young quote here is doctrinal, only that it illustrates that certain early Church leaders' views of Book of Mormon geography are not as definitive as some dogmatists would have us believe.

_________________

Scott Lloyd, proud consumer of Chick-fil-A food since the attempted boycott/intimidation/suppression of July 2012.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[cdowis]

Not really. Young's statement indicates that "the land where the Nephites flourished" was not in Central America but somewhere beyond it (i.e., in South America). I'm not really sure why Scott thinks this supports the Limited Geography Theory.

One myth regarding LGT is that the Nephites only lived in mesoamerica. That simply is not true.

The LGT proposes that the text of the BOM is geographically based in mesoamerica, but it does not preclude Nephites/Lamanites living also in North and South America.

Hope that clarifies things for you.

Edited August 1, 2012 by cdowis

[ERayR]

I would be demoted from "Chief Pharisee and Vindictive Goat" to what exactly?

Hmm your about as low as you can get. Bummer oh what to do.

[Calm]

Hmm your about as low as you can get. Bummer oh what to do.

He could go to Rank and File Pharisee and Bitter and Sulking Goat.....

[ERayR]

He could go to Rank and File Pharisee and Bitter and Sulking Goat.....

[guerreiro9]

At the very least, it contradicts a hemispheric model (not to mention the so-called "heartland model") for Book of Mormon geography by excluding North America.

And I agree with Anijen's analysis above.

To be clear, I'm not asserting that the Brigham Young quote here is doctrinal, only that it illustrates that certain early Church leaders' views of Book of Mormon geography are not as definitive as some dogmatists would have us believe.

_________________

Scott Lloyd, proud consumer of Chick-fil-A food since the attempted boycott/intimidation/suppression of July 2012.

Brigham Young's statement definitely contradicts the "heartland model" by indicating that "the land where the Nephites flourished" was to the south of Mexico City, but this does not necessarily contradict the "hemispherical model". In my opinion the Book of Mormon does contradict the "hemispherical model", but this statement by Brigham Young does not. As Nevo rightly pointed out you could read "through Central America to the land" as completely bypassing Central America rather than "throughout" Central America as I choose to read it. Unfortunately we do not know exactly what Brigham Young meant by this statement.

[Nevo]

...or it could also mean through Central America meaning spreading out in Central America.

If the passage had ended the way you quoted it ("extend right through to the City of Old Mexico, and from thence on through Central America"), your reading would be plausible. However, you left off the key element: "to the land where the Nephites flourished." When one speaks of passing through x to y, the clear inference is that x and y are different places. I don't think Brigham Young's statement is all that ambiguous.

It supports the LGT by placing the land of the Nephites in Central America not the Great Lakes area.

Brigham Young's statement places the land of the Nephites (at their apogee) somewhere to the south of Central America. This is consistent with a traditional hemispheric reading of the Book of Mormon which understands the "land southward" as being south of the Isthmus of Panama ("the narrow neck of land") and "the land northward" as being north of it. The Book of Mormon places Nephite civilization, at its birth and during its height, in the land southward. (Only when they are on the verge of destruction do they move, en masse, into the land northward.)

[Scott Lloyd]

Brigham Young's statement definitely contradicts the "heartland model" by indicating that "the land where the Nephites flourished" was to the south of Mexico City, but this does not necessarily contradict the "hemispherical model". In my opinion the Book of Mormon does contradict the "hemispherical model", but this statement by Brigham Young does not. As Nevo rightly pointed out you could read "through Central America to the land" as completely bypassing Central America rather than "throughout" Central America as I choose to read it. Unfortunately we do not know exactly what Brigham Young meant by this statement.

I don't follow you.

A hemispheric model would include North and South America (i.e. the western hemisphere). The Brigham Young quote clearly seems to me to exclude North America.

Is there something I'm not seeing?

[Bob Crockett]

Well, that's an interesting quote. But it isn't very specific and isn't official.

Plus, the anti-LGT theory does not rule out the possibility that MesoAmerica was the site of Nephite and Lamanite activity.

[Scott Lloyd]

If the passage had ended the way you quoted it ("extend right through to the City of Old Mexico, and from thence on through Central America"), your reading would be plausible. However, you left off the key element: "to the land where the Nephites flourished." When one speaks of passing through x to y, the clear inference is that x and y are different places. I don't think Brigham Young's statement is all that ambiguous.

Brigham Young's statement places the land of the Nephites (at their apogee) somewhere to the south of Central America. This is consistent with a traditional hemispheric reading of the Book of Mormon which understands the "land southward" as being south of the Isthmus of Panama ("the narrow neck of land") and "the land northward" as being north of it. The Book of Mormon places Nephite civilization, at its birth and during its height, in the land southward. (Only when they are on the verge of destruction do they move, en masse, into the land northward.)

If the hemispheric theory holds that the Nephites did not move into North America until they were in decline, then yes, I can see how the Brigham Young quote can be read as being consistant with that theory.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, that's an interesting quote. But it isn't very specific and isn't official.

.

I don't regard any Book of Mormon geography theory as official. I don't think the early Church leaders knew any more definitively than we do today specifically where events transpired.

Perhaps you missed the post where I sought to make that clear.

[CASteinman]

I think its an interesting quote because it shows that at least the North American Continent was not high in Brigham Young's mind as the location of the Book of Mormon lands. I suspect he would have insisted that they were in North America if Joseph had indicated it.

[Bob Crockett]

Oh, the many times I've been told that I've missed somebody's point.

The fact that the Hill Cumorah is the same today and yesterday is official; the rest of the geography is not.

[Nevo]

If the hemispheric theory holds that the Nephites did not move into North America until they were in decline, then yes, I can see how the Brigham Young quote can be read as being consiststant with that theory.

According to the Book of Mormon, around A.D. 350, the Nephites ceded "all the land southward" to the Lamanites (see Mormon 2:29). Over the following 35 years, the Nephites were continually pushed northward by the Lamanites ("swept off [the land] as dew before the sun"), eventually making their last stand in the land of Cumorah—an area well north of the narrow neck of land.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Nevo

[Thinking]

Orson Pratt also said, “Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites.” (JD Vol. 20 p. 62)

Edited August 1, 2012 by Thinking