Brigham Young And Limited Geography Theory

[ANACO]

I think you are an unreliable interpreter of his work, for the reasons I have already given. He is specifically giving his interpretation of the geographical context of the population in the BOM text, a subset of the total population.

Reading and interpretation of the BOM text requires no specialized knowledge. He and I, for example, disagree on several points of interpretation of the text.

I'm not an unreliable interpreter of Sorenson's work.

Read:

"John L. Sorenson - A Whole Bunch of Reasons Why Book of Mormon Geography Could Not Have Included North America"

http://www.bmaf.org/node/243

He stated - and it doesn't matter if his article isn't an official position of this, that or of the Church. The LGT never has been:

Summary on distances

In Mormon’s mind, the scene of the Nephite, Lamanite, and Jaredite activities was of limited size. Main lands, minor lands, mountain ranges, plains, valleys, rivers, and oceans are all referred to in a manner that indicates that Mormon not only knew about those geographical elements from the records of his ancestors, but he knew much of the scene personally and intimately. The dimensions are small, although hardly tiny. The promised land in which the Nephites’ history played out was on the order of five hundred miles long and over two hundred miles wide, according to Mormon’s mental map. That is still considerably larger than the stage on which most Old Testament events took place. http://maxwellinstit...101&chapid=1139

Apparently, among the LGT Theorists/Apologists, there's limited to no agreement on the actual size of the LGT.

Quoting Brigham Young isn't helping the LGT - when there's no agreement on the LGT.

Kind regards.

Edited August 4, 2012 by ANACO

[cursor]

I don't think the early Church leaders knew any more definitively than we do today specifically where events transpired.

I think it's clear that early church leaders knew substantially less than we know today. We now have everything that they had then, and much, much more. Most, if not all, of the archaeological and anthropological data that we have at our fingertips today was simply not available in the early years of the church. To attempt a geograhical fit between the Book of Mormon peoples/events and ancient cultures/events, is quite simply, unnecessary and ill-advised.

[ANACO]

To attempt a geograhical fit between the Book of Mormon peoples/events and ancient cultures/events, is quite simply, unnecessary and ill-advised.

Have you informed your father of this?

[ERayR]

Have you informed your father of this?

Why the snarky?

[ANACO]

Was I being snarky? Snarky is in the eye of the beholder.

I always considered snarky to be expressed by individuals who get up in sacrament meetings, serve missions, teach their children in FHE, give their testimonies of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, of Joseph Smith being called to be a true prophet...then turn around and claim he and other early leaders of the Church didn't know geography - as an excuse for the failings of the LGT. To think a GT would contradict and not elevate our early leaders is apparently asking too much. But apparently the standard for and the acceptance of the LGT isn't that high.

Kind regards.

Use minimal respect or leave the thread.

[ERayR]

Was I being snarky? Snarky is in the eye of the beholder.

I always considered snarky to be expressed by individuals who get up in sacrament meetings, serve missions, teach their children in FHE, give their testimonies of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, of Joseph Smith being called to be a true prophet...then turn around and claim he and other early leaders of the Church didn't know geography - as an excuse for the failings of the LGT. To think a GT would contradict and not elevate our early leaders is apparently asking too much. But apparently the standard for and the acceptance of the LGT isn't that high.

Kind regards.

Along with snarky you have constructed quite a straw man there.

Kind regards

[Neophyte]

Was I being snarky? ...

Observations from a casual observer, you were being snarky.

[ANACO]

Along with snarky you have constructed quite a straw man there.

Kind regards

Once again, I have to inform the uniformed of their LGT belief. No straw man was constructed by me.

This is the straw man:

What may startle some about this situation is that most of what Joseph Smith said or implied about geography indicates that he did not understand or was ambiguous about the fact, as it turns out, that Mesoamerica was the particular setting for Nephite history. et cetera...

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=41&chapid=196

Kind regards.

[livy111us]

Anaco,

What are your beliefs on BOM geography? As far as I can gather, you subscribe to a HGT who has been indoctrinated by Meldrum.

[rodheadlee]

Once again, I have to inform the uniformed of their LGT belief. No straw man was constructed by me.

This is the straw man:

What may startle some about this situation is that most of what Joseph Smith said or implied about geography indicates that he did not understand or was ambiguous about the fact, as it turns out, that Mesoamerica was the particular setting for Nephite history. et cetera...

http://maxwellinstit...d=41&chapid=196

Kind regards.

I think each one of us is allowed our own personal belief on the subject. It really doesn't go over well when you tell someone what they belive.

[cursor]

I think it's clear that early church leaders knew substantially less than we know today. We now have everything that they had then, and much, much more. Most, if not all, of the archaeological and anthropological data that we have at our fingertips today was simply not available in the early years of the church. To attempt a geograhical fit between the Book of Mormon peoples/events and ancient cultures/events, is quite simply, unnecessary and ill-advised.

cursor said: "To attempt a geograhical fit between the Book of Mormon peoples/events and ancient cultures/events, is quite simply, unnecessary and ill-advised."

Have you informed your father of this?

Clearly I mis-spoke/typed. I expect that the reason was because I was pretty sleep deprived during my UT visit.

For clarity, please allow me to correct/restate that last line:

"To attempt a geograhical fit between the Book of Mormon peoples/events and ancient cultures/events

without considering the wealth of scholarly data available

, is simply unnecessary and ill-advised."

Edited August 5, 2012 by cursor

[cdowis]

I always considered snarky to be expressed by individuals who get up in sacrament meetings, serve missions, teach their children in FHE, give their testimonies of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, of Joseph Smith being called to be a true prophet...then turn around and claim he and other early leaders of the Church didn't know geography - as an excuse for the failings of the LGT. To think a GT would contradict and not elevate our early leaders is apparently asking too much. But apparently the standard for and the acceptance of the LGT isn't that high.

Kind regards.

I believe that JS was a true prophet. I can accept the idea that he was very familiar with the doctrines of the kingdom of God, but not intimately familiar with the details of BOM geography. BOM geography is not a doctrinal issue, but an issue of factual investigation, using science and the BOM text.

Clearly you consider this a statement from one who has fallen away from the church, or weak in the faith. But I cannot find the most powerful microscope on this planet where I can detect that your opinion of my spiritual standing bothers me in the least.

Edited August 5, 2012 by cdowis

[Scott Lloyd]

Was I being snarky? Snarky is in the eye of the beholder.

I always considered snarky to be expressed by individuals who get up in sacrament meetings, serve missions, teach their children in FHE, give their testimonies of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, of Joseph Smith being called to be a true prophet...then turn around and claim he and other early leaders of the Church didn't know geography - as an excuse for the failings of the LGT. To think a GT would contradict and not elevate our early leaders is apparently asking too much. But apparently the standard for and the acceptance of the LGT isn't that high.

Kind regards.

Dogmatizing on matters on which the Lord has remained silent, then using that dogma as the basis for denouncing another's faithfulness as a Latter-day Saint, strikes me as a violation of the Savior's commandment to "judge righteous judgment."

[cdowis]

Dogmatizing on matters on which the Lord has remained silent, then using that dogma as the basis for denouncing another's faithfulness as a Latter-day Saint, strikes me as a violation of the Savior's commandment to "judge righteous judgment."

True, but this is not Social Hall. In this particular forum, it's just a rhetorical device -- nothing personal.

You will note that I did not condemned him for his view of my spiritual state, but I was "snarky" and mocked it. I am looking forward to his response, because I have only gotten started.

Just another day at the office.

Edited August 6, 2012 by cdowis

[ERayR]

Once again, I have to inform the uniformed of their LGT belief. No straw man was constructed by me.

This is the straw man:

What may startle some about this situation is that most of what Joseph Smith said or implied about geography indicates that he did not understand or was ambiguous about the fact, as it turns out, that Mesoamerica was the particular setting for Nephite history. et cetera...

http://maxwellinstit...d=41&chapid=196

Kind regards.

Is that a Meldrumite standard answer?

[Scott Lloyd]

Clearly I mis-spoke/typed. I expect that the reason was because I was pretty sleep deprived during my UT visit.

For clarity, please allow me to correct/restate that last line:

"To attempt a geograhical fit between the Book of Mormon peoples/events and ancient cultures/events

without considering the wealth of scholarly data available

, is simply unnecessary and ill-advised."

Thank you for that crucial clarification. I confess you had me scratching my head.