Vote On The First Vision At Sunstone

[Pahoran]

Normally this would be true, but with JS we have a different situation. For example, if one concludes the BOM isn't real history, that the plates were fake, we can dismiss JS's vision of Moroni as untrue and the three witnesses as hallucination.

IOW, your conclusions control the evidence.

Thank you for your candour on this point.

Regards,

Pahoran

[mfbukowski]

IOW, your conclusions control the evidence.

Thank you for your candour on this point.

Regards,

Pahoran

Precisely.

[rodheadlee]

Today is election day! I'm so excited I couldn't sleep. When will the results be posted?

[robuchan]

Bump. Is there a summary of this anywhere?

[why me]

Bump. Is there a summary of this anywhere?

I was thinking the same thing. There should be a summary of the event and what happened. No matter the summary the debate will continue for many years to come. And we will all only find out the truth of the book of mormon when we die. Such is the way life is.

[Tacenda]

That was an interesting way to present and then get the votes. I loved it when Sandra Tanner voted with the black card everytime, which pretty much meant she didn't believe their even was a first vision or persecuton in the early days,etc.

[CASteinman]

That was an interesting way to present and then get the votes. I loved it when Sandra Tanner voted with the black card everytime, which pretty much meant she didn't believe their even was a first vision or persecuton in the early days,etc.

Where did you see it?

[Tacenda]

Where did you see it?

I attended the symposium, my first time ever...I was so suprised that it was, to me, so faith promoting.

When I attended the "vision vote", I was late because I pulled myself away from the polygamy/polyandry session where Brian Hales and Todd Compton and others were presenting. My husband came after work and joined me for the last part of the day. He really didn't get what all the hoopla was about. Anyway, back to what I wanted to say. I happen to look over during the vote and see Sandra about 3 people down from me.

I guess I shouldn't have been surprised to see her there. There was a good mix of non believers and believers, from what I could tell.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Tacenda

[CASteinman]

I attended the symposium, my first time ever...I was so supriised that it was, to me, so faith promoting.

As I read this (and connected it to the idea that you loved someone voting consistently that the first vision was a total lie) I thought, "Probably she and I have a different idea of what constitutes 'faith promoting'."

There was a good mix of non believers and believers, from what I could tell.

In my mind there is no such thing as a "good" mix that includes anti-Mormons.

But thank you for letting me know how you got the information. What was the result when it was all over?

Edited July 28, 2012 by CASteinman

[Tacenda]

As I read this (and connected it to the idea that you loved someone voting consistently that the first vision was a total lie) I thought, "Probably she and I have a different idea of what constitutes 'faith promoting'."

In my mind there is no such thing as a "good" mix that includes anti-Mormons.

But thank you for letting me know how you got the information. What was the result when it was all over?

I think it was a "good" mix of non believers and believers because of the spirit that presented itself in the meeting at the end with Maxine and Don. If it affected my belief that there is hope to believe, I'm sure it wasn't just myself. And there were many there that I saw at a recent Mormon Stories conference. In fact in between the speakers they had someone get up and sing "Praise to the Man". And soon someone from the audience walked up and joined him in singing that song and one by one random people got up from the audience to sing. The faith promoting thing about that is that alot of people that struggle with Joseph Smith's foibles or imperfections usually don't like that song and won't sing it, well this whole room sang that song, and tears were shed. It was accompanied by Todd Compton and Mark Thomas on string instruments.

To answer your question of how faith promoting was the vote on the vision, there were far fewer holding up the black card of non belief in it compared to the many that believed it happened but in the different scenerios. Like for me, I raised my hand (didn't have colored cards because I arrived late) on the scenario that his prayer started out in praying for forgiveness, because that's what is in his handwritten vision, but others voted that he also asked which church to join and saw two personages and combined them in the end when he put it down in the final draft of the "first vision". So very faith promoting since they presented that it could have happened that way.

Can't remember the exact results though, someone on here will probably be able to give that to you.

About Sandra Tanner, if you know who she is, therein is the funny part. She is anti but IMHO not a bad person, she just got caught up in the discrepancies in church history and was never able to regain her footing like, say, Don Bradley.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Tacenda

[CASteinman]

I think it was a "good" mix of non believers and believers because of the spirit that presented itself in the meeting at the end with Maxine and Don. If it affected my belief that there is hope to believe, I'm sure it wasn't just myself. And there were many there that I saw at a recent Mormon Stories conference. In fact in between the speakers they had someone get up and sing "Praise fo the Man". And soon someone from the audience walked up and joined him in singing that song and one by one random people got in the audience got up to sing. The faith promoting thing about that is that alot of people that struggled with Joseph Smith's foibles or imperfections usually don't like that song and won't sing it, well this whole room sang that song, and tears were shed. It was accompianed (sp)) by Todd Compton and Mark Thomas on string instruments.

Maybe I was wrong! Seems so, based upon your description.

To answer your question of how faith promoting was the vote on the vision, there were far fewer holding up the black card of non belief in it compared to the many that believed it happened but in the different scenerios. Like for me I raised my hand (didn't have colored cards because I arrived late) on the scenario that his prayer started out in praying for forgiveness, because that's what is in his handwritten vision, but others voted that he also asked which church to join and saw two personages and combined them in the end when he put it down in the final draft of the "first visioin". So very faith promoting since they presented that it could have happened that way.

I believe that he was praying for forgiveness too. I say that not simply because he said so, but because, after reading his personal writings -- I have been so impressed by his constant, relentless praying to God in his writings that he might be forgiven and that his faults might be shored up. It was a recurring constant theme. It resonated with me because I do that -- all the time.

I don't mean to say I am like him in most ways. But I really connect to him in that regard.

So, I fully believe he was praying for forgiveness and asking for direction.

About Sandra Tanner, if you know who she is, therein is the funny part. She is anti but IMHO not a bad person, she just got caught up in the discrepancies in church history and was never able to regain her footing like, say, Don Bradley.

Oh, I think she is a very bad person. Of course that is my opinion. God judges.

[Robert F. Smith]

About Sandra Tanner, you said:

Oh, I think she is a very bad person. Of course that is my opinion. God judges.

I'm not sure what you mean by "very bad."

I went to church once with her and her late husband many years ago. It was a Missionary Alliance Church, and we had Sunday School. During the general meeting, Sandra sang a solo. I have had a number of conversations with Sandra over the years, always pleasant.

I think that she sincerely believes that the LDS Church is a form of heresy and has dedicated her life to converting Mormons to her evangelical christian beliefs.

The upshot, according to Professor Larry Foster of Georgia Tech (History), at https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V17N02_37.pdf, is that she and her husband actually strengthened the LDS Church through constantly calling attention to important founding documents -- which many find faith promoting. Or, as Mike Quinn has said: "The unexamined faith is not worth having."

[CASteinman]

I'm not sure what you mean by "very bad."

Let me be clear then: She seeks to destroy the Peace and Faith of the Saints, tearing them from the Church of Jesus Christ and the source of their Salvation and Exaltation. She does this because she believes profound evil of the Lord's anointed. Whether she is sincere or not (and I will not judge that) it is very bad.

Edited July 28, 2012 by CASteinman

[mfbukowski]

Let me be clear then: She seeks to destroy the Peace and Faith of the Saints, tearing them from the Church of Jesus Christ and the source of their Salvation and Exaltation. She does this because she believes profound evil of the Lord's anointed. Whether she is sincere or not (and I will not judge that) it is very bad.

Are we judged on the intentions of our hearts?

I sure hope so.

[USU78]

Let me be clear then: She seeks to destroy the Peace and Faith of the Saints, tearing them from the Church of Jesus Christ and the source of their Salvation and Exaltation. She does this because she believes profound evil of the Lord's anointed. Whether she is sincere or not (and I will not judge that) it is very bad.

She is also a serial liar, as she demonstrated in her lawsuit against FAIR a few years back.

She is also brazen in her use of falsehood to raise money, as she demonstrated during the pendency of her lawsuit against FAIR a few years back.

She is also a thief, as she demonstrated in her repeated violations of the Lanham Act which led to her unsuccessful defenses against suits brought by the Church to get back its intellectual property rights.

[Tacenda]

Wow, these are things I do not want to know about Sandra. Maybe we shouldn't speak about her unless she could be on here and defend herself.

[CASteinman]

Are we judged on the intentions of our hearts?

Jesus is judge and has said we will be judged by our words, works and fruits. Here are things that He has said about it:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world. I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself. Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done. And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless. Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow…mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me but have done that which was meet in mine eyes and which I commanded them. But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves. And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death— Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them. They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation. It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea.

Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell. Behold, mine eyes see and know all their works, and I have in reserve a swift judgment in the season thereof, for them all; For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world. And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

There is, of course, a passage where Jesus talks about discerning people by the intent of their hearts. But there is not so much gentileness even in that passage where He says:

“hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, whose word is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of the joints and marrow, soul and spirit”

I am not trying to be all grim here, but it was Jesus who likened himself to a “hard” man -- something it seems we want to forget or ignore. I am not advocating the preaching of hell-fire and damnation but I am relaying the words He gave about how He will do things and how He looks upon people who discomfort the Saints and charge His anointed with sin. And I have not cherry picked or taken these words out of context. I have been pretty much as complete as is reasonable and left very little unturned in this matter.

It seems to me that these will not be welcome words to some people, but they are the words of the Lord. I could, of course, make them sound easier and more slack in paraphrase I suppose.

[mfbukowski]

She is also a serial liar, as she demonstrated in her lawsuit against FAIR a few years back.

She is also brazen in her use of falsehood to raise money, as she demonstrated during the pendency of her lawsuit against FAIR a few years back.

She is also a thief, as she demonstrated in her repeated violations of the Lanham Act which led to her unsuccessful defenses against suits brought by the Church to get back its intellectual property rights.

Yeah, but other than that.....

[CASteinman]

Yeah, but other than that.....

.... Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?

[Ron Beron]

Wow, these are things I do not want to know about Sandra. Maybe we shouldn't speak about her unless she could be on here and defend herself.

What would you like to know? Only the good? Or does those things that she believes and commits a detraction to your beliefs? She is also welcome to come here and debate.

[Tacenda]

What would you like to know? Only the good? Or does those things that she believes and commits a detraction to your beliefs? She is also welcome to come here and debate.

Well it just seemed awfully onesided to me. And I just thought she was like so many evangelicals out there that don't hate mormons just what they think we believe.

[Ron Beron]

Well it just seemed awfully onesided to me. And I just thought she was like so many evangelicals out there that don't hate mormons just what they think we believe.

She represents a type of ex-Mormon who can't let go. She seems to have harbored such a dislike and even resentment for her tenure as a Mormon that it has clouded her life and pursuits. A number of years ago I visited an Ex-Mormons for Jesus center and was spoke with two people. One, an evangelical was sweet and answered my questions. The other, an ex-Mormon, was vindictive and angry with me because I was still a Mormon and eventually refused to speak with me. While I understand the anger and resentment to some degree I cannot understand the intolerance of some for a belief system that is not their own. I used to be a Catholic and while I disagree with their theology I still love what I learned and the way in which I learned it. Additionally, I would be loathe to show Catholics and evangelicals where I think their beliefs are in error with the gospel as I know it.

[Tacenda]

She represents a type of ex-Mormon who can't let go. She seems to have harbored such a dislike and even resentment for her tenure as a Mormon that it has clouded her life and pursuits. A number of years ago I visited an Ex-Mormons for Jesus center and was spoke with two people. One, an evangelical was sweet and answered my questions. The other, an ex-Mormon, was vindictive and angry with me because I was still a Mormon and eventually refused to speak with me. While I understand the anger and resentment to some degree I cannot understand the intolerance of some for a belief system that is not their own. I used to be a Catholic and while I disagree with their theology I still love what I learned and the way in which I learned it. Additionally, I would be loathe to show Catholics and evangelicals where I think their beliefs are in error with the gospel as I know it.

I agree with what you say about her and some ex mormons and even those on the fringe. They are living a personal hell in their thinking. It's like they can't leave the church alone because they left on what they believe are good reasons, and it's hard for them to watch other mormons living what they have determined is a lie, and maybe deep down think they might be wrong, and seeing that every bad thing they say about the church doesnt phase the TBM's seems to verify it. So I feel sorry for them. They have it much worse than Evangelicals that have never been LDS.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Tacenda

[ERayR]

I agree with what you say about her and some ex mormons and even those on the fringe. They are living a personal hell in their thinking. It's like they can't leave the church alone because they left on what they believe are good reasons, and it's hard for them to watch other mormons living what they have determined is a lie, and maybe deep down think they might be wrong, and seeing that every bad thing they say about the church doesnt phase the TBM's seems to verify it. So I feel sorry for them. They have it much worse than Evangelicals that have never been LDS.

And they want everybody else to be miserable like unto themselves.

[CASteinman]

Well it just seemed awfully onesided to me. And I just thought she was like so many evangelicals out there that don't hate mormons just what they think we believe.

She's not exactly evangelical. She is more precisely anti-Mormon.

I have some friends who are evangelical -- and we don't agree as to doctrine (I find that sometimes they are pretty unschooled in things-- and so I avoid getting to deep into discussions with them out of a desire not to embarrass them in scriptures) but I get along with them and after we have gotten to know each other, we accept one another as believers... and pray together.

I don't feel she fits in the same boat.

Edited to add:

The reason I think she is more an anti-Mormon than an evangelical is that she rarely really discusses her religion compared to how often she discusses her dislike of things Mormon.

HOWEVER, there is a counter argument that could be made: She never applies the same types of analysis and criticism to her evangelical beliefs as she does to Mormonism and in that way, I think a case could be made that she is Evangelical -- so Evangelical that she does not even look at it critically.

Edited July 29, 2012 by CASteinman