Creator or Creators

[Big Dogger]

The Trinity is not a mystery in the sense of being a puzzle which some genius will someday solve.

[noahnoah]

If you take Jesus out of the Godhead, you destroy Mormonism. Jesus Christ is the center. The book of Mormon is a witness for Him.

Scott

Well I'm not really focusing on Mormonism per se. Whether Mormonism is destroyed or not by your teachings there would still be 2 other Gods, in christianity God would cease to exist.

[noahnoah]

Then who would be my Savior? How could I obtain Salvation? Who would be the Mediator between God and Man? We would no longer be able to inherit all that the Father has and be co-heirs with Christ. Stephen would not have seen two beings before his death while he was filled with the spirit - only one. There would be no way for us to recieve mercy without Christ - we would be subject to the full demands of the law. We would be eternally separated from the Father. As Scott pointed out the BoM would be empty in purpose, it would be a thin book proclaiming all mankind is damned to hell. Without Christ, we would never resurrect - we would never truely live again.

So no - you can not take Christ out of HIS church.

You are addressing the functions of Jesus which is not the question. Salvation, mediator, thats all a functions that Jesus performs which is not where the disagreement comes about. Stephen seeing two individuals does not mean that they are not coequal, copowerful and coexistent. I could very easily say to you that the bible beats the issue like a dead horse that there is only ONE GOD! Again the purpose of the BOM is not the issue. I'll try to illustrate my point. If there was a picture of God, which included all the persons. By your teachings Jesus is simply one of the 3, mutually exclusive from the other, so with that said, you could take Jesus out of the picture and you would still have 2 GODS LEFT! Now what that would do to your beliefs, the teachings of christ is not the issue. THe point is you all would believe there are 2 OTHER GODS out there. We believe that if you take Jesus out of the picture, GOD CEASES TO EXIST.

God Bless

[noahnoah]

Here is the problem. It is our critics that are trying to smush extra-biblical trinitarianism with Christianity.

GOD SAYS:

I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

[noahnoah]

One other thing. Christians are those who believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Savior of the world. Christians does not mean those who believe in the trinity. Unless you can find passages in the bible to prove me wrong.

What CHRISTIANS collectively believe is whatever the MAJORITY of christians believe? I pose the same question to you, Christians does not mean those who believe in Jesus, the Son and Holy Ghost. Unless you can find passages in the bible to prove me wrong? As you see, this is not a question that is answered by going to the Bible becasue it does not specifically mention the word TRINITY, but following the rest of his word, for what it says and nothing more, it is the most reasonable explanation. I did a little research just to poll what christians believe..as you'll see most christians DO believe in the trinity. Have a look here...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/ch...ianity/beliefs/

in case you don't won't to go look there here is an excerpt:

The Trinity

Christians believe in the Trinity - that is in God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Some confuse this and think that Christians believes in three separate gods, which they don't.

Christians believe in God, who on earth took human form as Jesus Christ and who, through the work of the Holy Spirit, is present today and evident in the works of believers.

Now this is a third part, not a christian evangelical website.

Here's another:

http://www.elizabethchurchofchrist.org/ECO...ristianity.html

Christianity: Who/What is God?

God is the three-person-in-one-being, often called the Trinity. Christians don't make up information about God; they find what He is like from the pages of the Bible. The three persons who are each God, but each distinct from the other, are God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit. No-one has ever seen God the Father or God the Holy Spirit, but many people have seen God the Son, while Jesus lived on earth in the Middle East. The Bible tells us that if we want to see what God is like, we'll find out by looking at what Jesus is like. Here are a few character traits of Jesus:

[noahnoah]

AMEN Big Dogger

[Paul Osborne]

Well, I'm behind a few posts and you guys are still at it.

You can call God a Rock but you can't call a rock a Man.

God is a Man. The Bible told me so.

Paul O

[LDS4EVER]

LDS4EVER writes

One question. Johnny says that Jesus isn't God. you say:

Jesus is God using "God" as divinity.

Jesus isn't God using "God" as the Father or the Son is the not Father.

The Bible tells us that we should believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

How do you define "God"?

How are you using "God"?

Could you provide some scriptures that would support your usage and defination?

If your children used the double talk that you use to discribe the trinity, you'd punish them. How I define God is irrelevant. Jesus is a God but he isn't a God. Make up your mind then we can talk.

[LDS4EVER]

Christians does not mean those who believe in Jesus, the Son and Holy Ghost. Unless you can find passages in the bible to prove me wrong?

Tell ya what sport. Find the word Christian in the bible and tell me the context that it is used in. Was it used as a discription of those that believed in and followed the teachings of the Savior?

Any other definition would be a hijack of the word.

[Alexander]

I have a question for you Big Dogger. If the Trinity is really such a mystery (A religious truth that is incomprehensible to reason and knowable only through divine revelation) than why do evangelicals, when presented with an alternative such as the Latter-day Saint viewpoint, smack their heads in disbelief and express awe in how anyone could come to an absurd conclusion. I don

[johnny]

LDS4EVER  writes,

How I define God is irrelevant.

If defining God is irrelevant then are you saying that Jesus (the Son) is God (the Father)?

In other words are you saying that the person of the Son is the same person as the Father ... clearly the Bible would disagree with your usage ...

[Tanyan]

johnny somehow I don't think you obtained/grasped LDS4EVER'S Point .

[Paul Osborne]

johnny somehow I don't think you obtained/grasped LDS4EVER'S Point .

Nor can anyone seem to obtain/grasp the Trinity God.

Somehow they evaporate Jesus into the Trinity as if he isn't a real Man, a Person who walked the dusty streets of Palestine. He testified of his Father who sent him and told us that Father was his God and ours. Jesus showed us the true nature of God. Father is the all powerful Man of heaven!

The vision John saw of the heavens with angels in front of the throne and Jesus taking the book out of the hand of the Father is absolute Bible proof and there just isn't any excuse to not see the Gods for who they are.

Johnny has this idea that the vision is convoluted imagery that was just something St. John was expressing to keep us informed about what was happening in Trinity mystery. But I reject Johnny's denial of St. Johns revelation and testimony.

It's picture perfect evidence. You have no excuse, Johnny - none whatsover. The Lord gave you the photograph and you have rejected it.

Paul O

[LDS4EVER]

LDS4EVER

[Tanyan]

LDS4EVER, Has testified/Clarified !.

[johnny]

Paul Osborne  writes,

Nor can anyone seem to obtain/grasp the Trinity God.

The Athanasian Creed grasps the Trinity very well (see the link below):

http://www.aboutcatholics.com/viewpage.php?story=3

Below are some of the highlights from the Athanasian Creed:

- we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity

- the Son is uncreated

- there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being

- there are not three gods; there is but one God.

- our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and human

LDS4EVER  writes,

I am saying - as John says in John 1:1 - Jesus is God.

How many Gods are their in Mormonism ... if Jesus is God and the Father is God?

Mormonism reveals multiple Gods created:

http://scriptures.lds.org/abr/5/7#7

http://scriptures.lds.org/abr/4/3#3

Jesus, the Apostles, and the Early Church Fathers did not teach multiple Gods

(see the links below for the Early Church Fathers).

http://comparing-views.com/

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/contents.htm

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=4954&hl=

Below are some of the Early Church Father teachings on the Trinity:

- Regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ... it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension (Origen 230AD)

- The Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other (Tertullian 213AD)

- A Triad is preached by Scripture, neither Old Testament nor New preaches three Gods (Pope Dionysius 262 AD)

- Divinity may be spoken of as one in three persons, the trinity is established, unity is not dissevered (Gregory 270AD)

- I do not mean that there are two Gods (Hippolytus 210AD)

- For both are one--that is, God (Clement of Alexandria 202AD)

- The Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son (Athenagoras 177 AD)

- No division of substance, but merely an extension. Christ is Spirit of Spirit ... the two are one (Tertullian 197AD)

- The Logos is God, being the substance of God (Hippolytus 220AD)

- He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God (Justin Martyr 155AD)

[Paul Osborne]

The Athanasian Creed grasps the Trinity very well (see the link below):

http://www.aboutcatholics.com/viewpage.php?story=3

Below are some of the highlights from the Athanasian Creed:

- we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity

- the Son is uncreated

- there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being

- there are not three gods; there is but one God.

- our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and human

Mormonism/Biblical:

- we worship three Gods in one Godhead

- the Son was created by his Father

- there are three eternal beings; they are agreed as one Godhead

- there are three Gods; there is but one Godhead

- our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son is both God and a divine human

Paul O

[johnny]

Paul Osborne  writes,

Mormonism/Biblical:

Where in the Bible does it reveal the following?

- we worship three Gods in one Godhead

- the Son was created by his Father

- there are three eternal beings; they are agreed as one Godhead

- there are three Gods; there is but one Godhead

[LDS4EVER]

Thus the Father is God,

    the Son is God,

    the Holy Spirit is God.

          Yet there are not three gods;

          there is but one God.

    Thus the Father is Lord,

    the Son is Lord,

    the Holy Spirit is Lord.

          Yet there are not three lords;

          there is but one Lord.

Mass confusion. It's no wonder trinitarians don't agree on the doctrine. Three God but not three Gods? That is the question.

[Paul Osborne]

LDS are baptized in the name of the father, Son, and Holy Ghost.(Matthew 28:19)

LDS believe there is "One Lord", "One Shepherd", and One God over all the earth which consist of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This means that there is no other God in existence that can save us except for the One God which consist of three divine Persons. (Mark 12:29; Compare: 1 Nephi 13:41; 2 Ne 31:21; Mosiah 15:4)

LDS believe that Jesus was God Almighty from before the foundation of this world. (John 1:1)

LDS believe that it is life eternal to know the only true God by the power of the Spirit in the Celestial Kingdom which is Jesus Christ AND God the Father. We must know both Persons. Both means TWO and they are agreed together in all things. (John 17:3)

LDS believe that Thomas beheld the resurrected living Christ (before his ascension) who is the God of our Salvation while God the Father was waiting for him in heaven. (John 20:28)

LDS believe that Jesus is the blessed God. (Romans 9:5)

LDS believe that we are saved by calling upon the name of the Personage known as Jesus Christ. Only through the name of the Son of God can we gain salvation. (10:9-13)

LDS believe that by the power of the Spirit, hereafter, man may be changed into the exact same glory and image as God himself and become Gods too, from everlasting to everlasting. (2 Cor. 3:16-18)

LDS believe in the grace of Jesus Christ, that God our Father loves us, and that we can FEEL and understand that love by the communion of the Holy Ghost. This is how LDS get their testimonies. (2 Cor 13:14)

LDS believe that the THREE separate Persons of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God in purpose. We believe that only ONE member (Christ) of that ONE God is the Mediator between the Father and mankind. (1 Tim. 2:5)

LDS believe that God the Savior who is Jesus Christ will appear in glory at his second coming. (Titus 2:13-14)

LDS believe that Christ created the world and that God of Jesus Christ anointed Jesus with the oil of gladness. (Heb. 1:8-12)

LDS believe in the righteousness "of our God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Greek 2 Peter 1:1)

LDS believe that the true God is the Father & Son. (1 John 5:20)

LDS believe that Jesus symbolically taught that he was in the image of his Father. (John 14:9)

LDS believe that Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God. (Col. 1:15 Webster's Dictionary "invisible"... 1. not visible; that cannot be seen 2. out of sight; not apparent.

LDS believe that Jesus Christ sat down at the right hand side of his Father. All heaven's creations before the throne see TWO Personages. (Heb. 1:2-3). Can anyone prove that God does not have a physical body Show me in the Bible where it says that God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones? The Bible affirms, "For as the FATHER HATH LIFE IN HIMSELF; so also hath he given to the Son to have LIFE IN HIMSELF" or in other words, "For as the FATHER HAS A BODY OF FLESH AND BONE; so also hath he given to the Son to have a BODY OF FLESH AND BONE"

LDS believe that Jesus is Almighty and has all power. (Matt. 28:18)

LDS believe that the Father gave seed to Mary and she begat Jesus who is the Only Begotten Son. (Heb. 1:6)

LDS believe that Jesus is a separate and distinct individual and that the Father is his God. Here we see TWO Gods with one purpose as they are ONE Lord over the whole earth. (John 20:17)

LDS believe that Jesus has a physical body of the fullness of glory in the Godhead and that he is the Head of the church body. (Colossians 1:18; 2:9)

LDS believe in THREE gods who are ONE Lord in unity and purpose.

LDS praise the name of Jesus Christ!

LDS are thankful that the Father sent his Son and look forward to seeing both of them in the hereafter. The Father at one arm and the Son at the other. That's three persons if you count yourself.

Paul O

[johnny]

Paul Osborne  writes,

LDS believe in THREE gods who are ONE Lord in unity and purpose.

Clearly THREE gods are not revealed in the Bible.

[johnny]

LDS4EVER  writes,

Mass confusion. It's no wonder trinitarians don't agree on the doctrine. Three God but not three Gods? That is the question.

Or maybe you are confused about the usage of the word "God".

How are using the word "God"?

[Paul Osborne]

Thus the Father is God,

[johnny]

Paul Osborne  writes,

It is confusion.

I would agree it is confusion on your part ... the Early Church Fathers were not confused, they taught one God ... Jesus was not confused, he taught one God.

Off to work I must go ... I will respond later tonight.

[LDS4EVER]

Paul Osborne