Paul Osborne Posted November 28, 2004 Posted November 28, 2004 Paul, did you read and do a bit of study on Phillipians 2 yet? I didn't see where you addressed my post.Do we have to ask a modern day prophet to reveal anything about Jesus/God/Holy Spirit that has not already been revealed - once for all??????What is the point of it Paul? Just asking why I
Paul Osborne Posted November 28, 2004 Posted November 28, 2004 Seems to me that God is clearly not a man, nor in the form of a man, if Phillipians is true - If Jesus were in our form before, why the need to become in the flesh of a man??? The Book of Mormon gives answers to your questions. Read it, pray about it, and receive a witness.God is a Man. He is not an it, or a being incapable of standing on his own two feet. You are made in his image whether you like it or not. I suggest you get use to it and prepare to meet him at the last day.Paul O
ScriptureLover Posted November 28, 2004 Posted November 28, 2004 Paul, your frankness is in many ways quite refreshing. Thanks for the interesting thread! WOW
ScriptureLover Posted November 28, 2004 Posted November 28, 2004 Elihu states that Jesus could not be a man if Philippians is true.So, I read Philippians chapter 2, and found verse 7 which stopped me dead in my tracks.NIV - but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross!Even Roberton's Word Pictures shows that Jesus is a man in form and likeness - Philippians 2:7 - The form of a servant (morph
Tanyan Posted November 29, 2004 Posted November 29, 2004 ScriptureLover I have used good old A.T.R in the past !. GReat observation, it will be interesting to see any response from Elihu.
ScriptureLover Posted November 29, 2004 Posted November 29, 2004 Well, I mean after all, it says he TOOK the *FORM* of a human servant. Uh, if my scripture reading is remembered in this cranium of mine, was it just a spirit who walked on water, and just an immaterial spirit that was crucified?! The very thought boggles the mind. Everything about Jesus is everything about God. What Jesus is, God is. B. H. Roberts discusion with Von der Donckt in "The Mormon Doctrine of Deity," is perhaps one of the clearest statements of this in print.I think Orson Pratt's comment in the JD's, Vol 12, p. 320, is interesting as well - The Lord says, "Unto me all things are spiritual." Did God make this earth? Yes. Well, it was a spiritual work. He spake, His word went forth out of His mouth, the elements were brought together and organized, and the earth was made very good. It was a spiritual work. We may call it temporal; but God, in all things pertaining to His works, is spiritual, and all things to Him as He says in one of the revelations, are spiritual. But unto you, ye Latter-day Saints because of your traditions, He has made a little distinction, and called some things temporal and some spiritual. In the great day of the fullness of the redemption that is promised to the Saints, for which we all hope, do we expect to be admitted into the presence of a Being who has no materiality about Him? Do we expect to be admitted into a heaven that consists of spiritual things according to our ideas? Do we expect when we get there that we will find beings in whose image we are, and yet they be intangible and without substance? If we are material, so will they be. If we have flesh and bones after the resurrection, so will they have flesh and bones. If we are male and female after the resurrection, so will they be in heavenly society. If we have thrones of a material nature, so will they have, and their thrones will be just as material in their nature as the thrones of this world. It is true that those personages, their thrones and the elements by which they are surrounded will all be pure. They will be uncontaminated by sin, being so purified and sanctified that sin will have no dominion there. But because everything there is pure, it does not make it altogether immaterial in its nature, it is still an enduring substance. And when we receive our inheritance there, we shall receive a tangible inheritance, a spiritual inheritance, and a material inheritance. Will it consist of land? Yes just as much as the land on which we walk; but the land will be purified and sanctified. It will neither be contaminated nor unclean, and none but the clean, pure and sanctified will possess inheritances there. Do we have material books here in this world from which we gain information? Yes. Will they not be material also in that world? Will there not be books and records there in abundance? Will not the acts and doings of the children of men be recorded in books in that world? Will not your sealings and blessings, and the powers and keys that have been bestowed upon you be recorded there in books, as well as in books in this world? Well, then, it is all spiritual and it is all material in its nature. Are we to possess these spiritual and eternal riches in that world? We are told in numerous laws which God has given that all of this people are to be made one as it were. No division there; no quarreling about property; no such thing as one person sitting away down in rags and another lifted up with immense riches.Erastus Snow said in JD's, Vol 19, p. 272 - Not only so, but this Godhead composing two parts, male and female, is also composed of two elements, spiritual and temporal. Or in other words, two organisms; the one capable of dwelling within the other. The spirit dwelling within the outer tabernacle, answering to the spirit what our clothing answers to this body, as a covering and shield and protection. The spirit is also an element. It is not an immaterial nothing as some imagine. We read about material and immaterial things, and such terms are used by men for the want of more suitable language to correctly represent ideas; but in truth there is no such thing as immaterial substance. Though we are told that God is an immaterial substance, and you read the philosophic descriptions of the Deity by some of these learned divines, and it is all simmered down to an immateriality or nothing at all. But there is no such thing as immaterial substance in the strict sense of the word; and immateriality when rigidly defined is another definition for nothing at all.I believe that aptitude and philosophy can certainly be applied to Jesus..........
noahnoah Posted November 29, 2004 Posted November 29, 2004 Paul Osborne states:I can't accept your testimonial as accurate and I sincerely think you are confused about your Trinity, hence you confessed that you don't understand it. Your Trinity is plural, a Godhead of three persons, multiple Gods - not one, but three, and you package it into one box and call it one.Trinitarianism is not preaching one God but three persons as one God - plural Gods as one. If you want to worship just one God you will have to convert to Islam. Islam is the perfect example of one God. Sorry, but that is the way it is. You are not a monotheist! Muslims and the Jews are monotheist but not Christians. Christianity is plural Gods and so also is Mormonism. At least we have that much in common, brother.Paul O That is not entirely correct. We believe in the Trinity, three persons, 1 God as stick stated. Now, when you are try to push our beliefs and mormon beliefs into the same package is flat-out wrong. Another attempt to try to make christians and mormons the same. I have heard Mormons refer to the "council" of Gods or something of that nature? This would indicate seperate Gods, with seperate ideologies, seperate influences and unique individualities specific to each God. That is not what we believe, to the contrary we believe that despite there exist 3 distinct persons within our 1 God, they do not have differing opinions, their own ideas or could never choose to go against each other. Their ideas are of one accord, one nature and one plan. The Mormons council of gods could THEORETICALLY cast a vote and arrive at a 2 to 1 decision, where as there can never be a disagreement within our 3 personhoods of our God. You take away any of the 3 persons of our Trinity and you no longer have "a" God. In your shoes, you take away one of your Gods, you would simply have 2 gods instead of one. We do not believe the same and the more I speak with Mormons the more I uncover the many different ways that Mormonism tries to attach itself or make itself look like Christianity when it's not. Prophets have blasted the chrisitan churches and even Joseph Smith claiming they were all corrupted etc. Mormons label themselves with christian-like attributes and on the outside look christian, all to lure in converts. And then latter on down the road pervert the word of God and change all sorts of things. Thats not right. I wish missionaries would be upfront and tell converts everything from the get-go. I bet the convert rate would drop substantially....probably exponentionally. Later
ScriptureLover Posted November 29, 2004 Posted November 29, 2004 No offense meant, but you misunderstand the idea of the Council of the Gods. However, that was one of the more creative ways of viewing this concept I will admit. We are not trying to pervert anything in order for us to try and look more like Christianity. That is just silly.Even a Catholic Catechism book I read in our hometown library flat out stated that the Trinity is *not* in the Bible, but has been read back onto it and into it.
noahnoah Posted November 29, 2004 Posted November 29, 2004 Paul:The Book of Mormon gives answers to your questions. Read it, pray about it, and receive a witness.God is a Man. He is not an it, or a being incapable of standing on his own two feet. You are made in his image whether you like it or not. I suggest you get use to it and prepare to meet him at the last day.Paul O Hosea: I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim. For I am God, and not man- the Holy One among you. Romans: For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Despite your statement I think whether you like it or not, you should re-address whether God is man? It also did not say we were made in "HIS" image it said "OUR" image? The holy spirit is part of that "our" correct? Does that mean the holy spirit is a man? I think this clearly shows that "our" image does not mean a man, furthermore he states that he is NOT man in scriptures. I've never understood Mormons position on how God came to be? If he is an exalted man, who was his God, and before that and before that? I guess "who was the first God"? It had to start somewhere? I don't know what God or Gods you all believe in but mine is the one that started it all, and as he says, there is none other than him. If you guys want to believe in these intermediary gods, multiple God, or whatever Gods, but you have to wonder who is the ORIGINAL, THE FIRST, and ALPHA? Then if you admit that there had to be a first, then that would have to admit that he is complete deity and NOT man, and never was man, because man can only been created.
noahnoah Posted November 29, 2004 Posted November 29, 2004 No offense meant, but you misunderstand the idea of the Council of the Gods. However, that was one of the more creative ways of viewing this concept I will admit. We are not trying to pervert anything in order for us to try and look more like Christianity. That is just silly.Even a Catholic Catechism book I read in our hometown library flat out stated that the Trinity is *not* in the Bible, but has been read back onto it and into it. Please break it down for me? What is the council? I KNOW the Trinity is NOT in the bible it is the most reasonable expalnation viewing the Bible as a whole. He says there is only 1 GOD many..many times. So that should be case closed, but the Jesus is referred to as God, the Father is also and even the holy spirit? So you draw your conclusion with those given clues. The idea of many Gods is clearly not scritpturally based................too many scritpures go against that. Please explain to me the council of Gods, you've got me wondering what it really is?
Jon Haugo Posted November 29, 2004 Posted November 29, 2004 Hi Paul,I can't accept your testimonial as accurate and I sincerely think you are confused about your Trinity, hence you confessed that you don't understand it. Your Trinity is plural, a Godhead of three persons, multiple Gods - not one, but three, and you package it into one box and call it one.Paul, as you can tell, there are a number of Evangelicals that do not know fully what Mormons believe. noahnoah had it right when he said that Mormons are not alway upfront with what they believe. The misunderstanding is therefore understandable. Some Non-Mormons refuse to let go of those wrong perceptions because it is easier to dismiss your beliefs that way. But there is a misconception that you have about Evangelicals that you refuse to let go as well. I am a monothiest as are all Evangelicals. I might be accepting a part-time pastoral position in the near future and I know what I believe. You should study my first post on this thread to help you understand what we believe. I have served in many many denominations and they all hold that belief. If you say that we are wrong in our assessment of ourselves then that is fine. But please go over my post again so you can understand what and why we believe the way we do. It is a harmony of Old Testament & New Testament Scriptures that the church has held from the very beginning. You are correct that the word "trinity" is not in the Bible, but neither is "rapture" or many other words we use to describe biblical theology.SincerelyStick
Tanyan Posted November 29, 2004 Posted November 29, 2004 Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Psalms 82:1-8 let the discussion begin on the heavenly Council !.
noahnoah Posted November 29, 2004 Posted November 29, 2004 Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Psalms 82:1-8 let the discussion begin on the heavenly Council !. So what is the council? Too add to this, I like the scripture but I am pretty sure when I heard mormons speak of it, they did not say "heavenly council", they said Council of Gods. We'll get to the heavenly council, but lets finish what we started on which is the "Council of Gods"? What is that exactly?
ScriptureLover Posted November 29, 2004 Posted November 29, 2004 Noahnoah - Hosea: I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim. For I am God, and not man- the Holy One among you. Yet Exodus 15:3 says clearly that the Lord IS A MAN of war: The Lord is his name.The Hebrew reads "Yahweh 'ish," using the masculine singular common noun. This Hebrew word is used for "male offspring," "husbands," "governors," etc. A man. It is as plain as the scripture on your nose Isaiah 42:3 - "The LORD will march out like a mighty man, like a warrior..."The very famous "Messianic prophecy" of Jesus Christ in Isaiah 53:3, says quite clearly - "He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows,..."So, obviously quoting the Bible to each other isn't going to solve this. Clearly the Bible teaches that God is a MAN, though you apparently won't believe what the Bible teaches. Any other suggestions?
Paul Osborne Posted November 29, 2004 Posted November 29, 2004 noahnoah,Please take the time to read the whole thread and the many comments I have made. God is a Man. He said so himself when he declared in Isaiah that Jehovah is his name and that he is a Man of war. You know the verse; Except it for the truth it reveals. The citation in Hosea is meant to separate the Israeli God from that of the heathen.God is not a sinful man. He is perfect. Our Father is not mortal, and neither is Jesus. They are immortal, perfect, glorified Men of war and Men of peace. St. Paul also made it clear that our God is not animistic in form and neither is he an immortal man or of brute form, subject to sin and imperfection.So, please read the entire thread and remind yourself that God said himself that he is a Man of war and that we are saved by the grace of the Man Christ Jesus. Paul O
Paul Osborne Posted November 29, 2004 Posted November 29, 2004 Stick,You think you are a monotheist, and that is fine. But myself and millions of Jews and Muslims think otherwise. You have taken one God and pluralized his personage - that is not anything like the Islamic God which is truely a monotheistic religion and don't mess around with multiple personalities or manifestations of persons. Christianity is a plural God religion represented in one Godhead.I'm sorry you don't like that conclusion but numners don't lie. Three is plural and a group of three makes one.Paul O
Scott Gordon Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 Because you do not understand, does not mean that anyway you slice it there are plural Gods. It takes 5 players to make a basketball team, right? So with 3 people do you have a team? Of course not. The term TEAM refers to a summation of 5 individuals. As with God, christians belive the makeup of God consists of or is the summation of 3 persons. Like I said before, to a christian, if you take away Jesus, God doesn not exist because he is an integral part of God. IN mormonism, if you take away Jesus you still have 2 other Gods.......thats the difference. No matter how you slice it, you cannot smush mormonism and christianity together. If you take Jesus out of the Godhead, you destroy Mormonism. Jesus Christ is the center. The book of Mormon is a witness for Him. Scott
emaughan Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 IN mormonism, if you take away Jesus you still have 2 other Gods.......thats the difference.Then who would be my Savior? How could I obtain Salvation? Who would be the Mediator between God and Man? We would no longer be able to inherit all that the Father has and be co-heirs with Christ. Stephen would not have seen two beings before his death while he was filled with the spirit - only one. There would be no way for us to recieve mercy without Christ - we would be subject to the full demands of the law. We would be eternally separated from the Father. As Scott pointed out the BoM would be empty in purpose, it would be a thin book proclaiming all mankind is damned to hell. Without Christ, we would never resurrect - we would never truely live again.So no - you can not take Christ out of HIS church.
LDS4EVER Posted November 30, 2004 Author Posted November 30, 2004 No matter how you slice it, you cannot smush mormonism and christianity together. Here is the problem. It is our critics that are trying to smush extra-biblical trinitarianism with Christianity.
Jon Haugo Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 Hi LDS4EVER,Before asserting that statement would you please see my posts on this thread concerning monotheism and the trinity and decide for yourself if it is Biblical. If you have already then never mind, but I hope that if you cannot see that it is Biblical then you can at least see WHY we believe it and see that it does have Biblical merit.http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=5822&st=345
LDS4EVER Posted November 30, 2004 Author Posted November 30, 2004 Hi LDS4EVER,Before asserting that statement would you please see my posts on this thread concerning monotheism and the trinity and decide for yourself if it is Biblical. If you have already then never mind, but I hope that if you cannot see that it is Biblical then you can at least see WHY we believe it and see that it does have Biblical merit.http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=5822&st=345
LDS4EVER Posted November 30, 2004 Author Posted November 30, 2004 One other thing. Christians are those who believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Savior of the world. Christians does not mean those who believe in the trinity. Unless you can find passages in the bible to prove me wrong.
johnny Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 LDS4EVER writesOne question. Johnny says that Jesus isn't God. you say:Jesus is God using "God" as divinity.Jesus isn't God using "God" as the Father or the Son is the not Father.The Bible tells us that we should believe that Jesus is the Son of God.How do you define "God"?How are you using "God"?Could you provide some scriptures that would support your usage and defination?
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