Can The Lds Church Make Mistakes?

[robuchan]

So you think someone on the BoT for BYU signed off on Dan and the other editors' dismissal? (I'll even let you ignore the way it was done.)

What evidence do you have?

You must not know very much about BYU if this is a serious question. It's common feeling among BYU employees that important decisions, and even many not so important decisions, are micromanaged by the BOT. It's a bit ludicrous to think a high profile dismissal like this would be done autonomously.

[CASteinman]

You must not know very much about BYU if this is a serious question. It's common feeling among BYU employees that important decisions, and even many not so important decisions, are micromanaged by the BOT. It's a bit ludicrous to think a high profile dismissal like this would be done autonomously.

So a common feeling is the same thing as a fact?

[Calm]

Actually I know quite a bit. My grandmother moved to Provo to work at BYU for a short time and lived there the rest of her life with multiple professors living in her neighbour (I played on occasion when I visited Grandma with Bill Hamblin's sister). My FIL was a professor/counselor at BYU for eons. I have multiple BYU profs in my neighbourhood, some of which are close friends of the family.

Yeah, I know about the general overall impression. I also know of instances where individuals overstepped their boundaries.

add-on: I am not someone who is a diehard fan of BYU. As a student there, it was okay, but I would have rather had been at Stanford (parents couldn't pay for it and I was too shy at the time to try for scholarships). My husband has had some frustrating experiences with the hiring process, which never did get to the end so when UVU came calling, he jumped at the chance to work on the new program, helping upgrade it to University status and we love the environment there and are very happy he works there and not at that other place in the valley (did you know that more students transfer to UVU now from BYU than the other way around?). It is a much better fit for him and our family....and he gets to keep his beard!!!

Edited July 1, 2012 by calmoriah

[inquiringmind]

Ping Pong...you are asking the wrong question.

I had several posters here admit that it "was a given" that the church makes mistakes. Yet, then other posters come piling on asking for evidence of such mistake.

The question that I seem to be struggling to find the question to...is will the church ever ADMIT to making a mistake?

Aside from the German SP excommunicating the jewish sympathizer...I have not heard any of the faithful board posters admit that the church has ever made a mistake.

What is an SP?

[inquiringmind]

I am an active member of the Church, etc etc. I think I have seen numerous mistakes over the history of the church.

We could start with spelling mistakes in publications & Scripture. Are these Church mistakes?

We could move on to Church leaders stating factually inaccurate things to the church, some of Joseph Smiths "quoting" of scripture in other languages that were not actually correct spring to mind.

Could you give some examples?

[Calm]

What is an SP?

Stake President, the German Stake Branch? President at the time was out of touch with SLC and had to make decisions on his own. It is a very interesting, troubling and uplifting story all at the same time. If you have a chance to study it, I would encourage you to do so. Not sure what is available online, we have a book about it on our shelves that is quite good, a few years old, can't remember the author or title though (and not getting out of bed at the moment to go check ). Edited July 1, 2012 by calmoriah

[CASteinman]

What is an SP?

I am sure he means Stake President, but there was no Stake President.

[Calm]

Could you give some examples?

John Taylor was under the impression due to rumours that Joseph Smith's shots into the crowd had resulted in the deaths of two men, this was reported IIRC in the official Church History, but was inaccurate. No one was killed in the mob though some were wounded.

[CASteinman]

I believe we need some help... what did the OP have in mind when he said "mistake" and "Church"?

[Calm]

I am sure he means Stake President, but there was no Stake President.

Can't remember the details of the story all that well myself save that the boys had used the copying machine at the church to produce anti-Nazi material, got pulled in by authorities and to prevent further arrests the local church authority (branch president?) excommunicated the young men (man?).

[CASteinman]

Can't remember the details of the story all that well myself save that the boys had used the copying machine at the church to produce anti-Nazi material, got pulled in by authorities and to prevent further arrests the local church authority (branch president?) excommunicated the young men (man?).

Yes... pretty much. Except that back then such things were reviewed by the FP. And they rejected the excommunication. Unfortunately, their rejection did not get communicated so after the War he was posthumously reinstated.

[CV75]

will not write the error in the concrete.

I think this has to do with two principles: 1) forgiveness and 2) there will be no mistakes in the long-run.

[SamIam]

I'd say that restricting the priesthood from those of African descent is a pretty big error.

Everything I've read so far leaves the leadership saying in essence, "we don't know why we did it."

I give you a pattern.

Earth in terrestrial state

Garden of Eden - paradisaical glory

Fall

Cain kills looses right to priesthood.

Flood- baptism by water

Ten tribes dispersed

Christ Born in Meridian of time

Restoration - ten tribes gathered

Curse of Cain removed - priesthood reinstated

Baptism of Fire

Paradisaical Glory reinstated

Earth to be raised to terrestrial state

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

If you are familiar with Chiasmus, this is a Chronological Chiasmus. While it is not perfect in the order the nature of the events works There is a pattern. Perhaps you can see it. Perhaps it will make sense to you. I suspect that you might choose to see there is a hand in these things that is above the hierarchy of the Church. We follow a plan instituted in heaven long before this generation got around to calling it a mistake. It is not a mistake...it is a plan. And it is working.

There are other patterns: 5 foolish virgins and 5 wise virgins all invited to the wedding - 5 with oil and 5 without. Perhaps it is time to check our lamps.

It is the completely mistaken perspective to ask does the church make mistakes? The correct perspective is have I made mistakes? Since the obvious answer for all is yes...since this is the only question that we can actually do something about - we need to ask this question far more often and keep working on it until we can answer no. I suspect that as soon as we stop making mistakes, by then when we look at the church we will realize it doesn't make mistakes either.

Edited July 1, 2012 by SamIam

[cwald]

Stake President, the German Stake Branch? President at the time was out of touch with SLC and had to make decisions on his own. It is a very interesting, troubling and uplifting story all at the same time. If you have a chance to study it, I would encourage you to do so. Not sure what is available online, we have a book about it on our shelves that is quite good, a few years old, can't remember the author or title though (and not getting out of bed at the moment to go check ).

Yes. Thank you. I didn't even know about it until last weekend when selek brought it up as the closest thing the church has done that might be considered a mistake.

[skippy740]

Yes, the LDS church has, can and will continue to make errors.

D&C 1:24-28

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these ^acommandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their ^blanguage, that they might come to ^cunderstanding.

25 And inasmuch as they ^aerred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought ^awisdom they might be ^binstructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be ^achastened, that they might ^brepent;

28 And inasmuch as they were ^ahumble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive ^bknowledge from time to time.

To not think that the church will never make a mistake... is naive.

[skippy740]

So not only will the church make mistakes... but the Lord will ALLOW them to happen!

[Palerider]

I don't know about that at all. I think that it was done for a reason: out of fear. You will need to listen to John Dehlin's podcast, Blacks and the Priesthood. Black Pete opened up a can of worms when he decided to do his own polygamy with white women without permission. I think that Brigham went into a panic as did Orson Hyde. Imagine the reaction of the gentiles if information about Black Pete and his wives would have reached the gentiles in Missouri. Not good. I do think that brigham and orson went overboard but I see it as damage control.

However, the church would have been a different apple if there wasn't the persecution following it around. If the lds church was free to worship freely without persecution, we would have seen a different church. And blacks would most likely had the priesthood even during Brigham's time. And we must remember they were welcome to become members.

O.K.,

I took your advise and listened to the podcast. I found it very interesting and informative. But I came away with an even stronger conviction that this restriction was definitely a mistake by the Church and have no doubt that the two people making the presention saw it that way as well.

If the Church were truly receiving the kind of revelation it claims, this error could have been rectified much earlier, There were definitely numerous opportunities.

I just feel sorry for those who have to continually find a way to prop up the church because the realities are too difficult to face if they find it isn't true.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Palerider

[Palerider]

I give you a pattern.

Earth in terrestrial state

Garden of Eden - paradisaical glory

Fall

Cain kills looses right to priesthood.

Flood- baptism by water

Ten tribes dispersed

Christ Born in Meridian of time

Restoration - ten tribes gathered

Curse of Cain removed - priesthood reinstated

Baptism of Fire

Paradisaical Glory reinstated

Earth to be raised to terrestrial state

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

If you are familiar with Chiasmus, this is a Chronological Chiasmus. While it is not perfect in the order the nature of the events works There is a pattern. Perhaps you can see it. Perhaps it will make sense to you. I suspect that you might choose to see there is a hand in these things that is above the hierarchy of the Church. We follow a plan instituted in heaven long before this generation got around to calling it a mistake. It is not a mistake...it is a plan. And it is working.

There are other patterns: 5 foolish virgins and 5 wise virgins all invited to the wedding - 5 with oil and 5 without. Perhaps it is time to check our lamps.

It is the completely mistaken perspective to ask does the church make mistakes? The correct perspective is have I made mistakes? Since the obvious answer for all is yes...since this is the only question that we can actually do something about - we need to ask this question far more often and keep working on it until we can answer no. I suspect that as soon as we stop making mistakes, by then when we look at the church we will realize it doesn't make mistakes either.

Oooohhh, I think you should listen to the podcast recommended by "WHY ME" in comment #30.

You'll feel ill for awhile but when you recover you'll be glad you listened to it.

[skippy740]

I cannot recall right now if "Black Pete" and William McCary are the same person or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McCary

[thesometimesaint]

I don't believe the Church makes mistakes in it established doctrines. But as men there is no such guarantee.

[zerinus]

Yes, the LDS church has, can and will continue to make errors.

D&C 1:24-28

To not think that the church will never make a mistake... is naive.

There is a difference between saying that the Church makes mistakes, and saying that a Church leader (or leaders) make mistakes. There is also a difference between making a mistake in doctrine, and making a mistake in policy, councel to Church members, or in the direction the Church should take. Errors in doctrine in early Church history unfortunately occurred quite often (which has now thankfully subsided), and there are historical reasons for it; but errors in policy, direction, and counsel have occurred rarely if at all.

Edited July 1, 2012 by zerinus

[Calm]

I cannot recall right now if "Black Pete" and William McCary are the same person or not.

http://en.wikipedia..../William_McCary

Same man:

William McCary, also known as "Black Pete," ordained in 1846

http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2005-Marvin-Perkins.pdf

[Nofear]

I'm of the mind that the Lord is pretty liberal in how he allows the administration of the Church -- so long as his servants are generally headed in the right direction. There may be times when the Lord is specific about the course of action but I suspect it to be more often that he guides the direction of action. That is, the Lord might say this or that needs to be worked on and then leave it to the Brethren to figure out how to go about it. More often than not, I doubt the Brethren take precisely the same actions an omniscient being would, but they are still in the right direction. God trusts us to help, we are here in part to learn after all.

Under such a scenario it is entirely plausible for the administration of the Church to get turned a bit off course (a "mistake"?). If and whenever this occurs the Lord corrects his servants and things are again set right. What we don't want to do is grant that it is up to us to second-guess the Brethren. If the ark wobbles a bit, God will take care of setting it steady again, not us.

[Senator]

What we don't want to do is grant that it is up to us to second-guess the Brethren. If the ark wobbles a bit, God will take care of setting it steady again, not us.

I understand what you are saying. But that does not preclude us from giving feedback. I mean, how will a wobble even be recognized as a wobble unless somebody on the road where the rubber meets speaks up and says, "uh, this isn't working". Should such be told, "don't steady the ark. The Bretheren will know by revelation whether something is not right or not working".

[skippy740]

Same man:

http://www.fairlds.o...vin-Perkins.pdf

Thank you. I couldn't even figure out where else to look... and it was getting late last night for me.