Can The Lds Church Make Mistakes?

[SamIam]

Oooohhh, I think you should listen to the podcast recommended by "WHY ME" in comment #30.

You'll feel ill for awhile but when you recover you'll be glad you listened to it.

I learned sometime ago that the Lord has never ordained apostates to teach the truth. They can only teach apostate truth which I suspect (as I cannot take the time to listen to another podcast - just pieces of life lost) is the nature of the podcast you reference.

I'm just trying to help you realize that you are looking way too much in the back alleys, garbage cans, and sewage pits of information concerning the church and it appears to be persuading you that whatever you can see through those grime colored glasses must be correct. Hence, why you made no effort to ponder upon the pattern I suggested, nor upon the scripture, nor upon the underlying theme that too much time casting stones at everyone else will only leave you with much unfinished personal business in the day that your personal testimony stands as the only thing you have to be measured against.

If you seek dirt on the church, it looks like you have those venues figured out pretty well on your own. However, if you seek Jesus Christ the church is the best place to accommodate you in those efforts.

[cwald]

I learned sometime ago that the Lord has never ordained apostates to teach the truth. They can only teach apostate truth...

I'm just trying to help you realize that you are looking way too much in the back alleys, garbage cans, and sewage pits of information concerning the church and it appears to be persuading you that whatever you can see through those grime colored glasses must be correct. Hence, why you made no effort to ponder upon the pattern I suggested, nor upon the scripture, nor upon the underlying theme that too much time casting stones at everyone else will only leave you with much unfinished personal business in the day...

If you seek dirt on the church, it looks like you have those venues figured out pretty well on your own...

And what was your point with this post?

[Palerider]

I cannot recall right now if "Black Pete" and William McCary are the same person or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McCary

I don't think so.

EDIT! I'm sure Calmoriah is correct in this instance. Same man.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Palerider

[Palerider]

I learned sometime ago that the Lord has never ordained apostates to teach the truth. They can only teach apostate truth which I suspect (as I cannot take the time to listen to another podcast - just pieces of life lost) is the nature of the podcast you reference.

I'm just trying to help you realize that you are looking way too much in the back alleys, garbage cans, and sewage pits of information concerning the church and it appears to be persuading you that whatever you can see through those grime colored glasses must be correct. Hence, why you made no effort to ponder upon the pattern I suggested, nor upon the scripture, nor upon the underlying theme that too much time casting stones at everyone else will only leave you with much unfinished personal business in the day that your personal testimony stands as the only thing you have to be measured against.

If you seek dirt on the church, it looks like you have those venues figured out pretty well on your own. However, if you seek Jesus Christ the church is the best place to accommodate you in those efforts.

I think this speaks volumes and I wouldn't dream of trying to convince you otherwise. Good luck!

[Bikeemikey]

I learned sometime ago that the Lord has never ordained apostates to teach the truth. They can only teach apostate truth which I suspect (as I cannot take the time to listen to another podcast - just pieces of life lost) is the nature of the podcast you reference.

I'm just trying to help you realize that you are looking way too much in the back alleys, garbage cans, and sewage pits of information concerning the church and it appears to be persuading you that whatever you can see through those grime colored glasses must be correct. Hence, why you made no effort to ponder upon the pattern I suggested, nor upon the scripture, nor upon the underlying theme that too much time casting stones at everyone else will only leave you with much unfinished personal business in the day that your personal testimony stands as the only thing you have to be measured against.

If you seek dirt on the church, it looks like you have those venues figured out pretty well on your own. However, if you seek Jesus Christ the church is the best place to accommodate you in those efforts.

Do you realize that your reply is the quintessential example of the OP's claim regarding Mormon's constitutional inability to recognize error/mistake within the church. So powerful is our capacity to avoid seeing error that we even have sophisticated tools to justify avoiding looking at the data sets that suggest error.

Do I agree 100% with the thoughts expressed in the podcast referenced? No. Did I listen and consider the argument being made yes. That is all that is asked of us by God, by our Church, by our Faith, by our founding prophet... We ought to be informed.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Bikeemikey

[Deborah]

Did I listen and consider the argument being made yes. That is all that is asked of us by God, by our Church, by our Faith, by our founding prophet... We ought to be informed.

But being informed doesn't mean we have to search for information in the garbage pits.

[cwald]

But being informed doesn't mean we have to search for information in the garbage pits.

Garbage pit? Some might say MDDB is a garbage pit? Who are you to judge JD mormonstories as a garbage pit? As far as I know, the church leaders in SLC haven't made a claim like that.

[cwald]

BTW....I'm not suggesting MDDB is a garbage pit

[Deborah]

Why is it someone will take a statement addressed to a specific person about a specific point and then assume it applies to every situation.

[Deborah]

People in the church grumble and complain all the time about certain things. I've certainly grumbled and complained about having church start at 1:30. However, when the grumbling and complaining starts to affect your testimony maybe it's time to step back and evaluate how important this issue is to you. If it is a point of policy or doctrine maybe its time to get on one's knees and get out the scriptures and focus on the scriptures and not every blog one reads on the internet. If you can't get a unity with the church leaders at least you might find peace in living with the issue until it can be resolved. And always pray for the Prophet and our local leaders. I'm sure they would all welcome our prayers, and if a leader is on the "wrong" track our prayers will certainly help him get back to the right track, but be sure the right track is what is right with the Lord and not with our own egos.

[cwald]

Oh, I apologize. I thought your comment was about a mormomstories podcast that was referenced.

My apologies.

[Deborah]

Bikey was replying to a post by someone else who was making a general statement about looking in the right places to find info, and I would add rather than letting the spirit guide. I don't know about Mormonstories itself, as I've heard both bad and good but like anything else you can find good and bad depending on what you are looking for.

[Heide]

I am only briefly reviewed the comments to this thread so I apologize in advance if I cover tilled ground.

The answer to this questions depends entirely on how "church" is defined. One, church can be the restoration of the gospel through the priesthood with the Lord as its head. Two, church can be the legal entity that is governed by the president and the apostles through the headquarters. Three, church can also be the members. And fourth, church can be each of these three aspects together, which I would call the whole church for lack of better definition that comes immediately to mind.

I mentioned in another post that whether the "church" makes mistakes depends on which definition we use.

If we use definition number one, then the church cannot make mistakes as for it to do so would mean that the Lord is imperfect. If we use the fourth definition, then within this realm is definition number one and I would state that the function of definition number one within the whole church is to reveal doctrine and to carry out implementation of doctrine through direct revelation. I do not believe that doctrine can be erroneous. It can change but change usually is a factor of opposition through agents against the church (legality of polygamy) or the members lack of faith in carrying out the doctrine (see below).

As to definition number two and its role within the whole church, I believe there can be errs or mistakes. The function of definition number two within the whole church is the creation and carrying out of policies. My belief is that the Lord is not directly involved in each and every decision make by the brethren. They may pray for inspiration and they may be guided as to the pros and cons of each potential course of action; however, the Lord delegates and allows the brethren to make the best decision they believe is correct. As men are fallible, it should not be a surprise that these brethren make mistakes of judgment. Men are also prone to ignore instructions of the Lord or even act directly against the Lord, even as prophets. Joseph Smith losing the Book of Lehi is an example, see, D&C 3:4-9. (I acknowledge that this occurred before the legal entity of the church was formed but still an accurate example nonetheless). The ability or inability to admit or assign mistakes is another matter entirely, but if this were assertion is true--and I do not believe the church itself refuses to admit mistakes--it is only true as to the members if they lack a fundamental understanding as to the role of the Lord as to matters or policy, which is different than revelation of doctrine.

For definition number three, the role of this group within the whole church is to seek eternal salvation through the three missions of the church. Doctrine may be revealed to assist the members in attaining salvation but they may disregard through lack of faith the doctrine. An example of this is the doctrine of the law of consecration. The doctrine itself was not a mistake but the inability of members to live the doctrine, and thus the policies requiring the saints to live this law were changed. In this example, the "church" made a mistake but the mistake is placed upon the shoulders of the members and not the Lord or necessarily the brethren.

If we talk about the whole church, then a mistake by the brethren is carrying out policy or outright failure to adhere to the commandments of the Lord or the failure of the members to live doctrine, then we may rightly say that the whole church made a mistake. However, I would not assign that mistake to the Lord.

[Bikeemikey]

But being informed doesn't mean we have to search for information in the garbage pits.

I agree with you on this matter.

We just need to be careful about how quickly we rush to judgement. Deciding that something is a garbage pit because we don't like the content, rather than because the content is biased and badly researched, is an important distinction to make.

[SamIam]

And what was your point with this post?

Do me a favor. Read my post #76 again. Then convey back to me what you think my "point" is. You might also review the first one I posted #63 and that will add to the points I am making. If it is not as clear as I think it is, then your response will alert me to that and I will explain at the juncture points that illustrate where I believe I am being misunderstood.

[SamIam]

I agree with you on this matter.

We just need to be careful about how quickly we rush to judgement. Deciding that something is a garbage pit because we don't like the content, rather than because the content is biased and badly researched, is an important distinction to make.

You have tagged it. You have hit the point on the head that I have been trying to make the entire time. I am convinced that we define over and over again where our loyalties lie by how we render judgment and who we decide to defend.

It is clear, or at least should be that I am unequivocal in my defense of the church. Not because it is the church I defend, but because I believe with my whole heart that Christ established this organization. Should I take it upon myself to critique his leaders I have taken it upon myself to critique Christ. It is if I am saying HE is a poor manager, if HE can't find better people to do the work then his organization is flawed.

I refuse to take so bold a step and so ignorant a path as to state anything other than this one thing. This church functions precisely according to the perfect plan of a perfect master.

One of those conditions and objectives of the church is to sift, to separate the wheat from the tares, the grain from the chaff, or in other words the valiant from the not valiant. I have asked this question several times in the past couple of weeks. What do you think this separating process is going to look like?

A few of the valiant types have responded that that made good sense to them, they appreciated the viewpoint and it clarified a few things. However, I have yet to have any response from the equivocators that wrestle with sympathy over character, or those that wrestle with truth at a lower level over truth that embraces a greater cause. Perhaps you know of someone on the equivocating side of things that might actually be brave enough to attach this question head on.

In the last days what types of conditions will cause otherwise reasonable and intelligent men and women in the gospel to line up against each other on one side of a discussion of defending Christ and the other side of the discussion which is to criticize Christ?

For, while I perceive that on the surface it will appear that there are a multitude of different causes if you distill every single one of them down to simplest terms, they all end with but one question - Who is on the Lords side? The response option that Moses gave for those that would affirm that it was them that was on the Lords side was "let him come unto me."

Should one really and truly wish to show that they are on the Lords side, coming unto him via by sustaining HIS choices in who He calls to lead His church might be a better place to be than fault finding, and making an offender for a word.

Edited July 1, 2012 by SamIam

[cwald]

Do me a favor. Read my post #76 again. Then convey back to me what you think my "point" is. You might also review the first one I posted #63 and that will add to the points I am making. If it is not as clear as I think it is, then your response will alert me to that and I will explain at the juncture points that illustrate where I believe I am being misunderstood.

No. Why don't you just tell me what your point was.

[cwald]

Is it possible that when someone claims the church made a mistake, they are only criticizing THE CHURCH....and not criticizing Christ at all?

I don't understand why Christ and the church are considered to be the same thing in this conversation.

[Calm]

It is if I am saying HE is a poor manager, if HE can't find better people to do the work then his organization is flawed.

I think those who see things this way (though generally they make the assumption that it is not Christ in charge, but someone else) make the mistake of not understanding what the actual purpose of the organization is...which is not to be the best organized and managed church in existence, but the best church for carrying out Christ's mission to bring exaltation to mankind.

I don't believe the Church has made mistakes when it comes to that mission even if it (or rather specific leaders) has stumbled from time to time along the way.

And imo Christ allows that stumbling because it means in the end more people turning to Him to help them get back up and get on with their work rather than relying fully on other men, because no matter how good those men might be, they are only there to help guide us to Christ, not to take his place.

Edited July 1, 2012 by calmoriah

[SamIam]

Is it possible that when someone claims the church made a mistake, they are only criticizing THE CHURCH....and not criticizing Christ at all?

I don't understand why Christ and the church are considered to be the same thing in this conversation.

CWALD,

post mess up hold on ... will edit...

Edited July 1, 2012 by SamIam

[SamIam]

No. Why don't you just tell me what your point was.

CWALD,

I genuinely try to be gentle with you. I am not inclined to challenge those who are clearly hurting or suffering from situations that I cannot know. I hope your presence here is a sincere effort to answer the burdensome questions that are taxing you to such an obvious degree.

That said, you have to at least be willing to meet me 10% of the way. Were it possible I would carry you on my back and take 100% of the burden but it is not ordained in such a way. You have to be somewhat willing to try. If you cannot, then none can assist except for the dissenters who feed your sense of disaffection.

I am not your enemy, I am not trying to offend nor take offense. I will respond to your questions but I must first understand them. Perhaps you might reread my post again and give it a shot.

[ERayR]

Garbage pit? Some might say MDDB is a garbage pit? Who are you to judge JD mormonstories as a garbage pit? As far as I know, the church leaders in SLC haven't made a claim like that.

Some might say that.

I am a priesthood holder with a mind of my own and an open chanel of communication to the Lord.

[Duncan]

Does the Church makes mistakes? yes! Whoever bought these hideous chairs and couches and for whatever reason we still have them...it's a mistake!!!!! A fashion mistake!!!!

http://www.lds.org/study/prophets-speak-today/unto-all-the-world/let-the-holy-spirit-guide?lang=eng

scroll down until you see what Pres. Packer and Elder Hallstrom are sitting on

Edited July 1, 2012 by Duncan

[Palerider]

I think those who see things this way (though generally they make the assumption that it is not Christ in charge, but someone else) make the mistake of not understanding what the actual purpose of the organization is...which is not to be the best organized and managed church in existence, but the best church for carrying out Christ's mission to bring exaltation to mankind.

I don't believe the Church has made mistakes when it comes to that mission even if it (or rather specific leaders) has stumbled from time to time along the way.

And imo Christ allows that stumbling because it means in the end more people turning to Him to help them get back up and get on with their work rather than relying fully on other men, because no matter how good those men might be, they are only there to help guide us to Christ, not to take his place.

O.K.

If your mission is to bring exaltation to all mankind, and you restrict that exaltation from a certain race for over a hundred years, claiming that it is a commandment of the Lord and based in doctrine....and then you wake up and say "Oh, we're going to permit the full ordinances of exaltation to go to that race now and we don't really know why we ever prohibited them in the first place.", doesn't one have to ask who is really in charge here and wouldn't you consider that a rather poor performance of your specified mission?

I'd say that is a whopping mistake.....

[Calm]

you restrict that exaltation from a certain race for over a hundred years

You are mistaken. Exaltation occurs after death. Nothing in mortality can restrict one's exaltation besides one's own choices.

At most, the claim can be made that there was a restriction in place that limited for a time progression towards exaltation through certain ordinances, but that same restriction has existed for the majority of people born on earth just by the default of not being alive or located where authority was available so ultimately, unless you are suggesting that God restricted exaltation for thousands of years, no one has lost any of their ability to seek out exaltation through coming closer to Christ and at sometime along the path, whether closer to the beginning or the end, in their existence receiving the ordinances.

Edited July 1, 2012 by calmoriah