John Dehlin...Giant Killer

[Calm]

Ah calimoriah, you're such a wet blanket. Now he's gonna have support his claim. Darn it.

Yep, I do like to know where these ideas come from.

It's good to have you posting again too.

[cwald]

Wow. What do you want?

You really don't think the change in church policies have anything to do with the concerns and needs of the people in the trenches, and only came from the office in SLC?

How would they even know there was a problem with the old church schedule and there was a need to go to the three hour block, if they weren't getting feedback from the members and the local leaders that a change was needed in the first place?

You think the change in the blacks and priesthood just popped into SWK brain one day...and had nothing to do with the civil rights movement, and Stanford rebellion, and from the thousands of members writing letters pleading for a change.

btw - I don't know what CFR means...but I assume it is not good?

[selek1]

btw - I don't know what CFR means...but I assume it is not good?

It means "Call For References"- and essentially boils down to "put up or shut up".

According to board rules and etiquette, if you cannot provide factual references in support of the claim, you are obliged to withdraw it.

[cwald]

Well, I can't site a reference that says specifically that SWK decided to give blacks the priesthood because of what happened with acceptance and changed values after the civil rights movement. But I do have a brain and can use some deductive logic...it's not that hard of concept to figure out.

Edited June 24, 2012 by cwald

[cwald]

So why does the church change its policies...if not because of a need to meet the need of the membership because of the feedback from the bottom up?

And, lest we forget, John Dehlin is a member of the LDS church. He is doing what he feels is best to help a certain group of membership, from the inside. Not the outside.

[selek1]

Well, I can't site a reference that says specifically that SWK decided to give blacks the priesthood because of what happened with acceptance and changed values after the civil rights movement. But I do have a brain and can use some deductive logic...it's not that hard of concept to figure out.

Of course, there are a number of facts that make such a deduction questionable.

First and foremost, the Revelation regarding the Priesthood Ban came more than a decade after the Civil Rights movement, in an era when the "furor" over such things was dying down.

Second, President Kimball's own journals and the minutes of the meetings of the Quorum of the Twelve indicate that the Brethren had been pursuing that result since roughly the end of World War II.

While I'm inclined to agree that the Revelation did not occur in a vacuum, to state that it occured because Spencer W. Kimball was swayed by the masses agitating for a change ignores both the facts on the ground and his explicit statements on the matter.

[selek1]

So why does the church change its policies...if not because of a need to meet the need of the membership because of the feedback from the bottom up?

You are conflating two things here: change to accomodate the needs of the members and change driven by outsider agitation.

The first exists, and is done in accordance with the will of Heavenly Father and by his permission.

The second is akin to a rooster congratulating himself because his crowing causes the sun to rise.

President Kimball, his predecessors, and the members of the Church all longed and prayed for the day when the Ban would be lifted (as had been promised by Brigham Youing). The specific timing of the change was (and remains) the Lord's decision.

And, lest we forget, John Dehlin is a member of the LDS church. He is doing what he feels is best to help a certain group of membership, from the inside. Not the outside.

Let us not forget that John Dehlin is a self-confessed apostate who has admitted that he no longer believes the Church is true.

He uses his membership as a convenient gateway into the minds of his victims and as a figleaf to lend himself an undeserved authority, nothing more.

Edited June 24, 2012 by selek1

[Evangeline]

And, lest we forget, John Dehlin is a member of the LDS church. He is doing what he feels is best to help a certain group of membership, from the inside. Not the outside.

I guess if we really were Morgbots, we would be expected to believe that all members of the LDS church are completely sincere.

Questioning is never allowed of course, especially when said members claim to have general authority friends. Why, they must be infallible.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Evangeline

[Evangeline]

Especially if they make claims to being supporters of total openness and full disclosure being the best way to engage history and other human endeavours.

Why do I get the feeling that Greg Smith won't be invited to join a MormonStories podcast anytime soon?

[Libs]

Actually......that would be an interesting interview. I wonder if Greg would do it? Or if John would ask?

[Robert F. Smith]

Fair enough...so what parts are to be disbelieved?

Peggy (whom I have always liked a great deal since her days running Sunstone) claimed that Dan "was part of the original team that established the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS) in 1979." This is false. Dan did not become part of FARMS until years later. There are a number of other false assumptions made by her in that story, and it would help if you checked with other accounts of the same events.

Reminds me of the history of BYU written by Bergera & Priddis in which they also made a number of false statements about FARMS -- it would have been quite easy for them to have checked with me, since they had been interviewing me for other aspects of their book. Journalists have a tough time getting things right. So be very cautious about believing what you read, Craig.

[Calm]

Why do I get the feeling that Greg Smith won't be invited to join a MormonStories podcast anytime soon?

You may enjoy this FAIR blog: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58136-changes-at-the-maxwell-institute-and-“controlling-the-narrative”/page__pid__1209136212#entry1209136212

Are you familiar with the story of the Brave Little Tailor? Another Jack the Giant Killer version.....

He sewed a belt that publicized "killed seven with one blow" which led to him being called up by the king to handle the latest giant infestation. Problem was he was a bit of a drama queen having just slain seven hungry flies who had the misfortune of all landing for lunch on his jam sandwich at the same time. Kind of over did it on the self-publicity, don't you think?

However, it being a fairy tale this supposed Giant Killer was able to use his wits to trick and scare off the stupid, slow, vicious and ugly giants as well as all those who doubted his fighting abilities without having to really face anyone and fight so all was well and happy in the kingdom again......at least for him, his wife the princess isn't too happy about being married to a tailor and the people he was supposed to work with were so intimidated by his self-promotion they feared for their own lives but who cares about their feelings as long as Jack gets what he wants, right?

I don't know any Jack the Giant Killer stories where the hero doesn't win except through deception and tricks and appearing to be something that he's not or stealing something that doesn't belong to him. Not exactly the type of hero I would want to boast about myself.

Edited June 24, 2012 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

Journalists have a tough time getting things right.

[Ahem. ]

Some journalists have a tough time getting things right.

[Storm Rider]

I would be curious to know the name of the seventy that Dehlin contacted and threatened to take it higher if censorship did not occur. I love it when patriots of openness are so committed to openness for others when they themselves prefer a high degree of privacy about themselves. I know that I should not be concerned about who Dehlin thinks to contact first, but I am just trying to connect some dots in my head.

Cal, you have the gist of it. Giant-killer? In one's own mind we can be anything, but we always have to look in the mirror and know what a real worm we really are. Worm being a term the early church fathers used relatively often for the state of man. I am trying to be fair to good brother Dehlin. To me it is almost ridiculous to mention Dehlin in the same conversation as Dan's separation from MI.

[why me]

Actually......that would be an interesting interview. I wonder if Greg would do it? Or if John would ask?

Not before the article is published. What would they talk about before the article was published? After the article the article is published there could be an interview or better yet, a debate.

[why me]

I am trying to be fair to good brother Dehlin. To me it is almost ridiculous to mention Dehlin in the same conversation as Dan's separation from MI.

Difficult to be fair. Let me put it this way. I believe that John wants more openness in the church. And I believe that he wishes to have whatever he considers to be hidden, brought out into the open. This is actually not bad. However, he wants to bury the article about him and his mormonstories podcast. I see a conflict here. He wants more openness and yet, he has the article about him and his podcasts squashed.

Do you see a contradiction here?

Edited June 24, 2012 by why me

[Monster]

Perhaps it was realized that Petersons approach was doing more harm than good. The bosses just wanted a new direction just like the article said. The Dehlin thing may have just been a side note.

[Somebodyz]

Perhaps it was realized that Petersons approach was doing more harm than good. The bosses just wanted a new direction just like the article said. The Dehlin thing may have just been a side note.

....perhaps it didn't believe Petersons approach was doing more harm than good. Perhaps the bosses wanted a change of direction more in line with their own interests.

[Deborah]

Perhaps, perhaps. Unless one knows all the facts it is useless to speculate and only tends to spread rumors which expand and feed on themselves until they become fact in the minds of those who revel in any controversy against the church. It sounds like even Br. Peterson doesn't know all the facts and I would take anything Dehlin says with a grain of salt.

It disturbs me when news organizations start speculating and judging before the investigations are complete and we've seen how they can twist things and cause tremendous pain for those involved. It is even more disturbing when church members or those who claim to be members do the same.

[Bob Oliverio]

I heard from wife's side of family in Utah that this Dehlin guy may be a concern for Church in this election year because he has ties to Romney's business past or past associates or some business influence which apparently gives him far more influence than those at this Maxwell Institute.  

Anyone know if any of this is even close to being accurate? Frankly, I've never heard of any of the players in this drama but maybe it's a big deal in Utah.  It sure hasn't been a newsworthy discussion point in our ward here.

[Deborah]

What I know of Dehlin is that he is very influential among a large apostate group here in Utah, and that he is looked to for their rationale to be disaffected with the church. He has many disciples who have established their own blogs and websites and claim the same agenda but who openly oppose church authority and consider the church in apostasy rather than themselves. And I have very personal reasons for disliking him and his ilk because I have family members who have followed his and his acolytes' agendas.

I don't think it is ever of benefit to give questioning members reasons to cling to their doubts. The plan of the lord is to love those who question but encourage them to exercise faith and hold on to that which you they know until they can understand that which they question. It is an issue of faith not an issue of rationalization.

[Storm Rider]

I heard from wife's side of family in Utah that this Dehlin guy may be a concern for Church in this election year because he has ties to Romney's business past or past associates or some business influence which apparently gives him far more influence than those at this Maxwell Institute.

Anyone know if any of this is even close to being accurate? Frankly, I've never heard of any of the players in this drama but maybe it's a big deal in Utah. It sure hasn't been a newsworthy discussion point in our ward here.

I have got to start listening to different people; you come up with far more interesting junk than I could in a thousand years. Is this stuff printed in the National Enquirer or is there a Mormon blog somewhere that talks about this and a host of other devious plans. I still laugh about hearing about BY's wife that jumped from the spire of the Salt Lake temple, landing in the Great Salt Lake and swam to safety in order to escape the evils of polygamy. However, the stuff you come up with is just as laughable.

I can see it now. Solemn assemble of the Twelve in the Temple, dark walnut walls, and they all wear black (can't you just see this being imagined by those outside the Church). They begin in soft murmurs about the absolute need to take over the United States once the Big R gains the White House. They excruciatingly plan everything so that R can win. Alas, they are foiled at the last moment by the twit, I mean, good brother Dehlin. Little John calls them up and in the all-knowing voice that only the truly enlightened, "If you don't get rid of that editor at MI, I will botch the whole thing up!" The moaning, gnashing of teeth; they are so close and now must bend to the will of this pipsqueak, I mean towering source of influence. They fold, admit they must fire DP, because it is control the USA at all cost now. It is so close; almost within the grasp of their gnarled fingers.

Just plain bizarre.

[Bill Hamblin]

I have got to start listening to different people; you come up with far more interesting junk than I could in a thousand years. Is this stuff printed in the National Enquirer or is there a Mormon blog somewhere that talks about this and a host of other devious plans. I still laugh about hearing about BY's wife that jumped from the spire of the Salt Lake temple, landing in the Great Salt Lake and swam to safety in order to escape the evils of polygamy. However, the stuff you come up with is just as laughable.

I can see it now. Solemn assemble of the Twelve in the Temple, dark walnut walls, and they all wear black (can't you just see this being imagined by those outside the Church). They begin in soft murmurs about the absolute need to take over the United States once the Big R gains the White House. They excruciatingly plan everything so that R can win. Alas, they are foiled at the last moment by the twit, I mean, good brother Dehlin. Little John calls them up and in the all-knowing voice that only the truly enlightened, "If you don't get rid of that editor at MI, I will botch the whole thing up!" The moaning, gnashing of teeth; they are so close and now must bend to the will of this pipsqueak, I mean towering source of influence. They fold, admit they must fire DP, because it is control the USA at all cost now. It is so close; almost within the grasp of their gnarled fingers.

Just plain bizarre.

And yet that's what the apostates really think. Bizarre indeed.

[Aliwe]

I can see it now. Solemn assemble of the Twelve in the Temple, dark walnut walls, and they all wear black (can't you just see this being imagined by those outside the Church). They begin in soft murmurs about the absolute need to take over the United States once the Big R gains the White House. They excruciatingly plan everything so that R can win. Alas, they are foiled at the last moment by the twit, I mean, good brother Dehlin. Little John calls them up and in the all-knowing voice that only the truly enlightened, "If you don't get rid of that editor at MI, I will botch the whole thing up!" The moaning, gnashing of teeth; they are so close and now must bend to the will of this pipsqueak, I mean towering source of influence. They fold, admit they must fire DP, because it is control the USA at all cost now. It is so close; almost within the grasp of their gnarled fingers.

My anti- site says mahogany, not walnut. But, yeah. No, seriously, did you notice that the fears going around during the primary (stoked no doubt by Newty and Rantorum) that Romney would divide the GOP and ensure O wins re-election didn't pan out? The GOP is coming together behind our candidate nicely, thank you. So there's no need for a Grand Conspiracy in the smoke-filled rooms of SLC. The Vatican is shooting itself in the foot lately too, going after Girl Scouts and Nuns for theological compliance.

[wenglund]

Perhaps it was realized that Petersons approach was doing more harm than good.

I am unaware of any respectable/balanced data set that would support that conclusion, or any person who would respectably draw that specious conclusion.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-