John The Revelator And The Three Nephites

[inquiringmind]

Have John the Revelator and the three Nephites been on earth all this time?

And were they left here for some purpose?

Do they have some job to perform?

[Freedom]

This is a good question that, as far as I am aware, has no answer. I do not understand why we would require them to wonder around. What can they do that a ministering angel or priesthood holder cannot do. I don't think their role has been relieved suggesting that there is a lot about earthly ministries that we do not understand or yet know.

[Robert F. Smith]

Have John the Revelator and the three Nephites been on earth all this time?

And were they left here for some purpose?

Do they have some job to perform?

These and similar legends have generated a great deal of oral and written literature, and I can recall stories about the Three Nephites being told in Sacrament meetings as recently as the 1950s (haven't heard one since).

If you want a good read on the subject, see Joseph Gaer, The Legend of the Wandering Jew (1961). He even deals with the Three Nephites, in addition to legends of the Grail, Merlin the Magician, King Arthur, Rip Van Winkle, Sleeping Beauty, Charlemagne, St. John the Divine, Honi the Circle Maker, and the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus (in that cave described so well by Hugh Nibley). The only thing Gaer leaves out are the Thirty-Six Righteous (pious Jews for whose sake alone God does not destroy the world), and the Hidden Imams of Islam.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Robert F. Smith

[CV75]

Have John the Revelator and the three Nephites been on earth all this time?

And were they left here for some purpose?

Do they have some job to perform?

My understanding is that they have developed such an advanced spiritual appreciation and talent in using their physical body to glorify God that their desire was granted to continue to do so. They developed in this life the talent to see the spiritual application of D&C 84:33.

Whether they have been on earth all this time or can travel in and out of / to and from other worlds would have to be related to the mission they have for this world.

Yes, their desire to tarry was to bring the souls of men unto Christ, while the world shall stand (again, an advanced spiritual appreciation and talent in relation to the power of the physical world in relation to eternal matters).

So their purpose is to bring the souls of men unto Christ while the world shall stand (or remain in its mortal condition), and not in or from the spirit world. Preaching and administering the Gospel is advantaged by activity in both types of worlds in different ways.

Edited May 20, 2012 by CV75

[CV75]

P.S. I just remembered that the City of Enoch has many such translated people, and they certainly have an active role in the Second Coming.

[Doug the Hutt]

Have John the Revelator and the three Nephites been on earth all this time?

And were they left here for some purpose?

Do they have some job to perform?

There are several ways to look at the Three Nephites and John the Beloved:

1. They never existed but served as characters in an allegory about good/evil/right/wrong/obedience/rebellion. Despite that we can still learn to emulate their humility and integrity among other qualities.

2. They tarried for a time but were taken away from the Earth sometime after their mention in the scriptures and before the Restoration. Stories as to their encounters with Mormons were FPRs only.

3. They're still tarrying. Stories of their encounters verify their reality and by extension the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's calling as prophet. They may actually be reading this thread but they're too modest to take a bow and it would detract from their 1500 year job of steering people towards Christ's True Church.

4. Other.

[volgadon]

3. They're still tarrying. Stories of their encounters verify their reality and by extension the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's calling as prophet. They may actually be reading this thread but they're too modest to take a bow and it would detract from their 1500 year job of steering people towards Christ's True Church.

Your heavy-handed sarcasm put them off of posting.

Edited May 20, 2012 by volgadon

[zerinus]

Have John the Revelator and the three Nephites been on earth all this time?

Accordeing to the Book of Mormon, yes:

3 Nephi 28:

7 . . . but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, . . .

27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.

And were they left here for some purpose?

Yes:

9 . . . for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

Do they have some job to perform?

Yes:

29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.

30 And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.

31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the great and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;

32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.

This is a good question that, as far as I am aware, has no answer. . . .

According to the Book of Mormon, it does. See above.

These and similar legends have generated a great deal of oral and written literature, . . .

I don’t know about you, but I don’t consider the Book of Mormon to be a legend.

P.S. I just remembered that the City of Enoch has many such translated people, and they certainly have an active role in the Second Coming.

I know that in LDS theology the status of the Three Nephites is usually equated with that of “translated” beings, such as the people of Enoch; but I find no scriptural basis for this belief. To be “translated” means to be literally transported from this sphere of existence to another, as Enoch and his people were. They were no longer on this earth, but taken to heaven. The three Nephite disciples and John (and possibly Alma and others), were not transported from this world to another, but promised that they would “tarry,” meaning that they would hang around and stay here, and “behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men . . .” (3 Nephi 28:7). They would perform their work and missions here on earth. That is not the same thing as being “translated”.

There are several ways to look at the Three Nephites and John the Beloved:

* * *

Wrong! There is only one way!

Edited May 21, 2012 by zerinus

[zerinus]

Your heavy-handed sarcasm put them off of posting.

No it didn't!

[CV75]

I know that in LDS theology the status of the Three Nephites is usually equated with that of “translated” beings, such as the people of Enoch; but I find no scriptural basis for this belief. To be “translated” means to be literally transported from this sphere of existence to another, as Enoch and his people were. They were no longer on this earth, but taken to heaven. The three Nephite disciples and John (and possibly Alma and others), were not transported from this world to another, but promised that they would “tarry,” meaning that they would hang around and stay here, and “behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men . . .” (3 Nephi 28:7). They would perform their work and missions here on earth. That is not the same thing as being “translated”.

According to 3 Nephi 28, the change (“like unto a transfiguration”) that was “wrought upon their bodies” happened as they “were caught up into heaven” (they were not on the earth at least once) and allowed them to “again minister upon the face of the earth (meaning they had been off of it),” and “they are as the angles of God (from time to time dwell in His presence).” Translation means not seeing or tasting death (Hebrews 11:5, Ether 12;17, D&C 110: 13), and in this way the three Nephites, John, Elijah and others are translated beings. I just found this link that ties them and others all together under the umbrella of “translated beings” http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/t/36.

[zerinus]

According to 3 Nephi 28, the change (“like unto a transfiguration”) that was “wrought upon their bodies” happened as they “were caught up into heaven” (they were not on the earth at least once) and allowed them to “again minister upon the face of the earth (meaning they had been off of it),” and “they are as the angles of God (from time to time dwell in His presence).” Translation means not seeing or tasting death (Hebrews 11:5, Ether 12;17, D&C 110: 13), and in this way the three Nephites, John, Elijah and others are translated beings. I just found this link that ties them and others all together under the umbrella of “translated beings” http://classic.scrip....org/en/gs/t/36.

I agree that a change was made in their bodies so that they could not "taste of death" (3 Nephi 28:37, 38). That is not the issue. The question is whether "translation" is the correct word to describe their experience. The scripture does not say that they were translated. And "transfigured" is not the same as translated. Moses for example describes his experience with God as a "transfiguration" (Moses 1:11, 14). Jesus was said to have been "transfigured" in the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:2). This does not mean that they were "translated".

[The Nehor]

There are several ways to look at the Three Nephites and John the Beloved:

1. They never existed but served as characters in an allegory about good/evil/right/wrong/obedience/rebellion. Despite that we can still learn to emulate their humility and integrity among other qualities.

2. They tarried for a time but were taken away from the Earth sometime after their mention in the scriptures and before the Restoration. Stories as to their encounters with Mormons were FPRs only.

3. They're still tarrying. Stories of their encounters verify their reality and by extension the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's calling as prophet. They may actually be reading this thread but they're too modest to take a bow and it would detract from their 1500 year job of steering people towards Christ's True Church.

4. Other.

1 would discredit the gospel. 2 seems unlikely as both were told they would stay until the Second Coming. 3 is silly as I really doubt they would reveal themselves to people who would trumpet their existence.

Gonna go with 4. They are here but keep their existence secret except possibly from a few who can be trusted to keep their mouths shut.

[cinepro]

Your heavy-handed sarcasm put them off of posting.

How would we know if they were posting? If someone claimed to be one, how would you tell?

[The Nehor]

How would we know if they were posting? If someone claimed to be one, how would you tell?

I presume you would ask to shake their hand and see if it was insubstantial.

[CV75]

I agree that a change was made in their bodies so that they could not "taste of death" (3 Nephi 28:37, 38). That is not the issue. The question is whether "translation" is the correct word to describe their experience. The scripture does not say that they were translated.

Now that depends on how literal you expect the scriptures themselves must be to satisfy your need for clarity. The lds link I provided shows a number of scriptures under the heading of "translated beings" that, taken as an integrated whole support "translation" as is the correct word to decribe the three Nephites' experience. Would you rather come up with another non-scriptural term that I would accept? And would not such a word constitute a "philosophy of men"?

[volgadon]

How would we know if they were posting? If someone claimed to be one, how would you tell?

As punctured tires don't replace themselves, we got to talking. WHat else are you going to do in the desert?

[zerinus]

Now that depends on how literal you expect the scriptures themselves must be to satisfy your need for clarity. The lds link I provided shows a number of scriptures under the heading of "translated beings" that, taken as an integrated whole support "translation" as is the correct word to decribe the three Nephites' experience. Would you rather come up with another non-scriptural term that I would accept? And would not such a word constitute a "philosophy of men"?

I do have a scriptural word for it. The scriptures say that they were allowed to "tarry" until the Lord comes. "Tarry" means to wait, linger, stay longer than expected. I would think that if that was equivalent to "translation," it would have said so. To be translated literally means to be "taken to heaven," as in the case of Elijah:

D&C 110:

13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said;

The people of Melchizedek likewise sought the same gift, and obtained it:

Genesis 14:

34 And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world;

In every instance, the idea is expressed in terms of "separation" or removal from this world to another; whereas in the case of the Three Nephites, it was the opposite. Their days were prolonged so that they could "tarry" here. Surely, it is obvious that two different doctrines are being taught here.

[Freedom]

According to the Book of Mormon, it does. See above.

My point is, why are they given this responsibility? A job to convert to Christ can and is done by ministering angels and mortals alike. What special contribution would they bring as translated beings? The scriptures to not say so we really do not know why they are here with this assignment. God could just as easily send a member of the Relief society to bring salvation as a 2,000 year old Nephite. Both have equal access to the Spirit. There must be some special gift of duty that nobody else can fulfill. A gift or duty that is not explained in the scriptures.

[zerinus]

My point is, why are they given this responsibility?

Apparently because they asked for it. The Lord asked them for a wish, and that is what they asked for. If the Lord asked you for a wish, and then granted your wish, would you turn around and argue with Him about it?

A job to convert to Christ can and is done by ministering angels and mortals alike.

I am sure it can; but why do you think that means the Three Nephites should be denied that privilege?

What special contribution would they bring as translated beings?

First of all I question that they are "translated beings". But in either case, the scripture tells us what specific contribution they bring to their callings. Firstly, they are to "tarry," or stay here on earth, so they are living in close proximity with us mortals, and better aware of our circumstances, and thus help those who may be in need of their assistance. Angels and translated beings live in heaven. Secondly, the scripture tells us what special spiritual gift or tallent they bring to their calling. It says, ". . . and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them" (3 Nephi 28:29). So apart from their great faith, power, experience etc., they also have rare spiritual gift, of being able to convince others of the truth of their teachings.

The scriptures to not say so we really do not know why they are here with this assignment.

I think they do; see above.

God could just as easily send a member of the Relief society to bring salvation as a 2,000 year old Nephite. Both have equal access to the Spirit.

Two points here. Firstly, just because a job could be done by a Relief Society sister, it does not mean nobody else should be given the chance to try. Secondly, the scriptures cited indicate that they are able to do more than our good Relief Society sisters are able to do.

There must be some special gift of duty that nobody else can fulfill. A gift or duty that is not explained in the scriptures.

I think it is; see above.

[CV75]

I do have a scriptural word for it.

I maintain there is a scriptural basis using the word “translation/translated” to describe the process/condition the bodies of this class of servant is in, whether they “tarry” or are “taken to heaven” and “reserved.” Those who tarry go back and forth to heaven (3 Nephi 28:12-16), and those who are taken to heaven go back and forth to earth (D&C 110:13-14—it is additionally interesting to me that Jesus made reference of Elijah just prior to translating the three Nephites), depending on their mission and assignment. In either case, all these “categories” of “translated people” can be termed “angels,” and there are many meanings or applications of that word as well.

I'd rather not discuss this further as it detracts from the OP, and inquiring hasn't reponded to any of the replies yet.

[Robert F. Smith]

I don’t know about you, but I don’t consider the Book of Mormon to be a legend.

Depends on how you define the word "legend," which is derived from Latin legendus "lesson to be read" (legere "to read"), which referred to stories about saints which were read on the saints' days. Such collections of stories often included miracles. Cf. Jacobus de Voragine's 13th century Legenda Aurea ("Golden Legend"), which contains just such a hagiography, including a story about Saint Euphemia, who is saved by an angel from death on a torture wheel (in late third century A.D. Chalcedon), the wheel then being used to destroy its maker and then being burned. Did that event really happen, or is it unverifiable folklore?

I refer to the vast oral and written literature available in every culture, including Mormon culture -- in which stories of encounters with the Three Nephites are found. Are they true stories? How would we verify each story?

I wasn't referring to either the Book of Mormon or the Bible, but to stories we find about appearances of characters from those books in later times.

[zerinus]

I maintain there is a scriptural basis using the word “translation/translated” to describe the process/condition the bodies of this class of servant is in, whether they “tarry” or are “taken to heaven” and “reserved.” Those who tarry go back and forth to heaven (3 Nephi 28:12-16), . . .

Paul describes a similar experience (2 Corinthians 12:2–5); he was not translated.

. . . and those who are taken to heaven go back and forth to earth (D&C 110:13-14 . . .), depending on their mission and assignment.

There is no doubt that resurrected, translated, or angelic beings can visit the earth as required to minister to its inhabitants. That is not disputed. But they normally reside in heaven.

[—it is additionally interesting to me that Jesus made reference of Elijah just prior to translating the three Nephites]

That reference was made in an entirely different context, which can have no relevance to our present discussion.

In either case, all these “categories” of “translated people” can be termed “angels,” and there are many meanings or applications of that word as well.

I agree that the word angel can refer a wide variety of beings, including resurrected and translated beings, and sometimes even to mortals. The word angel literally means a “ministering servant”. Even the devil has his own “angels”.

I suppose the ultimate question is whether the kind of “change” made in the bodies of the Three Nephites were identical to the kind of change that was made in the bodies of known translated beings, such as Enoch and his people. If the changes were identical, then they could be classified as belonging to the same category of beings—otherwise they can’t. Unfortunately the scriptures don’t tell us. But in either case, since the word “translate” literally means to “transport,” or remove from one sphere of existence to another (i.e. from earth to heaven); and since this did not appear to have occurred in the case of the Three Nephites; strictly speaking it would be philologically an incorrect use of the term to apply it to the Three Nephites.

I'd rather not discuss this further as it detracts from the OP, and inquiring hasn't reponded to any of the replies yet.

I am not bothered. In a discussion one subject leads to another. There is nothing to stop him from responding any time he wants to.

[zerinus]

Depends on how you define the word "legend," which is derived from Latin legendus "lesson to be read" (legere "to read"), which referred to stories about saints which were read on the saints' days. Such collections of stories often included miracles. Cf. Jacobus de Voragine's 13th century Legenda Aurea ("Golden Legend"), which contains just such a hagiography, including a story about Saint Euphemia, who is saved by an angel from death on a torture wheel (in late third century A.D. Chalcedon), the wheel then being used to destroy its maker and then being burned. Did that event really happen, or is it unverifiable folklore?

I refer to the vast oral and written literature available in every culture, including Mormon culture -- in which stories of encounters with the Three Nephites are found. Are they true stories? How would we verify each story?

I wasn't referring to either the Book of Mormon or the Bible, but to stories we find about appearances of characters from those books in later times.

A legend normally refers to an untrue story, or one whose truth cannot be known or declared with certainty. The truth of the Book of Mormon stories and events I believe can be known and declared with certainty.

Edited May 21, 2012 by zerinus

[CV75]

the word “translate” literally means to “transport,” or remove from one sphere of existence to another (i.e. from earth to heaven); and since this did not appear to have occurred in the case of the Three Nephites; strictly speaking it would be philologically an incorrect use of the term to apply it to the Three Nephites.

Yes, they were transported; reference already provided.

Plus, surely the scriptures and the words used to create them have more than one layer of meaning. Philologically speaking, “translate” also means: convert or be converted into another form or medium; move from one condition to another; move an ecclesiastic authority to another jurisdiction or charge; and convey someone (typically still alive) to heaven (doesn’t mean they can’t come back or go back and forth). Each of these uses applies to the three disciples under discussion. My favorite is that their charge evolved and expanded over the years from the fellow saints of their immediate ministry following the visit of Christ to the Nephites to other jurisdictions and charges among the Gentiles, Jews, and “all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people (3 Nephi 28:27-19).”

One of the results of their translation is that “the powers of the earth could not hold them,” freeing tehm up to visit heaven. The explanation, “in this state they were to remain until …they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out,” shows that in the meantime they did “go out” (which means they also “went in”), or while they “tarry” prior to the judgment, they go in and out / back and forth to heaven (as do other “angels of God”), such as when they “were caught up into the heavens.” Moroni indicated that due to the wickedness of the people, they could well be tarrying somewhere other than “the face of the land,” which as far as I’m concerned includes heaven, the translated City of Enoch, or any other holy place.

These are some of the reasons why “translated beings” is a perfectly appropriate word to use to describe the three Nephites.

I really am by far more interested in the OP's responsee to my post, so unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise, I'll wait for him to post.

[zerinus]

I really am by far more interested in the OP's responsee to my post, so unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise, I'll wait for him to post.

I think he feels that I have already given a good enough answer to his post so he doesn't need to ask any more!