John The Revelator And The Three Nephites

[CV75]

This is a good question that, as far as I am aware, has no answer. I do not understand why we would require them to wonder around. What can they do that a ministering angel or priesthood holder cannot do. I don't think their role has been relieved suggesting that there is a lot about earthly ministries that we do not understand or yet know.

I think it has something to do with demonstrating the several ways that a spirit and body can be connected, and how this supports the Lord’s work in different ways. The mortal and resurrected saints; the spirits of the righteous dead in the spirit world; the inhabitants of the City of Enoch which will return to the earth; Moses and Elijah; John; the Three Nephites each have a distinct mission and their bodies (or lack thereof) are suited for that mission relative to preparing the earth of the Second Coming. Familiarity, experience and continuity in the respective sphere(s) in which they operate play a key role, and this is the advantage in the specific case of a translated being “tarrying.”

[Grundelwalken]

Actually, I believe at least one of them (3 Nephites or John) have been in contact with mortals recently. Every Christmas my wife makes me go to the "Forgotten Carols" and Michael McClean has built himself quite a following using his 'encounter' with John as a foundation. MW

[volgadon]

A legend normally refers to an untrue story, or one whose truth cannot be known or declared with certainty.

In a popular, non-technical sense, yes.

Edited May 21, 2012 by volgadon

[volgadon]

Depends on how you define the word "legend," which is derived from Latin legendus "lesson to be read" (legere "to read"), which referred to stories about saints which were read on the saints' days.

These stories were meant to celebrate and glorify the saint. I've seen the Elisha cycle classified as legends and I would tend to agree. Has nothing to do with veracity, but with genre, as you've pointed out.

[Robert F. Smith]

There is no doubt that resurrected, translated, or angelic beings can visit the earth as required to minister to its inhabitants. That is not disputed. But they normally reside in heaven.

I agree that the word angel can refer a wide variety of beings, including resurrected and translated beings, and sometimes even to mortals. The word angel literally means a “ministering servant”. Even the devil has his own “angels”.

Actually, the words translated "angel" in both Hebrew and Greek (and Arabic) means "messenger," and the Hebrew word is even used for the name of the prophet Malachi "My-Messenger." They may function as ministering servants, etc., but that is not the literal meaning of the word.

[zerinus]

Actually, the words translated "angel" in both Hebrew and Greek (and Arabic) means "messenger," and the Hebrew word is even used for the name of the prophet Malachi "My-Messenger." They may function as ministering servants, etc., but that is not the literal meaning of the word.

I believe the idea of a ministering servant or agent is embedded in the concept of "messenger".

[Robert F. Smith]

zerinus, on 21 May 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

the word “translate” literally means to “transport,” or remove from one sphere of existence to another (i.e. from earth to heaven); and since this did not appear to have occurred in the case of the Three Nephites; strictly speaking it would be philologically an incorrect use of the term to apply it to the Three Nephites.

Yes, they were transported; reference already provided.

Plus, surely the scriptures and the words used to create them have more than one layer of meaning. Philologically speaking, “translate” also means: convert or be converted into another form or medium; move from one condition to another; move an ecclesiastic authority to another jurisdiction or charge; and convey someone (typically still alive) to heaven (doesn’t mean they can’t come back or go back and forth). Each of these uses applies to the three disciples under discussion. My favorite is that their charge evolved and expanded over the years from the fellow saints of their immediate ministry following the visit of Christ to the Nephites to other jurisdictions and charges among the Gentiles, Jews, and “all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people (3 Nephi 28:27-19).”

One of the results of their translation is that “the powers of the earth could not hold them,” freeing tehm up to visit heaven. The explanation, “in this state they were to remain until …they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out,” shows that in the meantime they did “go out” (which means they also “went in”), or while they “tarry” prior to the judgment, they go in and out / back and forth to heaven (as do other “angels of God”), such as when they “were caught up into the heavens.” Moroni indicated that due to the wickedness of the people, they could well be tarrying somewhere other than “the face of the land,” which as far as I’m concerned includes heaven, the translated City of Enoch, or any other holy place.

These are some of the reasons why “translated beings” is a perfectly appropriate word to use to describe the three Nephites.

The three times in Hebrews 11:5 that "translate" is used referring to Enoch, it is based on Greek metathesis "change, remove, take up," which is only indirectly reflected in Hebrew laqach "to take" in Genesis 5:24, in which it says that God "took him." I can't see any reason to identify this sort of event with John and the Three Nephites being allowed to tarry like some long-lived Patriarchs known from the early part of Genesis -- none of whom had to be transformed into some glorious being in order to live very long lives.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Robert F. Smith

[zerinus]

The three times in Hebrews 11:5 that "translate" is used referring to Enoch, it is based on Greek metathesis "change, remove, take up," which is only indirectly reflected in Hebrew laqach "to take" in Genesis 5:24, in which it says that God "took him." I can't see any reason to identify this sort of event with John and the Three Nephites being allowed to tarry like some long-lived Patriarchs known from the early part of Genesis -- none of whom had to be transformed into some glorious being in order to live very long lives.

Well, the scripture does say that a change was made in their bodies so that they would not taste of death. The change also meant that they would not suffer pain or sorrow in their bodies; and they could not be tempted:

3 Nephi 28:

36 And now behold, as I spake concerning those whom the Lord hath chosen, yea, even three who were caught up into the heavens, that I knew not whether they were cleansed from mortality to immortality—

37 But behold, since I wrote, I have inquired of the Lord, and he hath made it manifest unto me that there must needs be a change wrought upon their bodies, or else it needs be that they must taste of death;

38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world.

39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.

The interesting question is, (1) whether that change was identical to the change that was made to Enoch and his people who were translated; and, (2) where do each group of people normally reside, in heaven or on earth? Whether the term "translated" is correctly applied to the Three Nephites or not I think in part depends on how you answer those questions. From my point of view, there is not sufficient scriptural justification for referring to the Three Nephites as "translated".

Edited May 24, 2012 by zerinus

[Robert F. Smith]

Well, the scripture does say that a change was made in their bodies so that they would not taste of death. The change also meant that they would not suffer pain or sorrow in their bodies; and they could not be tempted:

3 Nephi 28:

36 And now behold, as I spake concerning those whom the Lord hath chosen, yea, even three who were caught up into the heavens, that I knew not whether they were cleansed from mortality to immortality—

37 But behold, since I wrote, I have inquired of the Lord, and he hath made it manifest unto me that there must needs be a change wrought upon their bodies, or else it needs be that they must taste of death;

38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world.

39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.

The interesting question is, (1) whether that change was identical to the change that was made to Enoch and his people who were translated; and, (2) where do each group of people normally reside, in heaven on earth? Whether the term "translated" is correctly applied to the Three Nephites or not I think in part depends on how you answer those questions. From my point of view, there is not sufficient scriptural justification for referring to the Three Nephites as "translated".

Yes. You have thought it through, and you make some excellent points here. Very thought provoking.

[CV75]

The three times in Hebrews 11:5 that "translate" is used referring to Enoch, it is based on Greek metathesis "change, remove, take up," which is only indirectly reflected in Hebrew laqach "to take" in Genesis 5:24, in which it says that God "took him." I can't see any reason to identify this sort of event with John and the Three Nephites being allowed to tarry like some long-lived Patriarchs known from the early part of Genesis -- none of whom had to be transformed into some glorious being in order to live very long lives.

It is interesting, that "tarry" could mean to live a very long life as opposed to being "taken up (permanently)," especially since they would end up living some 2000 or more years prior to the coming of Christ. But they were also "taken up" even if briefly.

The first change upon their bodies included something that was "like unto a transfiguration unto them", which was apparently only temporary in order to be caught up into heaven and behold certain things. Then they continued to minister on the earth, presumably with a normal mortal appearance, but with another "change wrought upon them" that I interpret to be something more than mortal and something less resurrected; an internediate state that is less glorious than their celestial/exalted condition, but more glorious than their previous mortal condition (the powers of the earth could not hold them; they were sanctified in the flesh and so were free from pain or sorrow (which I take to include physical strain/stress/heavy labor).

I think the common theme between them and Enoch is that they were "taken up" and then continued in the work of the Lord in this world in a greater-than-mortal condition. To me, "translated" describes "taken up" sufficiently. The difference between the three Nephites and Encoh is what happened in connection with the event/experience of being taken up. Their post-translation bodies were changed, perhaps by different magnetudes or degrees from Enoch's, and they were given a different primary dwelling place (Earth, not the City of Enoch) befitting their assignment. But they can all be called "translated beings" because they were "taken up" and in connection with this were not to taste of death as mortals generally do. To them "death" might simply be the next "greater change" to their bodies.

[Robert F. Smith]

It is interesting, that "tarry" could mean to live a very long life as opposed to being "taken up (permanently)," especially since they would end up living some 2000 or more years prior to the coming of Christ. But they were also "taken up" even if briefly.

The first change upon their bodies included something that was "like unto a transfiguration unto them", which was apparently only temporary in order to be caught up into heaven and behold certain things. Then they continued to minister on the earth, presumably with a normal mortal appearance, but with another "change wrought upon them" that I interpret to be something more than mortal and something less resurrected; an internediate state that is less glorious than their celestial/exalted condition, but more glorious than their previous mortal condition (the powers of the earth could not hold them; they were sanctified in the flesh and so were free from pain or sorrow (which I take to include physical strain/stress/heavy labor).

I think the common theme between them and Enoch is that they were "taken up" and then continued in the work of the Lord in this world in a greater-than-mortal condition. To me, "translated" describes "taken up" sufficiently. The difference between the three Nephites and Encoh is what happened in connection with the event/experience of being taken up. Their post-translation bodies were changed, perhaps by different magnetudes or degrees from Enoch's, and they were given a different primary dwelling place (Earth, not the City of Enoch) befitting their assignment. But they can all be called "translated beings" because they were "taken up" and in connection with this were not to taste of death as mortals generally do. To them "death" might simply be the next "greater change" to their bodies.

O.K. You and Zerinus have convinced me. Thanks.