why me Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 It seems to be an attack thread.As daniel just pointed out, it was he was attacked. How should he respond to the attacks. He needs to respond to attacks that could harm his reputation. And on this thread he is attempting to do it. And people are showing support.
CASteinman Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 I don't see there being that many truly evil people out there, I assume that most who truly delight in doing evil didn't make it past their first estate. Speculation of course.There is an interesting book on the whole matter of Human Evil. It is written by M. Scott Peck of "The Road Less Traveled" fame. It is called "People of the Lie". He discusses qualities and types of evil in people in ways that probably would not sit well with some of the folks here. He talks about how, when he first entered the Psychiatric profession, he did not really believe in "evil" and "satan" and so on, considering these to be throwbacks to a less enlightened time. But over the course of his years of treating people he changed his mind. He talks about some people that he feels may have been cured of evil, but he points out that other people seem to cross a point of no return. In one interesting case, he points out that some of the struggles we see in people are when really good people are -- perhaps through no fault of their own -- entered by malevolent forces. They then act out in ways that are the "good" person -- fighting against the "evil" entity. He has a very interesting few pages where he describes, from real life experiences, very literal, precise and graphic descriptions of "satan" whom he has encountered as an evil force and describes as a heavy lidded, serpent-like, entity that does not understand man's technology -- but does understand how to make man misuse technology. A master manipulator but "it" is so unable to understand words of love and charity that when concepts are expressed in those terms, it will seem to not hear them or else fly into an incoherent rage about nonsensical babblings of man.He speaks as a practitioner seeking to help these people. Often he despairs of being able to do so. To me, the most horrible thing he talks about is that he has observed that some people barely struggle against the evil at all -- and as they barely struggle against it, they "disappear" and melt into the general population. He says, that he feels pretty sure that some people have entirely given themselves over to evil and that these people would be indistinguishable from other people as long as they had an interest or desire to hide their nature -- indeed, he says, they are able to hide perfectly in plain sight. This part of the book is very disturbing in a way because he almost says, but does not quite say it that the numbers of these people could be fairly large and we would never know it. I don't believe we should operate in paranoia. I don't believe we should ascribe mere questioning and doubt to "evil". I don't even believe that just because some people have some problems with sin that they are intrinsically evil. But I don't believe in shying away from the truth: Some people have evil in their hearts -- it is revealed in what they do. And they walk among us and some attack the Children of God. Jesus said, it would be better for them that a millstone were hung around their necks and that they were drowned in the depths of the sea. Does that sound tolerant?
Calm Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Unlike Mercy (we've had this conversation before ), I don't believe that all will be saved. I believe that some, through pride, will reject becoming one with the Father and Son. I believe others, fewer in number hopefully, will completely reject all light and love whatsoever if they can't be the rulers of it all (and of course they can't). And there are those who truly delight in evil and choose evil simply because that is what they desire.So I would agree with you that there are evil people out there and that they, if they are smart enough, hide such evil in order to promote their own agendas.The only caution I would have is, unless the Spirit has witnessed it to me, it would be the last item of possibility I would ever choose in trying to explain someone's behaviour. Edited May 16, 2012 by calmoriah 1
CASteinman Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 Would you say this about a murderer or a rapist who does not want to repent? His he or she a work in progress? Can such people be dismissed as evil? If people are actively attempting to lead people out of the church, are they also a work in progress and heavenly father will save them in the end?It is possible that they are works in progress. Even though I am willing to acknowledge that there are evil people, I am not willing, able or qualified to judge their ultimate destiny or what God will do with them, either way. It is entirely beyond my scope in any regard.But, if they are seeking to undermine the Peace and Faith of the Saints, and to destroy the Work of Christ in the World, that is evil and it needs to be recognized for what it is. But, getting back to murderers and so on. When I was on my mission, we had an area that was somewhat owned as a retirement community for the mob/mafia/whateveryouwannacallit. One of the missionaries tracted out a former hitman. I don't recall -- he had maybe 23 murders to his name. But now that he heard the Gospel he very seriously wanted to repent and be baptized.Word came back from President Kimball: Encourage him to continue to repent and be faithful, he may yet have blessings from God, but do not baptize him.
CASteinman Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 The only caution I would have is, unless the Spirit has witnessed it to me, it would be the last item of possibility I would ever choose in trying to explain someone's behaviour.I understand that standard and have no criticism of it. We are all different people in the Church. You have chosen that path. I, perhaps a bit more readily, accept the descriptions outlined by Jesus and the Apostles in the scriptures. It is appropriate for people to choose and select a balance and I am not wise enough to determine that someone else's choices in this are wrong.So.. I do not feel any way critical of your standard. And its OK... you may (probably) do not -- or cannot reciprocate in that. I do not feel in anyway that makes you wrong or unkind. I love the diversity of fowls in the Tree of the Kingdom of God.
Calm Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 I, perhaps a bit more readily, accept the descriptions outlined by Jesus and the Apostles in the scriptures.I view my own standard as incorporating the teachings of Christ from the scriptures as well, such as do not judge unrighteously.I would have to see your standard in practice before deciding to be critical of your standard. At this point, since the discussion so far has been in abstract without specific examples, it seems fine to me as well. Discussing something in abstract is often very different when viewed in action.
Libs Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Would you say this about a murderer or a rapist who does not want to repent? His he or she a work in progress? Can such people be dismissed as evil? If people are actively attempting to lead people out of the church, are they also a work in progress and heavenly father will save them in the end?I believe so, yes. When I say "a work in progress", I am talking about the eternities. I also believe in reincarnation. I am an...inactive/ex? LDS. Not a critic, though...at least, not most of the time (just to clarify). My beliefs are not from Mormon orthodoxy.Even without reincarnation as a factor or the "eternities", people do, sometimes, have a change of heart, and repent of past actions (even horrendously terrible acts). Edited May 16, 2012 by Libs
Calm Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 Didn't someone suggest the term "lapsed LDS"? I think that one works good for you, Libs, as long as you don't mind it, very alliterative.
mercyngrace Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 I note that Nephi is not exactly saying that he believes God could save us all. He would hope it is all, but if it can't be all, can it please be most? I think you've turned his phrase around.He says please save most, if not all... He doesn't say God will save all but indicates that the possibility exists, a concept reiterated in the scriptural confirmation that "with God nothing is impossible".
mercyngrace Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 I would hope that you will challenge the more mocking and bashing posts on the other board now that you are posting there. People on that board do need some saving. However, if you ignore or show support for their more rabid posts, I may find you to be a hypocrite.Why me, how you find me is irrelevant. How God finds me matters.For example, who would you want to save? On the other board, there are exmos and NOMs. Are they fair game to save? And would you be trying to save them and bring them back into the fold? Or are we over here fair game for you to save?Who does God want to save? I'm with Him.There is no us v. them in my worldview, Why Me. Here's how I see things:My dear brethren of the priesthood, my beloved fellow disciples of the gentle Christ, should we not hold ourselves to a higher standard? As priesthood bearers, we must realize that all of God’s children wear the same jersey. Our team is the brotherhood of man. This mortal life is our playing field. Our goal is to learn to love God and to extend that same love toward our fellowman. We are here to live according to His law and establish the kingdom of God. We are here to build, uplift, treat fairly, and encourage all of Heavenly Father’s children.Also, fwiw, I can't save anyone and I have no delusions to that end. I can only be what I believe. If you see me behaving in a way that is unseemly on the other board, feel free to call me out. 2
mercyngrace Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 I understand. But I think that she will be posting there a little more now because she has found a friend. And that is fine. It is just that I have found that people who quote verses about never giving up on someone etc, tend to ignore the people who actually need saving when they are posting on the internet. Words are just words but actions are actions. Lets see what happens.Ahh, so you've prejudged me based on your past experiences?I have several friends over there with whom I've had infrequent contact via PM. That was the whole point in registering there some time ago.Again, I reissue my invitation. If you see me behaving in any way that is incongruous with what I believe as a disciple of Christ, you point it out. 1
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 that PaPa really knows his [deleted] I am right here at Six Flags to give a reference point to someone from Zion (Georgia). I worked downtown in City Hall for 23 years, so I really know my [deleted].
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 Unlike Mercy (we've had this conversation before ), I don't believe that all will be saved. I believe that some, through pride, will reject becoming one with the Father and Son. I believe others, fewer in number hopefully, will completely reject all light and love whatsoever if they can't be the rulers of it all (and of course they can't). And there are those who truly delight in evil and choose evil simply because that is what they desire.Good point, I think when we stand before God to be judged he will be begging us to stay, and many will not choose too.
zerinus Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) I've noted before that Xander/Kevin tends to brand those who disagree with him as unscrupulous, cowardly, incompetent, and/or lying, which is one of the reasons that I stopped interacting with him even back in the days when he was still a Latter-day Saint. Life is short, and I have no patience for such rhetoric or such treatment.<snip>I always like to look at the positive side of things. I think you should be glad that people are talking about you at all, rather than ignoring you--even if that means being spoken "evil against". The only thing that is worse than being spoken "evil of," is not being spoken of at all! Edited May 16, 2012 by zerinus
Buzzard Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Good point, I think when we stand before God to be judged he will be begging us to stay, and many will not choose too.I think a certain Mr. C.S. Lewis put it succinctly when he penned in "The Great Divorce": "In then end, there are only two types of people. Those who say to God, "Thy will be done", and those who God tells "THY will be done"." Hard to believe that some will reject God when they are face to face with him, but it seems like that is what some will choose to do.My daughter, who has a minor in Editing, would surely have an issue with my profilgate use of quotation marks, but I do the best I can with the grammer light that I have been given.... Edited May 16, 2012 by Buzzard
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 I do the best I can with the grammer light that I have been given....Great comment.
stemelbow Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 I always like to look at the positive side of things. I think you should be glad that people are talking about you at all, rather than ignoring you--even if that means being spoken "evil against". The only thing that is worse than being spoken "evil of," is not being spoken of at all! They are by and large anonymous for a reason, I'd say, but so am I. Kevin's an exception. Anyway, I agree with this. You know you've been effective with someone if some anonymous nincompoop dedicates years of his life to attack you and that nincompoop has a following. In a way, it's outrageous stuff. Don't tell them that, the'll get outraged. Just kidding, I know they read here looking for comments to whimper about. I thought I'd give them something.
mercyngrace Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) I think a certain Mr. C.S. Lewis put it succinctly when he penned in "The Great Divorce": "In then end, there are only two types of people. Those who say to God, "Thy will be done", and those who God tells "THY will be done"." Hard to believe that some will reject God when they are face to face with him, but it seems like that is what some will choose to do.What's interesting though is that Lewis never really closes the door. The presumption is that the bus will continue to come and go, carrying all who desire - even wrongly motivated - to where there is more light where the choice to progress can be made once more.The question is not whether the gates of heaven are ever closed, (John's Revelation says they aren't) but whether a soul can hold out indefinitely in the face of the invitation to enter.We can only conjecture at this point but my position is simply this: Forever is a long time to resist God's love.(There's my hope, springing eternal again...) Edited May 16, 2012 by mercyngrace 1
Calm Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 . The only thing that is worse than being spoken "evil of," is not being spoken of at all! Perhaps it is my introverted nature, but i'd much rather be ignored.
zerinus Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Perhaps it is my introverted nature, but i'd much rather be ignored.I don't believe it. Having nearly 25,000 posts to your credit isn't the way of putting yourself in the ignore list. Edited May 16, 2012 by zerinus
Libs Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 Didn't someone suggest the term "lapsed LDS"? I think that one works good for you, Libs, as long as you don't mind it, very alliterative. Thanks, Calmoriah. Lapsed LDS...hmm...yes, that could work. I don't like to use "Ex", because people often assume that means you are a critic. I was using "Formerly LDS" for awhile, which seems a bit softer.
zerinus Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) P.S. I am reminded of the words of angel Moroni to Joseph Smith, that "[his] name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people" (JS—H 1:33). I think that both of those were "pluses" for Joseph Smith—to be spoken of both good as well as evil among all nations. I think that is applicable to every Latter-day Saint—unless, of course, those "evils" are true, in which case then he would have something to worry about. Edited May 16, 2012 by zerinus
Log Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) We can only conjecture at this point but my position is simply this: Forever is a long time to resist God's love.(There's my hope, springing eternal again...)And this feeling is why there was a war in Heaven."Behold - here am I! Send me! I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it!" Edited May 16, 2012 by Log
Libs Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 And this feeling is why there was a war in Heaven."Behold, here am I! Send me! I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it!"I think there is a difference between believing that GOD will save all..and believing that you, yourself, might be a "savior".
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