How Can God Forgive Sin?

[Mudcat]

Hi all,

The question I have is slightly more complex than the OP title and it may have a short anwer.

It seems that LDS believe that good exists apart from God, more specifically that there is some standard of good that is apart from God that God is in complete agreement with. In a sense this agreement with good seems to be the qualifier for God to be God.

In a classical sense it seems LDS take the first horn of Euthyphro's dilemma. In that LDS might be more comforatable with the statement that " good is commanded by God because it is good" - Hopefully that isn't a mistatement on my part.

http://en.wikipedia....thyphro_dilemma

My question is this. If good is actually a standard unto itself, then how is it possible for God to forgive sin? Sin would be a direct transgression against good rather than a direct transgression of an adherent to good like God, I would think.

In that respect, it would seem that to hold such a view then one would need some sort of mechanism that established God's authority to speak on behalf of good. How are God's judicial powers granted?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Edited May 8, 2012 by Mudcat

[Stargazer]

I have little time to respond, so this will be short. Perhaps others will fix my brevity.

It is only possible to forgive sin when the sinner has accepted Jesus Christ as his or her Savior, been baptized by water and by fire, and then does Grace become operative. Jesus willingly and voluntarily suffered for sin when He had no sin, thus making his suffering, His Atonement, infinite, in the same way that 1 divided by 0 is effectively infinite. It is thus "large enough" to accommodate the forgiveness of all whom the Son chooses to accomodate. This is, in fact, the nature of Grace.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Simply put, in the Book of Mormon, there is the notion that there is what you call Good. Sins (acting against the good) require some sort of justice to be meted out. That justice (punishment, whatever) is taken by God (in the atonement). Allowing God to make us Good as God is Good. Since God takes the punishment for all mankind (satisfying justice) God is able to sanctify us (make us Good) as we become partners with God in faith. So - it is the act of accepting the punishment vicariously for the sins of all mankind that gives God the authority to speak on behalf of Good. God paid for all sin (for those he forgives and for those he doesn't).

Ben M.

[bluebell]

If it wasn't for the Atonement, could God forgive sin?

[David T]

Hi all,

The question I have is slightly more complex than the OP title and it may have a short anwer.

It seems that LDS believe that good exists apart from God, more specifically that there is some standard of good that is apart from God that God is in complete agreement with. In a sense this agreement with good seems to be the qualifier for God to be God.

In a classical sense it seems LDS take the first horn of Euthyphro's dilemma. In that LDS might be more comforatable with the statement that " good is commanded by God because it is good" - Hopefully that isn't a mistatement on my part.

http://en.wikipedia....thyphro_dilemma

My question is this. If good is actually a standard unto itself, then how is it possible for God to forgive sin? Sin would be a direct transgression against good rather than a direct transgression of an adherent to good like God, I would think.

In that respect, it would seem that to hold such a view then one would need some sort of mechanism that established God's authority to speak on behalf of good. How are God's judicial powers granted?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

This is a great question. It's actually one that Blake Ostler explores quite in depth in his Exploring Mormon Thought books, especially Volume 2. His answer appears to be deeply ingrained with the concept of Good being determined by Community, and God - and us, and the nature of a Godhead - being part of a Covenant Community/Family.

My take is that Sin is a transgression with practical opposition to the ultimate Goals of the Covenant Family.

Edited May 8, 2012 by David T

[Vance]

If it wasn't for the Atonement, could God forgive sin?

If I understand this verse correctly, it implies the answer is no.

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Edited to add,

As do these verses.

Eph. 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Edited May 8, 2012 by Vance

[mercyngrace]

What a thoughtful question. Here's how I understand it:

God is our "God" by covenant.

As part of the covenant, He promised to help us progress to become as He is.

God is "just" in the sense that He honors His covenants with perfection and precision and in the sense that He is the embodiment of charity and virtue. To exist as He is requires that we become the same.

The demand for "justice" in the sense that evil-doers must be punished actually comes from lesser intelligences like Satan (the accuser) and men (our blood cries out when we have been mistreated, for example).

In order to keep His covenant as our God, God must execute "justice" because otherwise, neither the injured nor the offender can progress toward the exalted existence God lives remaining slave to sinful natures and offenses.

As lesser beings, we execute justice upon one another but it never satisfies because none of us are truly in a position to judge one another. We are all sinful. We even execute justice upon ourselves, tormenting ourselves in our own internal hell - Alma's incomprehensible and exquisite pain - with a bright recollection of all our guilt.

We need to be appeased. We need to learn that charity never fails and that grace can overcome our fallen nature. We must learn that, as Christ taught in the Sermon on the Mount, we cannot be forgiven unless we forgive.

Enter the Messiah.

He suffers, not a t!t for tat payment for sin, but an infinite and eternal condescension - complete exile from God and death in the truest sense.

He now has the capacity to exercise "rights of mercy" (so called in the BOM) and to succor His people. Succoring His people, among other things, entails freeing them from the judgments of others, including the great accuser, and freeing them from their own self-condemnation. He does this by redirecting the eyes of all accusers toward Himself.

He speaks as the sinner's advocate and He tenderly implores the Father, whose right, by covenant, it is to judge.

Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—

Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;

Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

Those who accept His atoning offering become free from the weight of their sins and free from the desire to judge others, hoping, praying, and pleading with the Father instead that all men will come unto Christ.

Accepting the ring and robe, accepting grace, makes sons and daughters from slaves of sin. Our nature changes as we follow after Christ and the Father is perfectly just, not because evil-doers go free but because wicked men become saints. His work and glory, the covenant to exalt is executed justly, not in spite of, but through mercy again proving His perfectly just nature.

The process of becoming godly does not begin at mortal birth nor does it end at the death of this body. Godly attributes are acquired as, once freed from sin and second death (separation from God), we abide a progressively narrow way (which is actually the height of freedom - talk about unexpected surprises!). Like climbing a ladder, we eventually approach God as we have become like Him. Through Christ alone, we pass into His presence and do so with the ratifying consent of the Holy Spirit.

It's a beautiful gospel and a glorious journey.

Edited May 8, 2012 by mercyngrace

[bluebell]

If I understand this verse correctly, it implies the answer is no.

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Edited to add,

As do these verses.

Eph. 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Doesn't it seem that if God cannot forgive sin without the mediation of Jesus Christ satisfying the demands of justice, then Good must be something apart from God?

[ERayR]

Justice and mercy(forgiveness) are always at odds. Mercy cannot rob justice. If a sin is committed then the penalty must be paid. Enter the atonement. Jesus Christ was sinless yet he suffered the penalties for all sins. He paid the penalty when none was required of him thus he has a claim on justice that in effect can never be paid. Therefore when we accept that atonement and embrace Christ as our savior he lets us draw on that debt owed to him. This extends forgiveness to us and satisfies justice at the same time.

[Mudcat]

Simply put, in the Book of Mormon, there is the notion that there is what you call Good. Sins (acting against the good) require some sort of justice to be meted out. That justice (punishment, whatever) is taken by God (in the atonement). Allowing God to make us Good as God is Good. Since God takes the punishment for all mankind (satisfying justice) God is able to sanctify us (make us Good) as we become partners with God in faith. So - it is the act of accepting the punishment vicariously for the sins of all mankind that gives God the authority to speak on behalf of Good. God paid for all sin (for those he forgives and for those he doesn't).

Ben M.

Thanks for the reply Ben.

Hope your doing well. Stargazers post seemed similar veined but your's was the more specific, especially in portion I emphasized.

For quite some time, I held to a similar view and I believe there are other non-LDS Christians who's position sets them in line with in a vaguer sense with LDS on this particular point. I have fairly recently shifted ground on this and accept the seeming arbitrariness of the alternate position.

What I personally found difficult about the position, bold mine, is that even though we agree that we do see a trade off for sin. God, through Christ's atonement, has paid for our sin.

But what I ran into is that it seems like an impossible transaction. "Good" does not seem to be an agent or individual that can say, "Yes what God has done is acceptable, their sins are payed for in full if they choose to capitalize on your payment."

Good in this particular perspective, seems to act more like a physical law.. gravity or something like that. I am assuming, that the vicarious sacrafice for others, would simply be an applied principal of that law. I can't come up with a good analogy that way though... (I'll offer a terrible stab at one)

Maybe something like God absorbs the mass of a series of bodies so that he can judicially apply or suspend the law of gravity. In that respect it might be like a balance scale, God's atonment acts as a counterbalance on our behalf in some respect. The atonement in that respect would be more like a physics experiment than a purchase transaction though.

Hopefully that made sense,

Regards,

Mudcat

[altersteve]

It is only possible to forgive sin when the sinner has accepted Jesus Christ as his or her Savior, been baptized by water and by fire, and then does Grace become operative.

I disagree with this. One does not have to be baptized in order for God to forgive them. Repentance comes before baptism.

[Mudcat]

If it wasn't for the Atonement, could God forgive sin?

Hi Bluebell,

I don't think so, but as I see it God is fountainhead of good and it can't exist apart from God. When good is transgressed then really it is God that is being trangressed and judgement or clemency seems rightfully his.

But I suppose the deeper question I am positing is, if good exists apart from God. If we transgress, we transgress against good. Now God, being in agreement with what is good, may take offense at our transgression of good but I am having a hard time understanding why God would be able to forgive us on "goods" behalf.. or even how "good" can be transgressed against.. if it operates like a physical law rather than an individual who could take offense.

Would a rocket ship that is resisting gravity be transgressing gravity?

[Mudcat]

This is a great question. It's actually one that Blake Ostler explores quite in depth in his Exploring Mormon Thought books, especially Volume 2. His answer appears to be deeply ingrained with the concept of Good being determined by Community, and God - and us, and the nature of a Godhead - being part of a Covenant Community/Family.

My take is that Sin is a transgression with practical opposition to the ultimate Goals of the Covenant Family.

Bold mine David. This notion seems to fall more in line with my own thinking. It makes more sense to me that a being or body that establishes/determines something has rights to adjudicate. I may be missing something though, if such is the case, doesn't this set Blake a little outside general held LDS ideas.. or am I missing something?

[cinepro]

Hi Bluebell,

I don't think so, but as I see it God is fountainhead of good and it can't exist apart from God. When good is transgressed then really it is God that is being trangressed and judgement or clemency seems rightfully his.

But I suppose the deeper question I am positing is, if good exists apart from God. If we transgress, we transgress against good. Now God, being in agreement with what is good, may take offense at our transgression of good but I am having a hard time understanding why God would be able to forgive us on "goods" behalf.. or even how "good" can be transgressed against.. if it operates like a physical law rather than an individual who could take offense.

Would a rocket ship that is resisting gravity be transgressing gravity?

I've made a similar observation.

First, the Plan of Salvation requires that there be some universal “entity” that is more powerful than God, and keeping God from just forgiving us of our sins outright. One of the fundamental ideas of the Plan of Salvation is that God would love for us to return to live with Him, but there’s something more powerful than Him that keeps Him from forgiving us our sins.

For some reason, this entity (I’ll call it “Justyce”) determines whether or not someone is allowed to become God-like (and receive Celestial Glory). Justyce has a set of universally applied rules for humans that want to progress and become more god-like. If a humanoid spirit breaks any of these rules, Justyce will not allow God to exalt them.

Justyce has communicated these rules to God somehow, so God is able to communicate the rules to humans living on Earth.

Presumably, if any human were able to live their entire lives without breaking a single rule, they would be allowed by Justyce to receive exaltation, and everything would be great.

But for some reason, Justyce’s rules happen to include a few things that are common in the human experience. Even without knowing them, everyone, everywhere is able to figure out how to break the rules and make themselves unworthy for exaltation. The only exception appears to be young children and the mentally disabled; Justyce understands that some people break the rules but don’t understand what they’re doing, so it’s OK. But people who break the rules as adults are still held accountable, even if they were never told the rules.

So, with Justyce’s rules, we would have a 0% success rate for exaltation for eligible persons.

Luckily, there is a loophole that allows people to have broken Justyce’s rules, but still achieve exaltation. And luckily, Justyce has told God about this loophole. For some reason, people are allowed to become exalted, even if they have broken Justyce’s rules, if a perfectly sinless human can be found, and he undergoes a terrific amount of suffering. If that can happen, Justyce will allow people who have sinned to be exalted by God.

Another part of the deal is that God then gets to make up his own set of rules for the people who have sinned but want to become exalted. Once the sinless human has “suffered” for all the sinners, then the sinners only get to be exalted if they follow these new rules set forth by God. As instituted by the God of Earth, these rules involve things such as baptism and Temple Ordinances. I’m not sure if Justyce cares about these things.

The real question is how all of this was discovered by the humanoid spirits. Justyce isn't just some universal force like gravity, because it would apparently be able to communicate the intricate details of sin and repentance. If it weren't able to communicate this, then all of these rules (and the whole sacrifice/atonement thing) would have to be figured out by trial and error (like how we figured out gravity).

Edited May 8, 2012 by cinepro

[David T]

Bold mine David. This notion seems to fall more in line with my own thinking. It makes more sense to me that a being or body that establishes/determines something has rights to adjudicate. I may be missing something though, if such is the case, doesn't this set Blake a little outside general held LDS ideas.. or am I missing something?

Blake is often outside 'generally held' LDS ideas, mainly because many of the generally held ideas are not often deconstructed, with the implications analyzed. His books take an analytical logical and philosophical approach. I don't always agree with his conclusions, but the series is fantastic, and definitely worth the time and effort (and it will take both) to engage.

[rpn]

He doesn't forgive sin: He forgives people.

[altersteve]

He doesn't forgive sin: He forgives people.

Bingo.

[CV75]

My question is this. If good is actually a standard unto itself, then how is it possible for God to forgive sin?

I believe that “Good” is “God” just as much as “God” is “Good.” There is no separating one from the other as a thing unto itself. For example, it is said that God abides eternal law, but what I think this means is that God is Eternal Law, in Very Person (or put more profanely, eternal law is a Personality, or even more profanely, an attribute of the Personality of God). He is the integration of all divine attributes (in their totality called Good), and all divine attributes are Him. For our profane learning purposes it is evidently sometimes helpful to separate the concepts, or approach the oneness of them by degrees.

How this relates to His ability and means of forgiving is that God is Forgiveness, which is a synthesis of concepts described in this thread (and elsewhere) about the Atonement.

This also relates to an Inseparably Connected, Eternal, Perfected Body and Spirit being Good, which is His work and glory.

[Stargazer]

I disagree with this. One does not have to be baptized in order for God to forgive them. Repentance comes before baptism.

And yet, one may be baptized before one repents. In fact, unless one dies immediately upon coming up out of the water of baptism, one will most assuredly be repenting after baptism. The water does not turn us into perfect beings. Thus baptism and repentance are inextricably bound up. I was not implying a necessary sequence.

As was implied in an earlier post, God cannot forgive without Jesus's Grace, and without repentence, Jesus's Grace is not available. This is because mercy cannot rob justice (else God would cease to be God, as Lehi said). Only Christ's voluntary and willing sacrifice, the unblemished Lamb, makes it possible for God to forgive.

[David T]

Only Christ's voluntary and willing sacrifice, the unblemished Lamb, makes it possible for God to forgive.

I disagree. I feel the Atonement - including his entire life and ministry - when comprehended and internalized, does more to bring us to a point where we allow ourselves to accept forgiveness, and to willingly drop baggage that would otherwise halt our joy and progression.

To rephrase, my position is that Jesus didn't come so God would forgive. God has been capable of forgiveness from before we got on the earth. He is a God of Love, and Compassion. Jesus came to show us love, and to accept, understand, and truly believe the forgiveness, and to encourage us to walk back, unashamed, to our Covenant Family. "We love God because he first loved us."

Someone or something requiring a bloody and painful sacrifice to allow God to forgive us makes no sense to me, and is in a sense repugnant. However, a god coming down to show how real his love was, and what he was willing to do to communicate that love to us, however, rings of beauty and truth. And makes me desire to repent out of love for both the Father and the Son.

Edited May 8, 2012 by David T

[mercyngrace]

I disagree with this. One does not have to be baptized in order for God to forgive them. Repentance comes before baptism.

Christ forgave those who killed Him even while they did it. The NT says He forgave us while we were yet His enemies.

Like you, AlterSteve, I disagree with Stargazer on this.

[mercyngrace]

If it wasn't for the Atonement, could God forgive sin?

He could but He would cease to be God.

Forgiveness comes as accusers are appeased and stones are willingly laid down.

If God chose to forgive arbitrarily, those who were not ready to lay down their stones would find His judgments unjust and they would cease to be bound by the very covenant that makes Him their God.

Edited May 8, 2012 by mercyngrace

[bluebell]

He could but He would cease to be God.

Forgiveness comes as accusers are appeased and stones are willingly laid down.

If God chose to forgive arbitrarily, those who were not ready to lay down their stones would find His judgments unjust and they would cease to be bound by the very covenant that makes Him their God.

I'm not sure if i'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that God cannot forgive someone until the person that person has wronged is ready for God to forgive them?

[mercyngrace]

I'm not sure if i'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that God cannot forgive someone until the person that person has wronged is ready for God to forgive them?

No.

I'm saying that we are God's "children" by covenant and that part of that covenant requires Him to execute perfect justice. If He failed to do so, He would violate the covenant and cease to be God - this is basically a restating of Alma's "God would cease to be God".

The key word in what I posted is "arbitrarily". God cannot forgive arbitrarily. He has to do it in accordance with our agreed upon concept of justice. Christ's atonement is what allows God to forgive sinners who cannot truly ever make restitution. Christ's "payment" for sin (a metaphor which satisfies men, I am convinced, but does not accurately define what actually occurs) meets the demands of all accusers for justice. This makes the forgiveness just and NOT arbitrary.

Edited May 8, 2012 by mercyngrace

[bluebell]

No.

I'm saying that we are God's "children" by covenant and that part of that covenant requires Him to execute perfect justice. If He failed to do so, He would violate the covenant and cease to be God - this is basically a restating of Alma's "God would cease to be God".

The key word in what I posted is "arbitrarily". God cannot forgive arbitrarily. He has to do it in accordance with our agreed upon concept of justice. Christ's atonement is what allows God to forgive sinners who cannot truly ever make restitution. Christ's "payment" for sin (a metaphor which satisfies men, I am convinced, but does not accurately define what actually occurs) meets the demands of all accusers for justice. This makes the forgiveness just and NOT arbitrary.

That makes more sense than what i thought you were saying.