Time To Revisit

[Bob Oliverio]

It just gets more and more confusing for the Church, the message and the truth!

http://www.sfltimes.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9765&Itemid=331

Here is but the latest of statements made by those in our Church that make no sense.  And this is supposedly from an African American elder who gets press attention:

"Marvin Perkins, an African-American elder in the LDS church in Los Angeles, said the restriction against blacks serving as priests was started “for personal reasons.”

 “My research revealed that it came as a result of Brigham Young trying to ensure that there were no interracial marriages,” he said."

We saw when Prof. Randy Bott made very articulate historical statements get refuted by Church spokespersons.  And now this member makes statement that I've never heard before but will probably never get publicly never get refuted because he IS black.  It's seems to get more and more embarrassing for us .

We need a plan.  And it has to start with an apology.

[Pahoran]

It just gets more and more confusing for the Church, the message and the truth!

http://www.sfltimes....9765&Itemid=331

Here is but the latest of statements made by those in our Church that make no sense. And this is supposedly from an African American elder who gets press attention:

"Marvin Perkins, an African-American elder in the LDS church in Los Angeles, said the restriction against blacks serving as priests was started “for personal reasons.”

“My research revealed that it came as a result of Brigham Young trying to ensure that there were no interracial marriages,” he said."

We saw when Prof. Randy Bott made very articulate historical statements get refuted by Church spokespersons. And now this member makes statement that I've never heard before but will probably never get publicly never get refuted because he IS black. It's seems to get more and more embarrassing for us .

We need a plan. And it has to start with an apology.

Right. So when are you planning to give us one?

Bob, there was nothing wrong with your post until you got to the last line. Did you actually want to discuss something, or was the news item just a convenient excuse for you to start sawing away on your one-string fiddle? When, if ever, are you going to stop your incessant whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiining on this subject?

Regards,

Pahoran

[jwhitlock]

We can add demands for an apology to the list of statements that make no sense.

Such "confusion" as is claimed is not shared by those who think more clearly.

[Calm]

And now this member makes statement that I've never heard before

why me has actually given this reason a number of times on this forum.

[Buckeye]

We saw when Prof. Randy Bott made very articulate historical statements get refuted by Church spokespersons. And now this member makes statement that I've never heard before but will probably never get publicly never get refuted because he IS black. It's seems to get more and more embarrassing for us .

We need a plan. And it has to start with an apology.

I doubt the church's reaction to public statements by its members is based on the skin color of the person speaking. Reverse the races of Brother Bott and Brother Perkins and you'd get the similar church responses (or non-responses). The church can't respond to everything, nor should it. Its decision to respond depends on several factors, some of which are (i) how much public attention is being paid to the statement and (ii) how much the statement is at odds with current church teachings. My guess is that Brother Perkin's views are not considered at odds with church doctrine (regardless of whether they are "right") and so there is no need to refute them.

While the church's public position is that it "does not know" the reason for the ban, the church has not counseled members against seeking out answers for themselves. All it has said is that certain answers, such as Professor's Bott's views and previous "folklore" are wrong. Any other answer - including Brother Perkins' - is tolerated.

In the long term, I do expect to see an apology. But I don't expect to hear a specific reason given for the ban (assuming there is one "reason", which I doubt). Different members will have different views, but all will understand the ban was wrong. As time goes on, the issue will die away. It's the same pattern we see with MMM. The church has apologized. There are still many historical facts that are not settled and likely never will be. But because the church as apologized, there is nothing left for the public to demand and so the issue is dying. We'll see the same thing happen here.

[DBMormon]

The church only need apoligize if they were going against God's will, If there was no revelation in 1978, and if God always considers it wrong to go against man's public opinion... I have been called a troll and I even see this as a non issue... lol

While I can not sympathize with an african lineage person who was denied priesthood, I can empathize.... It stinks and makes one wonder the exact reasoning. It is likely painful .. but it is no different then Women not getting the priesthood, levites only allowed to touch the ark, only the twelve were permitted into the upper chamber for jesus to wash their feet... we all have felt what it is like to be snubbed at something... yet God has his reasons for all of this and any other percieved injustice commited. Life is about learning with opposition and discouragement being a part of that process

Edited April 20, 2012 by reelmormon

[rpn]

The speculation that it is was related to Brigham Young's concern about interracial marriage is not new. Whether it was personal to BY, or that BY felt the church couldn't take one more issue, that will not be known until after judgment I suspect, and by then I doubt we'll care.

[mfbukowski]

It just gets more and more confusing for the Church, the message and the truth!

http://www.sfltimes....9765&Itemid=331

Here is but the latest of statements made by those in our Church that make no sense. And this is supposedly from an African American elder who gets press attention:

"Marvin Perkins, an African-American elder in the LDS church in Los Angeles, said the restriction against blacks serving as priests was started “for personal reasons.”

“My research revealed that it came as a result of Brigham Young trying to ensure that there were no interracial marriages,” he said."

We saw when Prof. Randy Bott made very articulate historical statements get refuted by Church spokespersons. And now this member makes statement that I've never heard before but will probably never get publicly never get refuted because he IS black. It's seems to get more and more embarrassing for us .

We need a plan. And it has to start with an apology.

I know Marvin Perkins and he is extremely knowledgeable on this subject, as is Darius Gray. He was one of the heads of the Genesis Group which has done some phenomenal missionary work for the church in this area.

http://blacksinthescriptures.com/

http://www.ldsgenesisgroup.org/

If there needs to be an apology, it should not be coming from Marvin, for anything he has said or done, I can tell you that.

I know that isn't what you meant- but your attack on him is unfounded.

Edited April 21, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Incidentally, this is the history of the Genesis Group from their website:

History of Genesis

On June 8, 1971, exactly seven years before President Spencer W. Kimball received a revelation extending the priesthood to "all worthy males," modern Church history was made as Elder Gordon B. Hinckley, Elder Thomas S. Monson, and Elder Boyd K. Packer (then junior apostles) met with three Black Latter-day Saints—Ruffin Bridgeforth, Darius Gray, and Eugene Orr—to discuss how the Church might better support its members of African descent. These six men worked together weekly until The Genesis Group was established as an auxiliary unit of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on October 19, 1971, under the direction of President Joseph Fielding Smith.

The Genesis Group was established to meet the needs of Black members, many of whom were descendants of early pioneers, with the hope of reactivating those who had left the Church and of supporting new converts of African descent. The late Ruffin Bridgeforth served as president from 1971 until his death in 1997. Darius Gray, who served as a counselor to President Bridgeforth, succeeded him as president in 1997 and served until his release in 2003. Don Harwell received the calling to succeed him.

Elder LeGrand R. Curtis, Jr., Area Authority Seventy, is currently assigned as the presiding general authority over Genesis.

The Genesis Group meets on the first Sunday of each month at 7 p.m. in the meetinghouse at 6710 South 1300 East, Salt Lake City.

http://www.ldsgenesisgroup.org/history.htm

[Bob Oliverio]

Right. So when are you planning to give us one?

Bob, there was nothing wrong with your post until you got to the last line. Did you actually want to discuss something, or was the news item just a convenient excuse for you to start sawing away on your one-string fiddle? When, if ever, are you going to stop your incessant whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiining on this subject?

Regards,

Pahoran

Mr/Ms  Pahoran,

I think it may be a matter of experience and/or perspective that separates our views.  I grew up in a very racially integrated culture from grade school through law school.  I live and work in a community that is extremely integrated here in Atlanta.  I  did not grow up in an all white church or live in a state where the African American community is less 1% of the population.  

The fact that I'm not a BIC member is actually a blessing for me on being able to look at many issues facing the Church and being free from cultural bias. Right or wrong, I don't prescribe to the historical persecution complex that I often see many members here in Atlanta use as their first line of defense before thinking through issues.

But if we are to expand and extend our message of the gospel to an ever more educated population who have access to, perhaps, much more of our church history to many of those who grew up within the Church, I believe we need to start coming to grips with issues and history that are limiting our growth and message. And I believe that has to start with a perspective that may well have to come from a view, an experience, and a perspective that is originated from outside of the Utah culture.

No disrespect intended to anyone.  Just being honest.

[selek1]

I think it may be a matter of experience and/or perspective that separates our views. I grew up in a very racially integrated culture from grade school through law school. I live and work in a community that is extremely integrated here in Atlanta. I did not grow up in an all white church or live in a state where the African American community is less 1% of the population.

The fact that I'm not a BIC member is actually a blessing for me on being able to look at many issues facing the Church and being free from cultural bias. Right or wrong, I don't prescribe to the historical persecution complex that I often see many members here in Atlanta use as their first line of defense before thinking through issues.

But if we are to expand and extend our message of the gospel to an ever more educated population who have access to, perhaps, much more of our church history to many of those who grew up within the Church, I believe we need to start coming to grips with issues and history that are limiting our growth and message. And I believe that has to start with a perspective that may well have to come from a view, an experience, and a perspective that is originated from outside of the Utah culture.

No disrespect intended to anyone. Just being honest.

"No disrespect intended"- except when implying that the only possible reasons to oppose an apology are ignorance or latent racism.

As Nemesis warned in an earlier thread the Moderation team is taking a stronger stance against Threads and Posts that are intended to Race Bait. This also includes posts that are considered racially charged to a reasonable reader regardless of the posters intent.

Apparently SOME race-baiting is more equal than others.

Mod baiting isn't a good remedy. You are out of the thread.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Minos

[Log]

.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Log

[volgadon]

I think it may be a matter of experience and/or perspective that separates our views. I grew up in a very racially integrated culture from grade school through law school. I live and work in a community that is extremely integrated here in Atlanta. I did not grow up in an all white church or live in a state where the African American community is less 1% of the population.

He is a New-Zealander.

[Calm]

being free from cultural bias

No one is free from cultural bias. You may be free from a particular bias, but it would be impossible to free of all of them.

The use of the Ms., for example, instead of Miss or Mrs. or Madame is a result of cultural bias.

The belief that not being BIC is a bias as well.

Edited April 21, 2012 by calmoriah

[Law22]

While the church's public position is that it "does not know" the reason for the ban. . .

In the long term, I do expect to see an apology. But I don't expect to hear a specific reason given for the ban (assuming there is one "reason", which I doubt).. .

I don't understand the church's "public" position that it does not know the reason for the ban. Just seems silly to me, and makes me wonder what the church's "private" position is.

It seems to me that if and when the LDS church decides to apologize, they'd have to acknowledge the specific reason for the ban. It also seems that that reason should become fairly obvious when reminded that BY referred to black people as "darkies." Can't we just man up? Heck, even Abraham Lincoln was racist.

[cinepro]

The church only need apoligize if they were going against God's will, If there was no revelation in 1978, and if God always considers it wrong to go against man's public opinion...

I don't recall specifically, but did the Church "apologize" for baptizing the names of holocaust victims? If so, that could be a precedent for following "God's will" but apologizing for the offense taken by a group of people.

If not, then it isn't an example and please disregard this post.

[ERayR]

Mr/Ms Pahoran,

I think it may be a matter of experience and/or perspective that separates our views. I grew up in a very racially integrated culture from grade school through law school. I live and work in a community that is extremely integrated here in Atlanta. I did not grow up in an all white church or live in a state where the African American community is less 1% of the population.

The fact that I'm not a BIC member is actually a blessing for me on being able to look at many issues facing the Church and being free from cultural bias. Right or wrong, I don't prescribe to the historical persecution complex that I often see many members here in Atlanta use as their first line of defense before thinking through issues.

But if we are to expand and extend our message of the gospel to an ever more educated population who have access to, perhaps, much more of our church history to many of those who grew up within the Church, I believe we need to start coming to grips with issues and history that are limiting our growth and message. And I believe that has to start with a perspective that may well have to come from a view, an experience, and a perspective that is originated from outside of the Utah culture.

No disrespect intended to anyone. Just being honest.

Bob.

I am not of the Utah culture and frankly it offends me to be portrayed as a racist because I do not subscribe to your view of this issue. It also offends me to be asked to give an apology for something that I had nothing to do with.

You may have settled the issue in your own mind but the reasons for the priesthood ban are far from being a cut and dried settled issue. There is still a lot of legitimate questioning as to the reasons.

[mfbukowski]

I took the liberty of emailing Marvin Perkins and sent him a link to this thread, and he asked me to reply, as shown below, I only edited the salutation which includes some of my personal information:

I couldn’t see how to respond to this post and am about to go relax. Would you post the following response for me?

Hi, this is Marvin Perkins and I can truly appreciate all the comments, including those that had a problem with the statement(s) in the press attributed to me, seeing that we each are at different stages in our understanding of these sensitive issues, based upon the diligence we’ve applied in prayerfully seeking out truth.

As for the article, there are many misquotes. The one regarding the reason for the restriction is a misquote, the one about personal reasons is accurate and true. I’ve spent over 24 years prayerfully seeking guidance from the Lord, through the scriptures and I’m happy to share my experiences with any who sincerely want to know. For any who would like, I’ll host a conference call to take you through scriptures and history to give you some items to study, pray about and receive your own testimony from the Lord. And Bob, you’re right, we need a plan. I’m here to tell you that we’ve had one in place for the past several years and it’s working beautifully. We’re seeing hundreds per year being baptized and reactivated through our efforts.

Those interested in the conference call, simply send me an email at Marvin@BlacksintheScriptures.com and copy this message into the email and we’ll set up a day and time to have the call.

Thank you all for your efforts and desires to have good come about.

Marvin Perkins

Marvin Perkins

Blacks In The Scriptures

www.BlacksintheScriptures.com

"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing"

If there is anything I can do to help facilitate such an event, I would love to help.

[Calm]

Brilliant.

[mfbukowski]

Brilliant.

I take it you would be interested in the conference call. I know this has been a topic widely discussed on this board and also really value Marvin's willingness to do this.

Anyone else interested? Any discussion on the best way to publicize/set this thing up?

[jwhitlock]

I take it you would be interested in the conference call. I know this has been a topic widely discussed on this board and also really value Marvin's willingness to do this.

Anyone else interested? Any discussion on the best way to publicize/set this thing up?

I'm very interested; Skype can be used to set up a conference call on it.

[Log]

I'm interested in seeing the transcript. However, it appears Marvin's position probably cannot be concretely established via historical evidence, from what he's written.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Log

[Bob Oliverio]

Bob.

I am not of the Utah culture and frankly it offends me to be portrayed as a racist because I do not subscribe to your view of this issue. It also offends me to be asked to give an apology for something that I had nothing to do with.

You may have settled the issue in your own mind but the reasons for the priesthood ban are far from being a cut and dried settled issue. There is still a lot of legitimate questioning as to the reasons.

I really see no accusation toward you, in any of my posts here, as you or anyone else being racist.  As I mentioned in my earlier post within this thread, I have come to understand and recognize the persecution complex of the Mormon culture.   And admitting no actual knowledge of what drove your defensive attitude, perhaps that persecution complex may be part of it.  But I really don't know nor understand the basis of your claim.

But as I have been very clear about in the past, no individual members, including myself, should ever feel the least bit guilty for institutional positions the Church held in the past.  But I do strongly believe the institution of the Church should finally realize the historical facts and recognize why an apology would be so uplifting to the progress and respect for the the institution going forward.

If there is anything I can do to help facilitate such an event' date=' I would love to help. [/quote']

I think it would be great to give Mr. Perkins his own thread to share his thoughts and explanations.  If he is only willing to do a conference call would he be open to other African American groups participating?

[Calm]

I would love to do it, but may not be available....sleep and family is really screwed up right now so long term and even short term (as in next day) planning is out of the question right now, send up a signal when it's going to happen and if I can tag along I will.

Write to FAIR with the invite, I imagine some there would be very interested.

[Calm]

I'm interested in seeing the transcript. However, it appears Marvin's position probably cannot be concretely established via historical evidence, from what he's written.

I'm more interested in this part:

I’m here to tell you that we’ve had one in place for the past several years and it’s working beautifully.