The Catholic Herald....Mormons Are Not Christian

[pcarthew]

The article found here:

http://www.catholich...aAoN9366I.email

I want to say upfront, they are entitled to their opinion.

I do not understand why "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" referred to as the Mormon Church in this article, as not being Christian.

What does the church have to do, not necessarily to be accepted, but have those of other religions stop telling us we do not believe in the real Christ.

I have search the scriptures for many years, I have not found one reference to a "holy trinity" or a "triune God" on any page of scripture. In fact I think even the most casual reading of the Holy Bible would indicate that, God the Father worked as one with Jesus Christ and there holy works testified of and verified by the Holy Ghost. Both casual and close reading of the scriptures clearly indicates the closeness and single purpose of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

The very first Article of Faith:

"We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."

We believe in a resurrected Jesus Christ with a glorified body of flesh and bone, who is the saviour and redeemer of all mankind and through Him and by Him all will be brought before God to be righteously Judged of Him and the Father.

We only worship this Godhead, we worship no other Gods.

I find almost amusing how many people try with all the might of their heart to tell the world we are not Christian, while not even baring his most sacred and holy name.

I have come to believe that most of these type articles are born or bigotry, and of those with lazy minds. The information about our being Christian is available for all and anyone, who, with an honest and enquiring mind, may not agree with all we believe but will surely come to know, that members of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" are truly devout christians, and a people who love and testify of their Saviour Jesus the Christ.

Edited April 14, 2012 by pcarthew

[TheSkepticChristian]

By definition a Christian is, "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/christian

and Christianity is "the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices"

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/Christianity?region=us&q=Christianity

They shouldn't state their opinions as facts, they are just making their own definitions.

[zerinus]

The article found here:

http://www.catholich...aAoN9366I.email

I want to say upfront, they are entitled to their opinion.

I do not understand why "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" referred to as the Mormon Church in this article, as not being Christian.

What does the church have to do, not necessarily to be accepted, but have those of other religions stop telling us we do not believe in the real Christ.

I have search the scriptures for many years, I have not found one reference to a "holy trinity" or a "triune God" on any page of scripture. In fact I think even the most casual reading of the Holy Bible would indicate that, God the Father worked as one with Jesus Christ and there holy works testified of and verified by the Holy Ghost. Both casual and close reading of the scriptures clearly indicates the closeness and single purpose of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

The very first Article of Faith:

"We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."

We believe in a resurrected Jesus Christ with a glorified body of flesh and bone, who is the saviour and redeemer of all mankind and through Him and by Him all will be brought before God to be righteously Judged of Him and the Father.

We only worship this Godhead, we worship no other Gods.

I find almost amusing how many people try with all the might of their heart to tell the world we are not Christian, while not even baring his most sacred and holy name.

I have come to believe that most of these type articles are born or bigotry, and of those with lazy minds. The information about our being Christian is available for all and anyone, who, with an honest and enquiring mind, may not agree with all we believe but will surely come to know, that members of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" are truly devout christians, and a people who love and testify of their Saviour Jesus the Christ.

I am not really all that bothered by any of this; not sure why other people are. "Mormons are't Christians" is old hat. After the Church's explanation, nobody can be repeating this without having malicious intent; and if someone has malicious intent, it is no good arguing with them. It is the Church's job to reply to that, which they have already done; therefore no additional explanation by others is required.

[altersteve]

I'd like to know how anyone who has honestly studied Mormonism can actually claim, as this article does, that Mormons deny the divinity of Christ. Blows my mind.

[ChristKnight]

I'd like to know how anyone who has honestly studied Mormonism can actually claim, as this article does, that Mormons deny the divinity of Christ. Blows my mind.

Agreed, I always laugh at that.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Agreed, I always laugh at that.

They cannot even prove that they are "true" Christians, they should just keep their opinions to their-self

[TheSkepticChristian]

Maybe they accuse our church of not being christian, because they are afraid that they might not be "true" Christians.

[pcarthew]

I am not really all that bothered by any of this; not sure why other people are. "Mormons are't Christians" is old hat. After the Church's explanation, nobody can be repeating this without having malicious intent; and if someone has malicious intent, it is no good arguing with them. It is the Church's job to reply to that, which they have already done; therefore no additional explanation by others is required.

I am note bothered in an annoyed way, I suppose I just marvel at the bigotry of those who profess to know Christ far better that we. I agree with everything you say, apart from it is the church's job to reply, as covenanted members of Christ's church we are all encumbered to always testify and preach of Christ. There is no single statement that the Church has made or explained a position on our Christianity that that would have us not continue explain to anyone that we are christian.

[kolipoki09]

I have come to believe that most of these type articles are born or bigotry, and of those with lazy minds. The information about our being Christian is available for all and anyone, who, with an honest and enquiring mind, may not agree with all we believe but will surely come to know, that members of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" are truly devout christians, and a people who love and testify of their Saviour Jesus the Christ.

To be intellectually honest, we differ with our Catholic friends about the nature and kind of being that Christ was. Our doctrine is at odds with their conception of who Christ was and is. Indeed, we share common values and even similar beliefs and interpretations rooted in the Bible, but ours is a faith informed by the Restoration tradition, just as theirs is largely informed by a reading of the New Testament through the lens of neoplatonic philosophy.

Latter-day Saints essentially say the same thing when they make the "only true Church" claim. We can say all we want about our shared beliefs rooted within the larger Judeo-Christian tradition, but by saying that salvation in its fullest extent is only available through Christ via The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we're denying that our neighbors and friends believe in the truest and most real Christianity.

I don't dispute that Latter-day Saints fit within the larger umbrella of Christendom, but comments such as those featured in the Catholic Herald must be understood in light of the fact that our beliefs about Christ (while in many ways similar) are different enough to be excluded from the beliefs of post-Nicene Christianity. If Catholics aren't comfortable with calling me a Christian, I'm okay with that. I live out my faith by trying to do the things that Christ did and treating others with compassion and tolerance. Someone else's conception of what my faith is and isn't has no bearing on what I personally believe, or my commitment to follow Christ grace to grace.

We don't prove to people that we're Christians by pointing out the name of the Church ad nauseam. We prove all things by our faith and by the fruits of that faith.

[ChristKnight]

To be intellectually honest, we differ with our Catholic friends about the nature and kind of being that Christ was. Our doctrine is at odds with their conception of who Christ was and is. Indeed, we share common values and even similar beliefs and interpretations rooted in the Bible, but ours is a faith informed by the Restoration tradition, just as theirs is largely informed by a reading of the New Testament through the lens of neoplatonic philosophy.

Latter-day Saints essentially say the same thing when they make the "only true Church" claim. We can say all we want about our shared beliefs rooted within the larger Judeo-Christian tradition, but by saying that salvation in its fullest extent is only available through Christ via The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we're denying that our neighbors and friends believe in the truest and most real Christianity.

I don't dispute that Latter-day Saints fit within the larger umbrella of Christendom, but comments such as those featured in the Catholic Herald must be understood in light of the fact that our beliefs about Christ (while in many ways similar) are different enough to be excluded from the beliefs of post-Nicene Christianity. If Catholics aren't comfortable with calling me a Christian, I'm okay with that. I live out my faith by trying to do the things that Christ did and treating others with compassion and tolerance. Someone else's conception of what my faith is and isn't has no bearing on what I personally believe, or my commitment to follow Christ grace to grace.

We don't prove to people that we're Christians by pointing out the name of the Church ad nauseam. We prove all things by our faith and by the fruits of that faith.

I agree with this.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Catholics and Evangelicals have their beliefs and opinions, they shouldn't state them as facts

[kolipoki09]

Catholics and Evangelicals have their beliefs and opinions, they shouldn't state them as facts

Until I tried to understand things from their perspective and began to figure out what they were really trying to say, I felt the same way.

But like us, they sometimes have a hard time articulating those differences, so it's easier to just claim that their's is the purest form of Christendom and acknowledge that others don't share that belief. They're not denying that Mormons believe in good morals or even that Mormons have a certain idea about what Christ was and is.

Stephen Robinson's "Are Mormons Christians?" has a section on this that might be worth checking out. While I've largely disagreed with Robinson's treatment of LDS beliefs about divine grace and salvation, I do agree with him that Latter-day Saints certainly don't fit into the post-Nicene Christian tradition, which is, by most standards, the measuring rod by which many churches define Christianity.

[pcarthew]

To be intellectually honest, we differ with our Catholic friends about the nature and kind of being that Christ was. Our doctrine is at odds with their conception of who Christ was and is. Indeed, we share common values and even similar beliefs and interpretations rooted in the Bible, but ours is a faith informed by the Restoration tradition, just as theirs is largely informed by a reading of the New Testament through the lens of neoplatonic philosophy.

Latter-day Saints essentially say the same thing when they make the "only true Church" claim. We can say all we want about our shared beliefs rooted within the larger Judeo-Christian tradition, but by saying that salvation in its fullest extent is only available through Christ via The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we're denying that our neighbors and friends believe in the truest and most real Christianity.

I don't dispute that Latter-day Saints fit within the larger umbrella of Christendom, but comments such as those featured in the Catholic Herald must be understood in light of the fact that our beliefs about Christ (while in many ways similar) are different enough to be excluded from the beliefs of post-Nicene Christianity. If Catholics aren't comfortable with calling me a Christian, I'm okay with that. I live out my faith by trying to do the things that Christ did and treating others with compassion and tolerance. Someone else's conception of what my faith is and isn't has no bearing on what I personally believe, or my commitment to follow Christ grace to grace.

We don't prove to people that we're Christians by pointing out the name of the Church ad nauseam. We prove all things by our faith and by the fruits of that faith.

I don't particularly disagree with most of what you say. I was just pointing out the blatant "you are not christian stance" is somewhat bigoted. I don't see too many LDS scholars trying to point out to the rest of the Christendom that they are not Christian, neither have I pointed out ad nauseam the Church's name. I think it is only fair and proper to us the correct name of the church. The name of the church is doctrinally essential no matter what anyone says or thinks. Salvation is found in the ordinances of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and no one will enter back in to the presence of the Lord eternally, who has not accepted those ordinances. That is why we have the blessings of the temple. No one will be denied the full blessings of exhalation, they are made available to all through a merciful and loving God.

[thesometimesaint]

Something about stones and glass houses.

[LDS_RM]

on mission I came to accept that the religious world will create its own definitions, and the religious world, specific Catholic/Protestant, created a definition for "Christian". The LDS do not believe in a God head based on the Nicean or other Creeds. So in the end I am not too concerned if other religious people do not consider me Christian, none of those people will be my advocate with the Father.

[Peppermint Patty]

If I had a dime for everytime I heard that we are not Christians.....

This situation is getting better. Currently, several churches who previously taught that LDS were not Christians have come out and publicly changed their opinions. All we can do as LDS is keep living good, clean, charitable and Christian lives. Eventually, most churches will come around and realize that the LDS represent many of the best parts of Christianity.

[Bikeemikey]

For those who believe in their faith Christianity is defined by God. Just as many things in our religion are not for man to change, this is true for other faiths. Included in this is for the Catholics and others is what's makes one Christian.

We can't be Christian because they believe God has revealed what it means to be Christian and we don't fit. Believing in a being called Christ is not sufficient. You must also believe specifics about who and what that being is. The LDS view of God-Christ is fundamentally different from their "revealed" understanding, therefore we are out.

Remember just because we believe we are the only church with revealed truth doesn't mean other don't think they are as well.

For me I am happy not being the kind of Christian Catholics have in mind. My beliefs and understanding are fundamentally different from theirs.

Mormons are believers in Christ, but by almost any traditional measure of Christianity that goes deeper than the name Christ, we are not Christian.

(null)

Edited April 15, 2012 by Bikeemikey

[Hamilton Porter]

Look at it this way, at least Catholics aren't obnoxious and don't run anti-Mormon ministries.

[selek1]

Latter-day Saints essentially say the same thing when they make the "only true Church" claim. We can say all we want about our shared beliefs rooted within the larger Judeo-Christian tradition, but by saying that salvation in its fullest extent is only available through Christ via The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we're denying that our neighbors and friends believe in the truest and most real Christianity.

This is a rather silly attempt at special pleading.

That we claim to have more truth does not mean we are denying the sincerity or discipleship of Catholics.

You are conflating contradiction with persecution.

We do not, and have not, denied that they are followers of Christ. Pity that the reverse is not true.

Beleiving in "the truest and most real Christiantity" is not a part of the definition of "Christian".

By repeating such folklore, you are buying into and enabling an intellectually dishonest attempt to hijack the definition for polemical purposes.

With your post above, you are also attempting to project that sin onto the Latter-day Saint community as a whole- a sort of lame, "well, you guys do it too" defense.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

The Church has very publically repudiated such nonsense- and has done so at least since Brigham Young.

I don't dispute that Latter-day Saints fit within the larger umbrella of Christendom, but comments such as those featured in the Catholic Herald must be understood in light of the fact that our beliefs about Christ (while in many ways similar) are different enough to be excluded from the beliefs of post-Nicene Christianity.

And yet the Nicene Creed is NOT included in the definition of "Christian".

Polemicists have tried for centuries to define "Christian" as "someone who believes exactly as I do."

And outside of isolated echo chambers, they have failed miserably.

The article in the OP is no different- no matter how one tries to justify their arguments.

If Catholics aren't comfortable with calling me a Christian, I'm okay with that.

Dhimmism aside, neither the Catholics nor the Evangelicals own the definition of Christian- and as such, they have neither the right nor the privilege to redefine words to suit their agendas.

Enabling such attempts is not merely intellectually dishonest- it is hypocritical.

I live out my faith by trying to do the things that Christ did and treating others with compassion and tolerance. Someone else's conception of what my faith is and isn't has no bearing on what I personally believe, or my commitment to follow Christ grace to grace.

This is a laudible goal, but is a separate issue from the dishonest attempts to hijack a word and an entire faith for sectarian polemical purposes.

We don't prove to people that we're Christians by pointing out the name of the Church ad nauseam. We prove all things by our faith and by the fruits of that faith.

True- but irrelevant.

The term "Christian" has a very specific (and comparatively broad) meaning.

Being a "Christian" and turning the other cheek does not require us to ignore error, nor does it requires us to turn a blind eye to wilfull bigotry and intentional deceit.

The Latter-day Saint faith meets every reasonable and commonly accepted definition of the word "Christian".

To argue otherwise, one must redefine the word itself to suit an ideological agenda.

Edited April 15, 2012 by selek1

[blackstrap]

Were there not a lot of wars during the Dark and Middle ages and even later between Catholics and Protestants or others over who were the 'True Christians'?It is only in recent times that most of the Protestants and Catholics have begrugingly allowed each other to be true Christians. Give them a while ( a couple of hundred more years at least) to accept us as such.

[blueadept]

Look at it this way, at least Catholics aren't obnoxious and don't run anti-Mormon ministries.

Have you checked out the Catholic boards where some of the Catholics were former LDS? It may not be a anti-Mormon ministry but it comes close IMO.

[kolipoki09]

This is a rather silly attempt at special pleading.

That we claim to have more truth does not mean we are denying the sincerity or discipleship of Catholics.

You are conflating contradiction with persecution.

We do not, and have not, denied that they are followers of Christ. Pity that the reverse is not true.

Are Catholics denying the sincerity and good works of the Mormon faith? The real question is, do Catholics deny that Mormons are followers of Christ per se, or do they (correctly) deny that Mormons are followers of their conception of Christ?

Beleiving in "the truest and most real Christiantity" is not a part of the definition of "Christian".

By repeating such folklore, you are buying into and enabling an intellectually dishonest attempt to hijack the definition for polemical purposes.

With your post above, you are also attempting to project that sin onto the Latter-day Saint community as a whole- a sort of lame, "well, you guys do it too" defense.

When you're claiming to be a "true" Christian, it follows that you claim access to the "truest and most real Christianity." We can say all we want about the sincerity and good works of our Catholic and Protestant friends, but to many of them, claiming that we're the "only true Church" is just as offensive to them as it is to us when we're excluded from being called "Christians."

And yet the Nicene Creed is NOT included in the definition of "Christian".

Polemicists have tried for centuries to define "Christian" as "someone who believes exactly as I do."

And outside of isolated echo chambers, they have failed miserably.

I'd say all faiths have the right to define "Christian" as they understand it,

aside. People can either accept or reject LDS claims to be within Christianity. As a Latter-day Saint, I would hope that people would consider me a Christian, but I can understand from a traditional and theological perspective why a large segment of Christendom would not consider me so. The fact is, I believe I've accepted the claims of the Old and New Testaments about the personhood of Jesus Christ. I rest my faith on that. I have yet to encounter anything that has caused me to seriously question that commitment. Others can say what they want about Mormonism, but it doesn't change how I personally view my faith. I guess my point is, if you're truly committed to the claims of the LDS Church and to its unique conception of who Christ is, does it really matter that much what other people think about it? LDS authors and scholars have devoted scores of volumes to the question of Mormonism's relation to Christianity, many of which are valuable. However, even with some very good scholarship on the matter, it really hasn't budged public opinion. Hence, why I believe the best way we can exhibit our belief in Christ is by following Him in word and deed. If people don't accept that, it's their problem.

[why me]

Have you checked out the Catholic boards where some of the Catholics were former LDS? It may not be a anti-Mormon ministry but it comes close IMO.

You are correct. In fact, I think that that site is antimormon since they have tracts dealing with mormonism that are extremely negative. And some of the catholic posters who comment about mormons and mormonism would make posters from the exmormon site look tame.

[selek1]

The real question is, do Catholics deny that Mormons are followers of Christ per se, or do they (correctly) deny that Mormons are followers of their conception of Christ?

When they say we are not "Christian", they are saying we are not followers of Christ.

The qualifiers about "their conception of Christ" is mere weasel-wording to justify their special pleading.

When you're claiming to be a "true" Christian, it follows that you claim access to the "truest and most real Christianity."

And yet "true Christian" isn't the definition being argued. We are discussing "Christian" without the artful and disingenuous qualifiers.

More ironically, you continue to put words in the mouths of Latter-day Saints.

I have never heard a faithful Latter-day Saint talk about being a "true" Christian while others a "false" Christians.

We simply claim what is indisputable to the honest observer: that we, as a people, are followers and disciples of Jesus Christ.

We can say all we want about the sincerity and good works of our Catholic and Protestant friends, but to many of them, claiming that we're the "only true Church" is just as offensive to them as it is to us when we're excluded from being called "Christians."

Again, this is a rather silly and tendentious "so's your Mama"-type excuse.

You continue to conflate contradiction with persecution- and have no rationale or logical reason to do so, save that it advances your agenda.

I'd say all faiths have the right to define "Christian" as they understand it,

aside.

This is an irrational and counterproductive position. The purpose of language is to communicate ideas accurately and clearly.

The idea that people get to arbitrarily redefine words simply to suit their agenda is so absurd that even Lewis Carroll mocked it.

People can either accept or reject LDS claims to be within Christianity.

I agree,

They do not, however, have the right to arbitrarily redefine what the word means simply to support their prejudices.

Edited April 15, 2012 by selek1

[Storm Rider]

Have you checked out the Catholic boards where some of the Catholics were former LDS? It may not be a anti-Mormon ministry but it comes close IMO.

Blue is correct; you will not find anything worse on the internet as you find on the Catholic discussion board by those who state they were previously Mormon. It is very difficult for me to believe in their claim of previous membership given their total and complete lack of any understanding of LDS theology, belief, or discipleship. worse, their example screams they follow the teacher of lies and contention. These are they whose oil has long since been used up and will be left wanting when the bridegroom comes.

I have come to accept that ignorance in the world is the default condition of almost all religious people. Ignorance of their own church's teachings and ignorance about the teachings of all other churches. Once you get beyond the teachings of the Apostles Creed, it quickly becomes clear that most of us have an abysmal understanding of religious teachings.

It is true that at one time I expected more out of the Catholic Church, but I have concluded that it, as an institution, is just as corrupt and lacking as any other institution of man. She will fight against the Church of Jesus Christ just as assuredly as any other of the organizations of men. Thankfully, as individuals, we may stand together as disciples of Christ and value the examples of holiness found within these other groups.