The Catholic Herald....Mormons Are Not Christian

[Pahoran]

I didn't read past your petty insult. So if you asked me any question, don't expect a response.

So you replied to tell me you weren't going to reply.

And you view this as a productive use of your time, do you?

Regards,

Pahoran

[mfbukowski]

I agree. I still browse the main one at times, and it's really sad. When certain ex-Mormons post there, it reminds me of CARM, and they don't even see that. Sadly I thought this even when I was still an active and believing Catholic posting there. I couldn't imagine posting there now.

It is really sad. As you may remember I did my time over there and am not proud of all that I said there, but when something like this comes out, it takes about all I can muster to remain silent.

Turning the other cheek is not my strong point.

Edited April 18, 2012 by mfbukowski

[why me]

Never had a catholic or protestant missionary knock on my door. Tell you what, if that happens, I will them I am Mormon and report back.

They may not go door to door but they are out there. We need to remember that when the Soviet Union fell, protestants of various shades went there to recruit for their church. And protestant churches began to sprout up. And Africa is still fertile ground for protestant and catholic missionaries. But they do have a different strategy than the mormons for doing missionary work. But they are not going to claim that they don't have the truth and the light.

Edited April 18, 2012 by why me

[Jaybear]

They may not go door to door but they are out there. We need to remember that when the Soviet Union fell, protestants of various shades went there to recruit for their church. And protestant churches began to sprout up. And Africa is still fertile ground for protestant and catholic missionaries. But they do have a different strategy than the mormons for doing missionary work. But they are not going to claim that they don't have the truth and the light.

You asked: When they are doing their missionary work do they tell perspective converts that their faith is not true or do they tell their perspective converts that they have the truth and the light?

Sounds like you have your answer. I doubt very much that catholic missionaries in Africa and the former soviet union have a strategy for dealing with prospective Mormon converts, let alone have a strategy in place that has the missionary telling the prospective African Mormon that the Mormon faith is not "true."

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

Is a person who uses Newtonian physics using a true principle?

Is a person who uses Einsteinian physics using a true principle?

Is a person who uses Quantum Mechanics using a true principle?

They can each be right, but have very different perspectives and results.

[Jaybear]

Jaybear:

Is a person who uses Newtonian physics using a true principle?

Is a person who uses Einsteinian physics using a true principle?

Is a person who uses Quantum Mechanics using a true principle?

They can each be right, but have very different perspectives and results.

I am not sure I follow. Are you are saying I should be wary of anyone claiming that their math is the one and only true math?

[wenglund]

I doubt very much that catholic missionaries in Africa and the former soviet union have a strategy for dealing with prospective Mormon converts, let alone have a strategy in place that has the missionary telling the prospective African Mormon that the Mormon faith is not "true."

I doubt that the Catholic missionaries have name tags with "The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints" written on them.

I doubt they carry a "quad."

I doubt they invite investigators to sacrament meeting or to the stake house.

If someone is of the mind, they could follow your lead and go on for hours coming up with relatively insignificant or meaningless differences between Catholic and LDS missionaries.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

They are all true within their limits. But only one holds all the other truths.

[Jaybear]

If someone is of the mind, they could follow your lead and go on for hours coming up with relatively insignificant or meaningless differences between Catholic and LDS missionaries.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Like I said, I know nothing about catholic missionaries, and never pretended to know what they say and do, or even whether they wear nametags. So please keep me out that game.

My point was simply that all one needs to know:

Catholics don't recognize Mormon baptisms.

EVs don't recognize Mormon baptisms.

Mormons don't recognize Catholic or EV baptisms.

An EV or Catholic who says that Mormons are Christian is simply being PC by using a broader definition of the word than their doctrine recognizes.

[wenglund]

An EV or Catholic who says that Mormons are Christian is simply being PC by using a broader definition of the word than their doctrine recognizes.

Since when does it become PC to use broader, generally authoritative, definitions--particularly within inter-faith discussions? You seem to be confusing effective and reasonable with PC.

Besides, from an LDS standpoint, the fact that we don't recognize EV and Catholic baptism as authorized by God, doesn't mean we don't view those religions as Christian. We do--not that it is any of your business.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jaybear]

Besides, from an LDS standpoint, the fact that we don't recognize EV and Catholic baptism as authorized by God, doesn't mean we don't view those religions as Christian.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Never said otherwise. Mormons don't consider Catholics to be members of Christ's Church, but you will call them "Christian." Hard for you not to, since they were around and called Christians long before Joseph Smith started his church.

[blueadept]

An EV or Catholic who says that Mormons are Christian is simply being PC by using a broader definition of the word than their doctrine recognizes.

Since when does it become PC to use broader, generally authoritative, definitions--particularly within inter-faith discussions? You seem to be confusing effective and reasonable with PC.

I have to agree with Jaybear on this point. In talking to other non-LDS about the Mormon faith, they seem to always bring up the point of you all being non-Christian which is a dialogue killer. I choose to use the broad definition of Christian in participating here. I understand both POV so let's move on. Calling my wife's faith non-Christian is a killer in too many ways to count.

[wenglund]

Never said otherwise. Mormons don't consider Catholics to be members of Christ's Church, but you will call them "Christian." Hard for you not to, since they were around and called Christians long before Joseph Smith started his church.

In terms of rightly being considered as "Christian," it doesn't matter to us when they were around. They could have started up yesterday for all we care--again, not that it is any of your business.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

I have to agree with Jaybear on this point. In talking to other non-LDS about the Mormon faith, they seem to always bring up the point of you all being non-Christian which is a dialogue killer. I choose to use the broad definition of Christian in participating here. I understand both POV so let's move on. Calling my wife's faith non-Christian is a killer in too many ways to count.

Evidently, Jaybear isn't the only one to confuse effective/reasonable with PC.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jaybear]

Evidently, Jaybear isn't the only one to confuse effective/reasonable with PC.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

No, I think you are the one that is confused.

Effective:

Q: What is the most effective way to communicate your religious beliefs:

A: Wade is a Christian.

B: Wade is a Mormon.

Given that a significant portion of the population do not consider Mormons to be Christians, calling yourself a Christian is an wholly ineffective way to communicate your religion.

Reasonable. Please explain why you think its reasonable to demand an EV or Catholic to use term "Christian" in a manner inconsistent with their deeply held religious conviction.

Polite/PC. Yes. Mormons are offended if you say publicly that they are not Christian. If you are engaging in interfaith dialogue, its would be considered rude to say that Mormons are not Christians, even if you don't really believe that Mormons are Christians.

[wenglund]

As I see it, the more compelling question ought be: "Is the 'Church of What's Wrong With the Mormons' (i.e. the church for critics like Jaybear), a Christian church?"

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

No, I think you are the one that is confused.

Effective:

Q: What is the most effective way to communicate your religious beliefs:

A: Wade is a Christian.

B: Wade is a Mormon.

Given that a significant portion of the population do not consider Mormons to be Christians, calling yourself a Christian is an wholly ineffective way to communicate your religion.

Reasonable. Please explain why you think its reasonable to demand an EV or Catholic to use term "Christian" in a manner inconsistent with their deeply held religious conviction.

Polite/PC. Yes. Mormons are offended if you say publicly that they are not Christian. If you are engaging in interfaith dialogue, its would be considered rude to say that Mormons are not Christians, even if you don't really believe that Mormons are Christians.

Here you are now confusing "effective" with "convoluted." Nicely done.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

That is an appeal to Ad Populum. If you want to effectively and accurately communicate then the LDS are a sect within Christianity

Lets stick with the dictionary. If I say the color "green". Regardless of my deeply held religious beliefs it is entirely possible for both of us to imagine a different shade of green, but both are still green.

It is not only rude it is inaccurate to claim the LDS are not Christians regardless of individual belief.

[Jaybear]

Here you are now confusing "effective" with "convoluted." Nicely done.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You are the one, not me, that chose the to use the word effective. So, I will ask you again:

Q: What is the most effective way to communicate your religious beliefs:

A: Wade is a Christian.

B: Wade is a Mormon.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

Which is most effective way to communicate where I live:

A. I live in North America.

B. I live in southern California

[wenglund]

You are the one, not me, that chose the to use the word effective. So, I will ask you again:

Q: What is the most effective way to communicate your religious beliefs:

A: Wade is a Christian.

B: Wade is a Mormon.

You are the one who introduced the words "most" and "way to communicate your religious beliefs," and mistakenly assumed that is what I had in mind (i.e. I have been Jaybeared).

Now, if you wish to ask me a question about how I used the term "effective," I will be happy to answer you. But, I am not about to let you put words into my mouth.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jaybear]

Now, if you wish to ask me a question about how I used the term "effective," I will be happy to answer you. But, I am not about to let you put words into my mouth.

Interesting. I asked you for your personal opinion on what you consider the most effective way to communicate your religious belief to a third party, and you accuse me of putting words in your mouth.

We must be living on different planets.

[Pahoran]

Like I said, I know nothing about catholic missionaries,

Yet it was you who introduced them into the discussion...

and never pretended to know what they say and do, or even whether they wear nametags. So please keep me out that game.

My point was simply that all one needs to know:

Catholics don't recognize Mormon baptisms.

EVs don't recognize Mormon baptisms.

Mormons don't recognize Catholic or EV baptisms.

An EV or Catholic who says that Mormons are Christian is simply being PC by using a broader definition of the word than their doctrine recognizes.

Clearly you assume that "Christian" means something equivalent to "validly baptised." Are you able to support that assumption from any actual sources?

Because, just so you know, "Christian" actually means "a follower of Jesus Christ."

Just so you know, I don't think you'll find any self-described EV Protestants who decide whether someone is "Christian" based upon who (if anyone) baptised them.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Jaybear]

Yet it was you who introduced them into the discussion...

No. It was Why Me who did so in post no. 116.

Clearly you assume that "Christian" means something equivalent to "validly baptised."

Are you able to support that assumption from any actual sources?

No. I define and use the term "Christian" to mean broadly anyone who professes a belief in Jesus Christ.

Because, just so you know, "Christian" actually means "a follower of Jesus Christ."

Thanks, but I am pretty sure that the term "Christian" means different things to different people.

But even with your chosen definition, EVs and Catholics tell me that the "Jesus Christ" that Mormons profess to follow, is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Just so you know, I don't think you'll find any self-described EV Protestants who decide whether someone is "Christian" based upon who (if anyone) baptised them.

I didn't say they did. I simply said they don't consider Mormon baptisms to be valid. If you understand why, you will understand why they don't consider Mormons to be Christians.

My point is that since you don't consider their baptisms to be valid, nor do you consider them to be members of Christ's Church, seems hypocritical to whine that they don't consider Mormons to be part of their club.

[Calm]

Jaybear,

So we can discount the usage of "Christian" by any Protestant or other denomination or individual that chooses to call Catholic "non-Christian" or a "pagan" faith?

edit: for some reason it came up quoting blue's post, rather than jb's

Edited April 18, 2012 by calmoriah