Joseph'S Polyandry

[Thinking]

When the subject of polygamy comes up, Joseph's polyandry is usually used by a critic as evidence against the principle and therefore Joseph Smith. A couple of the more common apologetic explanations that I have read are

• Joseph was sealed, not married, to these women.
  
• The evidence that Joseph consummated any polyandrous sealings is unreliable.
  

This poll is intended to determine what those on this board believe about Joseph's polyandrous sealings.

Please use terminology which respects the board guidlines.

[Storm Rider]

Given that you have limited your question to just polyandry, I don't think he consummated any of those marriages/sealings. I do think that he consummated some of his marriages, but there is little evidence that he consummated very many.

[Evangeline]

Wouldn't the most honest answer be "I don't know," since none of us were there to make observations? Also, the lack of DNA evidence for offspring from these marriages hardly convinces me of the impossibility for the marriages to have been consummated. That line of reasoning makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

Frankly, I would really like to say "no," but in all honesty I can't.

Whatever the case, I'm content to let it remain a mystery.

[Log]

I am tired of these posts which advance no argument and serve simply as a lightning rod for contention.

The polling function should be restricted to Social Hall only.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Log

[Evangeline]

Wouldn't this kind of poll/discussion be useful for apologists to give them an idea of what lines of reasoning honest people will accept or reject?

I'm quite interested to know what the outcome of the poll will be. Of course, it's hardly scientific, but interesting nonetheless.

[why me]

When the subject of polygamy comes up, Joseph's polyandry is usually used by a critic as evidence against the principle and therefore Joseph Smith. A couple of the more common apologetic explanations that I have read are

• Joseph was sealed, not married, to these women.
  
• The evidence that Joseph consummated any polyandrous sealings is unreliable.
  

This poll is intended to determine what those on this board believe about Joseph's polyandrous sealings.

Please use terminology which respects the board guidlines.

There is no proof that he consummated any of the polyandrous marriages. In fact, I would expect that someone who is a sexaholic and a libertine would not be able to keep his mouth shut about sex and his affairs. But joseph was basically from a puritan tradition and this never came into play. And none of the women ever claimed the lust angle with Joseph. In fact, all had great respect for Joseph Smith, including his polyandrous wives. It would be great luck if he was a lustful guy and yet, none of his 33 wives ever claimed so or ever betrayed him after he died by letting the cat out of the bag.

[why me]

Wouldn't this kind of poll/discussion be useful for apologists to give them an idea of what lines of reasoning honest people will accept or reject?

I'm quite interested to know what the outcome of the poll will be. Of course, it's hardly scientific, but interesting nonetheless.

Unfortunately many honest people seem to use presentism when considering this aspect of Joseph's life. The key is to place oneself back in that time period of church history and imagine what exactly was happening. Also, investigate the history of the women involved, their spiritual experiences for accepting plural marriage, and their faithfulness after joseph was murdered. And what these women said about Joseph after he was murdered. Some intent would then be discovered.

[Evangeline]

I think it's entirely possible to have consummated the marriages and not have been a lustful person at the same time.

[Evangeline]

Unfortunately many honest people seem to use presentism when considering this aspect of Joseph's life.

I totally agree with you here. I'm trying my utmost not to judge Joseph Smith and project my own modern sensibilities into his situation, since I firmly believe he was a prophet of God.

[Calm]

Wouldn't this kind of poll/discussion be useful for apologists to give them an idea of what lines of reasoning honest people will accept or reject?

Since the poll does not include "lines of reasoning", not really.

[why me]

I think it's entirely possible to have consummated the marriages and not have been a lustful person at the same time.

Tell that to the critic. If Joseph was in it for the sex, this would not be possible. Both go hand in hand and he would have had a hard time hiding it. My guess would be that he did have sex with some of them but we have no tangible proof that I can tell.

[blueadept]

While there is no proof that Joseph Smith had consumated any of these 'sealings,' the story of Zina Huntington Jacobs leans to me that it was a high possibility.

From wivesofjosephsmith.org

Zina’s first husband, Henry, was aware of this wedding and they continued to live in the same home. He believed that “whatever the Prophet did was right, without making the wisdom of God’s authorities bend to the reasoning of any man.” Over the next few years, Henry was sent on several missions to Chicago, Western New York and Tennessee. Henry missed his family and wrote home often. One of Henry’s missionary companions, John D. Lee, said, “Jacobs was bragging about his wife and two children, what a true, virtuous, lovely woman she was. He almost worshiped her...”.

Shortly after Joseph Smith’s death in 1844, Zina married Brigham Young. In May of 1846, Henry was sent on a mission to England. In Henry’s absence, Zina began to live openly as Brigham’s wife and remained so throughout her life in Utah. Henry seemed to struggle with this arrangement and later wrote to Zina, “...the same affection is there...But I feel alone...I do not Blame Eny person...may the Lord our Father bless Brother Brigham...all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our God Joseph.”

So she had two children from Henry Jacobs and one daughter from Brigham Young (Zina Young). IMO, the chances that Joseph Smith consumated this sealing is rather high. I'm glad that LDS do not have any issues with Joseph Smith being sealed to other LDS men's wives....good for you.

Edited April 12, 2012 by blueadept

[cdowis]

When the subject of polygamy comes up, Joseph's polyandry is usually used by a critic as evidence against the principle and therefore Joseph Smith. A couple of the more common apologetic explanations that I have read are [sealings]

(snip)

While this may apply to those who were already married, it is clear to me, considering his considerable hesitation, that the Lord expected Joseph to have multiple marriages in the traditional sense.T

He did not try to justify it with scriptures but as a direct revelation. Some have quoted Paul, but Paul is not here. The issue is whether JS was a prophet and received revelation. No need to apologize, nor contend with the scribes and Pharasees.

Edited April 12, 2012 by cdowis

[Evangeline]

Since the poll does not include "lines of reasoning", not really.

I understand this. I assumed that the discussion area was an opportunity to express one's thoughts on the matter however.

A lot of people obviously have some cognitive dissonance with regard to the subject (including myself), so if I were an apologist, I would want to get as many people's perspectives as possible (and I mean the perspectives of those HONESTLY seeking answers).

[Evangeline]

Tell that to the critic. If Joseph was in it for the sex, this would not be possible. Both go hand in hand

I'm willing to allow God to determine what is possible and not possible in this situation.

[Buzzard]

While there is no proof that Joseph Smith had consumated any of these 'sealings,' the story of Zina Huntington Jacobs leans to me that it was a high possibility.

From wivesofjosephsmith.org

IMO, the chances that Joseph Smith consumated this sealing is rather high. I'm glad that LDS do not have any issues with Joseph Smith being sealed to other LDS men's wives....good for you.

I'm not surprised that you-and many LDS, for that matter-don't understand the way sealings were performed in the early days of the church. I probably have an imperfect understanding myself. But it was no uncommon for people-sisters and brothers-to be sealed to the prophet or one of the leading church authorities as a way of ensuring their inclusion in the great celestial family in the world to come. Many were single, but not all were. And this was not exclusive to JS or BY. But these sealings were not considered marriages in the full sense of the word, though in the case of sisters being sealed to bretheren, it was more than an adoption. I do know that about the same time that polygamy was discontinued, these sealings stopped as well, so the two practices seem to have been interrelated. BTW, I do not share your opinion about JS consummating his polyandrous sealings.

[DBMormon]

The record we have on Jospeh is sketchy. We have one sealed women stating to her daughter on her deathbed that she is joseph's child. Joseph was fertile and yet no known children that we have 100% certainity with. I am more concerned over Brigham Young living openly with Henry Jacob's wife Zina.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm glad that LDS do not have any issues with Joseph Smith being sealed to other LDS men's wives....good for you.

I have to point this out, because it is a big deal but a marriage and a sealing are 2 different things. You can be sealed and not married. But a marriage in the temple is always sealed. I wish people would not conflate the 2.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[blueadept]

BTW, I do not share your opinion about JS consummating his polyandrous sealings.

So man #1, Henry Jacobs, has two 2 children and man #3, Brigham Young, has one child but Joseph Smith didn't consumate his sealing with Zina. I agree that we will never really know.

So are you saying that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had different understandings of these relationships and therefore practiced it differently? Why would that happen?

[blueadept]

I have to point this out, because it is a big deal but a marriage and a sealing are 2 different things. You can be sealed and not married. But a marriage in the temple is always sealed. I wish people would not conflate the 2.

I respectfully used the word 'sealed' in regards to the best LDS understanding of this.....just saying

[Minos]

Topics we don't allow:

Sexually themed threads. These tend to become distasteful and we have some younger participants. Discussing sexual behavior of LDS leaders, past or present, will not be allowed. http://www.mormondialogue.org/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules